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Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by paragon, Nov 13, 2017.
Closed source means no service, once @paragon for any reason will decide to abandon the project.
Happy to see a proposal with well defined goals. It's obvious that it has been a lot of work put in to this already! Looking forward to see our community made stronger and more resilient against scammers and poorly executed proposals, thanks to this new tool. Well done and looking forward for implementation
Literally the only reason cryptocurrency must be opensource lies in the fact that it must be trustless, otherwise people would install binaries that just end up sending their coins to the programmer. This project however does not handle any funds. It's just a governance tool that'll help us become more efficient with our decision making and proposal vetting. There is no reason to opensource it for everyone. The code can be distributed to trusted parties for safekeeping. You can achieve redundancy without exposing all your secrets.
On a more emotional note:
We don't get any brownie points for gifting the world with code our network paid cold hard dash for. Nobody is going to say "thank you" and we're not going to get recognized. Dash has been copied by many competitors and most of them even deny that they did just that.
I say fuck them. Our network pays for the work so our network alone gets to reap the benefits. We're not anyone's welfare and the rest of the cryptoscene is crapping on Dash enough as it is. They'll just take it and dump another turd on our lawn. The fact that the professionally developed Dash Core client code is fully opensourced on release is more than enough, so I strongly suggest to keep this project closed-source.
My thoughts exactly. You don't have to have fully open source code to insure long term viability. If he wants to make it open source, I wouldn't object to that, since I still feel pretty generous to the rest of the crypto universe. I don't see them as real competitors. Fiat and banksters, those are our competitors.
But I understand and respect your point of view, especially with regards to certain communities that seem to make it their mission to crap on our mission. It is a complete waste of time and energy on their part, and it won't work anyway. It's like the toddler, desperately clinging to the leg of the adult, and believing they are actually stopping something.
Thanks @paragon for bringing us an extremely thoughtful proposal with a solution that I am confident will be a huge boon to Dash's governance. I really appreciate you coming to the community with a demonstration of an alpha-stage product, whereas so many other proposals have not put in the same level of leg-work upfront.
You have my full support and I expect this proposal to easily pass once submitted.
Here are a few suggested additions to make this project as useful as possible.
1) Field/column for # of Milestones Met (for example, "2 of 3")
2) Field/column for Escrow Service (If "Yes", show name of Escrow Service Provider, else No)
3) Profiles/reputation for Escrow Service Providers and a history of their escrow service (# of projects escrowed, avg $ amount, status of and links to projects)
Thanks a lot for the input Beru, Miner237, akhavr, Rimey, macrochip, solarguy and Nuancer. We definitely benefit from it. Regarding open vs closed-source, we will continue to give Core and others the community would like access to the codebase. @Nuancer Thanks for the suggestions, we are actually implementing one of those already, but please reach out to me and stay in touch.
Those of you who are known in the community and would like to be among the first users to try out the platform before public release to give feedback on how to improve it or to help us by checking the accuracy of our data, please let me know. Thanks!
This is exactly what we need, easy and quick way to check everything DAO related.
@paragon talked with me also showing his beta product and I was fascinated too.
You have my votes as well!
If I'm a masternode owner, this is a straight forward and simple yes vote from me. Good luck @paragon.
This looks great!
I'd like to know how much you think it will cost after the first 3 months to keep the information up-to-date and how much to maintain the website and make improvements.
Sorry if this was already answered and I missed it.
Thanks Splawik, Jamal, RGXDK, and masternube for the kind words.
@masternube I'm sure you could understand that the ongoing cost is very difficult to predict without us being up and running for the first 2-3 months and formalizing/standardizing all of our processes. That's why I said in the proposal I'd refrain from trying to estimate the ongoing cost until the appropriate time where it could be more accurately gauged.
It's possible that the application development may be largely complete after 3 months, but it's also possible that the community may want continuous improvements and new features added.
Regarding the outreach and updates on proposals, this work would likely be continuous and grow over time as the amount and complexity of proposals is expected to increase with our budget. We're asking for your patience in this regard in determining what the ongoing cost will be.
I would support it, i'm looking forward to this budget proposal.
I understand that you can't predict the future, but I'd hate to see this be delivered and abandoned after a few months. So any indication you can give about the risk and opportunity to keep this up long term would be helpful.
Who would be keeping the database up to date? How much work is that per project? Is somebody committed to do it or would we have to find someone? Anything else you can come up with.
Thanks for the support qwizzie and others, I really appreciate it.
