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Dash Nation Consensus Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TaoOfSatoshi, May 1, 2016.

  1. kot

    kot Administrator
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    Let me share my personal opinion on the discussed topics:
    1. DAO
    - I guess that many people mix decentralization of the coin with decentralization of the organization
    - DAO does not mean that this is a group of individuals working on whatever they want, however they want, without any control. What outcome would it bring?
    - DAO means ORGANIZATION. And this means organized work of one or more teams to achieve common goals.
    - Team work is much more effective than work of individuals working alone. Self-organized team is the most effective team structure.
    - Every effective team is constructed out of different roles to meet business goals (user expectations). Homogeneous teams (e.g. only developers) working on complex projects are able to deliver only very limited results, with poor quality and in non-timely manner (and I say it from my experience).

    Some of you say that we should not bring any shit from corporations and right after that you try to say what should the core team do, how should it be organized and who should be paid or not... WTF? Don't you see any contradiction here???

    The same people say we should not have any managers and supporting functions only developers and pay developers only. May I ask from where these ideas come from? I have gained my experience playing almost every possible role in IT project and I can hardly imagine setup you are talking about in a project of Dash scale. It could work for very small startup with 2-3 people on board. Definitely not with what we have here with 10-15 projects run in parallel, multiple existing customers around the globe, even more potential customers to contact and offer Dash, systems with hundreds and thousands of users and big infrastructure to maintain, multiple vendors to work with, multiple social media platforms to update and maintain, translations and so on and so forth. How can you see all of this done by developers??? In what parallel universe is it possible?

    2. Core team
    - Core team is only one of the potential teams working in our DAO. E.g. the other one is the team established for Dash-World project by @GreyGhost . From time to time @alex-ru establishes different teams to deliver his small projects. So core is not the only one - I am sure I would find more of them.
    - Core team could be defined as a team working on the core wallet and sub-streams around it (this is how I see it)
    - There could be multiple teams in Dash. If you feel that something is done not really well by the core team, establish your own team and do it better, with the structure and work methodology you find more effective
    - Like mentioned above, self-organizing teams are the most effective teams. Let the team self-organize. In my opinion there should not be any debate on how the team is organized and how it works (this works the same when you hire a vendor - you are not debating about it's structure but about deliverable) . Discussion about the goals and results would be much more appreciated.
    - Just to clarify the topic of being paid. For majority of us it is 70 Dash per month or 25 Dash a month for some of the others. Be serious guys. We can earn this money in couple of hours as freelancers - every single one of us (considering skills and experience). Yet, many of us have decided to work for Dash full time or dedicate a lot of free time for the project. Reading that this is useless is sad and does not motivate for going extra mile with the project.
     
    #181 kot, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  2. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I can see most of this, and I respect your view on things.

    Does that mean if we disagree we are wrong though? Like who gives the final say on organization of things? Who's to say one way is right and one understanding is THE understanding? How do we come to a conclusion that appeals to everyone?

    Just some food for thought, not trying to argue or anything like that.
     
  3. flare

    flare Administrator
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    Printed out for my blackboard! Thanks for this post, very well said, i share the same opinion.
     
  4. kot

    kot Administrator
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    @TheDashGuy
    It doesn't mean that you are wrong by disagreeing.
    If you want to make your point, share your experience in the area and give rational arguments. Saying that something is right or wrong just because you see it right or wrong (+some shits and fucks) is not a serious discussion about serious matters.
     
  5. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    This is economy my friend.
    You never know what is the outcome of economy.
    They started printing silver and golden coins 2500 years ago, and the outcome is nuclear fusion and space traveling.

    Your point of view is like saying:
    "Ok. we know how to print silver coins, so we have to remain blacksmiths, and all our economy should remain a blacksmith economy. Lets built a Structure,lets define managers that will turn everyone to a blacksmith"

    And this is a stupid point of view. You shoud consider dash as an economy, and not as a digital cash.
     
    #185 demo, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  6. Vedran Yoweri

    Vedran Yoweri Active Member

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    Had there been a troll button next to the like button i would have been hitting it like a mf pages ago. Seriously guys, respect.
     
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  7. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Yup...especially those Evan admirers, those Evan_is_the_best_fuck_all_the_rest, are the ubber trolls around. I wish they will just shut up their admirer chant, it is tottaly distructive for dash project. People reading those admirer chants, either disgust or laugh on dash.
     
    #187 demo, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  8. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    We all love Evan, some of us just want a certain type of organizing and open-ness to be implemented as opposed to this walled garden thats been created (in a sense) so far.

    Let's try and keep it polite today, all this getting angry at one another is turning people off from contributing to the conversation. I am on of the greatest offenders of this obviously, so how about we take that as a sign? :D

    edit: and I think what you are getting at is even Evan can (and should be) be questioned sometimes.... he's not a god or anything as far as we know...
     
