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Decentralized mixing

darkstrike420

Active member
I think the current approach of mixing is not as secure as you would want it to be.

Currently its centralized, correct? The masternode approach is really bad. A masternode costs 1000 DRK. Currently, a DRK costs 2.2 USD. Now imagine if a government agency invested a million. That is 454545 DRK. Divide it by a 1000 and they have 454 masternodes. 454 masternodes would already give them a very high chance of getting all of coins to get "anonymized" through their nodes and they would know the source and destination of payment. Who can buy more masternodes? The users or government agencies? They are already investing millions in Tor relays to keep track of everyone, who is stopping them of doing this to Darkcoin? If they invested 10 million, at current rate they would have 4540 masternodes which means 99.99% transactions would go through them.

I think the best way to fix this is decentralized mixing. Allow everyone who own a wallet to be part of the mixing and receive fees from the mix. I think that 8 rounds of mixing is not enough too and this limit should be removed. The Neutrino approach sounds pretty good too, their network is behind tor hidden services which is another layer of privacy obviously.

Developers, please correct me if I am wrong.
 
If the government wanted 454,545 DRK coins it would not cost them $2.20 usd each. The market supply is very low and would quickly be exhausted. If someone wanted to get this many dark in a short period of time the price & marketcap would probably go higher than bitcoin. So yes your theory is incorrect.
 
Doing it your way, 'the government' or anyone else could also just fire up seven hundred thousand wallets and try and snoop traffic that way, at almost zero cost.

And you are not limited to 8 rounds, you can go on passing your DRK through DS+ as long as you like, or can afford.
 
If the government wanted 454,545 DRK coins it would not cost them $2.20 usd each. The market supply is very low and would quickly be exhausted. If someone wanted to get this many dark in a short period of time the price & marketcap would probably go higher than bitcoin. So yes your theory is incorrect.

Yes, please... someone go and buy a few thousand MN right now !
 
Doing it your way, 'the government' or anyone else could also just fire up seven hundred thousand wallets and try and snoop traffic that way, at almost zero cost.

And you are not limited to 8 rounds, you can go on passing your DRK through DS+ as long as you like, or can afford.
This.
 
Doing it your way, 'the government' or anyone else could also just fire up seven hundred thousand wallets and try and snoop traffic that way, at almost zero cost.

And you are not limited to 8 rounds, you can go on passing your DRK through DS+ as long as you like, or can afford.

Sure. Who can buy more masternode? Normal people or government agencys who have billions just waiting to be spent? :)

I am just saying that with current approach Darkcoin is just another altcoin.

You could optimize it for each round to be at a different country. Its more likely that there will be a user per each country than a lot of government wallets on each country.
 
Sure. Who can buy more masternode? Normal people or government agencys who have billions just waiting to be spent? :)

I am just saying that with current approach Darkcoin is just another altcoin.
Your numbers argument is bogus.

For the cost of one Masternode I could run tens of thousands of POS wallets, or instances of bitcoind, whatever.

How many wallets are there online right now for whatever's the most popular POS coin? I could swamp those numbers with a second hand server off ebay for a few hundred bucks.

FFS I could bring any cryptonote network crashing down in within minutes with a shoebox full of Raspberry Pi's. Don't give me ideas... :tongue:

Which is the cheaper and easier target?
 
This really is a straw-man argument. With the amount of money (tens of billions; hundreds of billions if they were really desperate) first-world governments can spend, no crypto is safe. Not even Bitcoin.
 
I thought about this more and I think I have come to the solution.

Lets compare the Darkcoin masternode network to Tor.

To successfully deanonymize TOR you need to own the Entry node and Exit node then you know the source of traffic(you get this information from Entry node) and the destination and the actual traffic(from Exit node). To solve this, you setup your own Exit node(which is free) and ask tor to explicitly use it as an exit node. Now you cant apply timing based attacks and you can never figure out the actual traffic and destination.

We could easily apply the same technique to Darkcoin but only if being mart of mixers would be free. Of course if it remains paid its still possible but a lot harder for people who don't have DRK1000. If Evan gave us the option to choose one masternode(yourself or any other masternode you trust and know 100% won't give your anonymity away) from the rounds then Darksend would be as anonymous as you can possibly get. Because to deanonymize a darksend transaction you have to own all the masternodes that were involved in mixing, correct?
 
Sure. Who can buy more masternode? Normal people or government agencys who have billions just waiting to be spent? :)
I wouldnt mind to sell out all my darkcoin to the government agencies for a couple of millions.

We could simply pass on and create a new coin with the new achieved investments. And we will be always one step ahead :)
 
I wouldnt mind to sell out all my darkcoin to the government agencies for a couple of millions.

We could simply pass on and create a new coin with the new achieved investments. And we will be always one step ahead :)

If this is Darkcoin gameplan then announce it on BTCTalk so no one even downloads the wallet.

If you will stay with current system, how is it any different from Bitcoin when Darkcoin becomes big and Government begins to buy massive amounts of Masternodes to defeat Darksend?