To assuage some of Masternube's concerns (who, as a new masternode, understandably doesn't know or trust me) without overwhelming the thread with lots of back and forth, we spoke extensively via private message. Here were the key points we discussed:
His biggest concern was upkeep of the website and data. There is a full-time developer who will continue working full-time on this project until the community's demands no longer require full-time work at which point he'll revert to part-time. There is another person working full-time to gather the data and ensure it is accurate and up-to-date along with me. There will also be countless community members able to submit changes to the database if they believe something is wrong or outdated which we will review and approve once verified.
Regarding the risk of abandonment, a core team member has access to the entire codebase, and the data in our database will be public on our website as well as through our APIs. In my eyes, we have every incentive to professionally maintain this website long-term as we are big believers significantly staked in Dash who will be getting compensated to do so, but the above-mentioned failsafe mechanisms are in place regardless.
Regarding predicting the ongoing cost of this project, we genuinely believe it would be misleading to quote a price until after we've been up and running for the first 3 months as the ongoing need for innovation and development of the platform will be one of the primary costs and it will depend on what the community wants. In addition, the amount of time we spend reaching out, communicating and documenting proposals is also difficult to accurately gauge until the process has been carried out extensively and standardized. Furthermore, the amount of detail that the masternodes would like us to provide on each proposal every month may increase or decrease over time which could significantly alter the amount of work required.
In short, because the community may or may not want continuous development of the platform and because both the number of proposals and the amount of information we provide on each may increase or decrease over time, we don't believe it's presently possible to accurately predict what the ongoing cost will be. We hope you understand and will give us the needed time to better determine this.
Please let me know if you have further questions
Thanks paragon. It was always my intention to support this proposal. I just thought it would improve its chances to have clarity on these issues.
Thanks again for your time and good luck!
Frankly, to be a strong DAO we will need many groups doing the same thing. This type of project brings with it a lot of power. We eventually need multiples of every type of service such as this. So please do keep working on your idea. The hardest thing is to find people who are willing to step up to the plate and make something that we NEED
One last thing, it would be great to have an integrated Block explorer that can analyze how and where funds are being spent to correlate with the "books". This is something that needs to be created to keep corruption from setting in. It would be great if another group could make something like this that proposers are required to use to stay transparent with the network.
Looks like the Dash Watch proposal is now live!
Time to get voting.
What about tags? Who will be responsible to add tags to a proposal? Can the proposal owner define his own tags? I have made a pre-proposal for tags, which may be relevant.
You also said that you are going to give to trustworthy people the ability to edit/rate in your database. Who are those trustworthy? How do you define "trustworthy" word? I dont trust the same people you trust. I want you to let me define in your database who I trust. And then let me see your database filtered in such a way so that only the ratings and the comments of the people I trust will be visible to me. Is this possible? Are you planning to implement something like this?
Why didn't paragon post the link here himself?
How can we be sure it's indeed his proposal?
Has it even happened that someone else stole a pre-proposal and posted it as their own proposal?
I got over excited, I helped paragon through the process of submitting the proposal and then posted here afterwards.
You can be sure when paragon confirms it.
I haven't heard of anyone stealing a pre-proposal, sounds like a great way to throw away 5 Dash.
You raise a good point though, I certainly should have waited for them to post it.
@masternube @solarguy and others Yes the proposal is officially live. I had to head out for a few hours after submitting, but thank you everyone for all the support so far, it's nice to know you also see the value in this work to both advance and protect Dash
Thank you again Syntheist for the guidance through the submission process
@paragon your proposal is mst needed for monitoring and evaluation of projects sponsored by the community. I wish I had Masternode to give you a Yes Vote
No worries, it passed!
If you are not born to be slave, you can have a masternode right now.
Are you born to be slave that is why you don't have Masternode... Do you think those holding Masternode started today. It about focus and determination. I will one day own one MN
Those who believe that the greedy Dash generation of 2014-2016 deserves to hold most of the Dash money and most of the Masternodes.
Those who believe that money should be space and time dependant.
Those who believe that money belongs to the old generations and the new born should be enslaved to the old ones in order to gain it.
Those who believe that money is a religion or a property issued by a king, priest, president, god, old generation or satoshi.
Those who do not understand that money is a social convention.
Those are the born to be slaves, or the uneducated barbarians.
And you seem to be one of them...
The stupid are bulding trusted system again!!
You are nacamoto's children you stupid! Remember your roots!!
The stupid are bulding trusted systems again!! You are nacamoto's children you stupid! Remember your roots!!
“The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that’s required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts.”
Monthly amount: 70 DASH (47881 USD)
Completed payments: 3 totaling in 210 DASH (0 month remaining)
And still no deliverable. http://dashwatch.org/
Who is gonna watch those who are supposed to watch?