Having 1 out of billion chance to have your coins anonymized is definitely revolutionary.
 
If this is Darkcoin gameplan then announce it on BTCTalk so no one even downloads the wallet.

If you will stay with current system, how is it any different from Bitcoin when Darkcoin becomes big and Government begins to buy massive amounts of Masternodes to defeat Darksend?

Having 1 out of billion chance to have your coins anonymized is definitely revolutionary.
I was kidding obviously.

If the government owns 90% of the masternodes to spy on me I would probably set the number of darksend-rounds to 32, 64 or even higher. This system is working so well...
 
I was kidding obviously.

If the government owns 90% of the masternodes to spy on me I would probably set the number of darksend-rounds to 32, 64 or even higher. This system is working so well...

What if they own 99.99%? Setting the rounds to 512 will still leave you with that chance of not having anonymous coins.
 
Now we are leaving the realism zone.

Why? You think government is poor and don't have massive amounts of money to spend on shit no one but they care about?

I am just saying that no one will move from BTC to DRK as their primary coin if you just offer 1-10% chance of having anonymous coins. No one gives a fuck about 10%. The darksend would be working if government wouldn't exist lol.
 
Why? You think government is poor and don't have massive amounts of money to spend on shit no one but they care about?
No money available in the world can buy enough DRK to controll the whole masternode network. And that's why I oppose your initial statement, darkcoin masternodes are actually decentralized. As decentralized as mining.
 
No money available in the world can buy enough DRK to controll the whole masternode network. And that's why I oppose your initial statement, darkcoin masternodes are actually decentralized. As decentralized as mining.

Ok lets move out of "unrealistic" as you say.

Lets say they buy a hundred. Thats pretty realistic right? Now that still gives them % chance of deanonymizing your coins. That is still percent.

Its like using Tor without ur own Exit node thinking "ehh no one cares about me". Sure no one will deanonymize your coins if nobody cares about you. Sure your solution is use more rounds. But that is still percent. You have to trust the system. Its not even trust, you have to hope you're not running your coins through government nodes. Darksend really now is just hope.

A funny comparement, Darksend vs Bank robbery
- You go to bank without a mask, kill everyone, take all money and hope the cameras were off.
 
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What is better? Hope or your own choice? Random masternodes vs your selected or your selected+random?

Lets say you know a couple friends who own masternodes. You ask system to use theirs explicitly. Your coins are 100% anonymized to everyone but your friends.

Darksend is working on paper without doubt, but its not working when someone is watching the whole mixing process. You can't make it invisible to the watchers though you can allow to choose who will be able to watch it.

If masternodes would be free then everyone would have friends with masternodes. Or anyone could setup 8 wallets on 8 different servers and use them. Everyone could choose to HOPE or choose your friends to be able to watch the mixing process.

This also would remove the need to use million rounds. 2-4-8 would be easily sufficient.

Right now, you only have the Hope option which sucks.

vertoe your opinion on this is.. ?
 
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darkstrike420 your drastic changes are ludicrous. Must be kidding me.. :cool:lol

You have it all backwards, Darkcoin masternodes are currently decentralized only DS+ is closed sourced (as of today)
The masternode approach is clearly a very good idea. Ability to masternode costing 1000 DRK (something truly scarce) has never been done before on this scale.
absolutely the decentralized way of limiting rouge node involvement. Almost a combination of proof of burn and proof of service proof of work. No free nodes. No way to cheat and pay your friend node. Its really perfect, don't you see? No way to watch the entire mixing process. No way to ever gain control of majority. This coin is more then secure.

Besides, The gov auctioned their BTC. Users bought billions more in Bitcoin. Users obviously do buy more. That fear of gov is over for the most part.
 
darkstrike420 your drastic changes are ludicrous. Must be kidding me.. :cool:lol

You have it all backwards, Darkcoin masternodes are currently decentralized only DS+ is closed sourced (as of today)
The masternode approach is clearly a very good idea. Ability to masternode costing 1000 DRK (something truly scarce) has never been done before on this scale.
absolutely the decentralized way of limiting rouge node involvement. Almost a combination of proof of burn and proof of service proof of work. No free nodes. No way to cheat and pay your friend node. Its really perfect, don't you see? No way to watch the entire mixing process. No way to ever gain control of majority. This coin is more then secure.

Besides, The gov auctioned their BTC. Users bought billions more in Bitcoin. Users obviously do buy more. That fear of gov is over for the most part.

Did you not read last two posts? :) 1000 DRK is much only for normal citizen, not for government.

I am not asking for drastic changes just additional features. Government doesn't buy Bitcoin because why would they? The transaction list is open for them. They will buy DRK to buy Masternodes so they can see even a small % of the transactions as soon as some bad boys will start laundering money.

Maybe you want to say that Tor is 100% secure and 100% anonymous and owning entry and exit node cannot deanonymize the user?
 
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