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  9. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    I am newbie...and no dog in the race.
    I like the concept of P2P as implemented with DASH, and am studying it, much as I am able...
    As declared earlier, it was obvious I needed to review this thread again, in detail, before commenting further...
    Still working on that !
    Yet, MSM has brought us tidings from the manufacturing mega nation, today's date...
    As such, I am in disagreement with the above quote, and circumstances, reported in MSM will show precisely why DASH Nation is detrimental to the use of DASH.
    Run these terms through any news search... Article 73 of China Criminal Procedure Law, Congyi Church, Gu Yuese, and arrested in reference to economic matters...
    There is at least one substantial country, (may I use the word, nation?), that will arrest a person using, or mis-using, what is perceived as organization funds.
    IF, DASH is interested in participants from China, departure from intent as an exchange in a P2P fashion, by any reference to DN quite easily could place any DASH users in that countries jurisdiction within peril.
    IMO, NOT a wise proposition for DASH.

    There is language here within this thread which has a description known far and wide upon the internet forums...
    "DASH Nation never purported to be official"
    Then Do Not Use the DASH Name !
    This would be described anywhere as a trademark violation, and actionable.
    And in post #20... "Dash Nation is simply a way of saying... "
    No, it is Not !
    Language is interpreted by international standards.

    na·tion
    ˈnāSH(ə)n/
    noun
    noun: nation; plural noun: nations
    a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.
    "leading industrialized nations"

    If anyone wishes to speak, in public, using their own language and definitions, perhaps they could, or should, first gain recognition by some world congress so proper inference could be obtained from the words declared.
    The entire presentation fits the definition of trolling.
    IMO.

    Did I mention I am newbie ? With no dog in the race ?
    Let me say... No, I shall say... I very much like the concept of P2P and do feel DASH seems to be an optimal solution to implement that end.

    Any implementation of such language just might preclude the use of DASH by a very significant population of this planet.

    Perhaps someone would direct me to where I could review 'github' and 'DGBB' ?
    Sure, roles should be defined... is the answer to be found within those two ??

    Best
    rc
     
    #189 rustycase, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  10. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    I also love Evan as a person.
    I also love Evan's flatterers as persons.
    But unfortunately the flatterers are often considered both disgusting and blithe by the objective readers.
     
    #190 demo, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  11. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    I really don't think we should be quick to dismiss Evan especially on merit, but the discussion that is happening is worthwhile, IMO. I do acknowledge kot's point about self-organization and what it means to be a DAO. One thing that perhaps we should take a closer look at, is the relationship between the code developers, and the "visionaries", and everyone else. Right now would it be accurate to say that our code developers look to Evan as the lead visionary, and/or the lead coder at the same time? Have we ever had a scenario where the code development team disagrees with Evan on a fundamental issue? If there are people who have a different vision for the project, then really the only way to compete with the current project would be to fork the code and have a separate set of code developer (which up to this point we have not really seen attempted). If we are to build for long term sustainability though, we need to make sure we are prepared to handle what happens to our roles and where the vision comes from if Evan disappears or leaves the project for some reason. And even when he is still here, obviously he has a very important role, but what exactly *is* his appropriate role in the DAO?
     
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  12. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    man man, these personal attacks are so lame and are really killing any spirit in here
    (and it is more than obvious that that is your main aim ;))
    let me explain (for the sake of ...)
    as i started the whole marketing department back in the day i needed an official email and be listed to communicate with publications, writers and all that
    now as GG and Vandex took over the marketing, i still do a lot of other marketing and with [email protected] reply to any incoming requests
    volentering
    i think i did my part over the last 2+ years, ... volunteering and being dedicated on a daily bases and availability is the big difference. anybody can pop on here, pull up a project and done (no offence, really well done) but to be back the next day, month , year and still work on that + 20 other projects is the key difference between full-time and volunteer !
    I heard before that there is some 'movement' to only pay coding developers and have all none coders unpaid and fired from Core Team.
    whow, sorry but this only shows that some people have no idea how to run a project, organisation like this, sure the coders are the most important, but they only can do what they are doing (+ concentrate) when we (none coders) keep their backs free and deal with all the management, communications, organisations (in-house and outside). To turn that over to volunteer ? think about it !
    Example: evan has to ask 2-3 guys parallel if they "please could do...x" help him out ? we would never get anything done
    volunteering is great, we work with this since 2 years +, and are still relying full onto volunteers but you need people in positions to manage volunteers, right
    volunteering has it's place in an organization as ours, same as managers (hate that word)
    if we want to be professional , we need a professional team, in coding + in management/communications/....

    i would really appreciate if you could leave your personal attacks out of this
    you made more than clear where you stand regrading me and my position (well noted, we got it now)
    lets move on and not 'taint' this and other discussions (again) with your personal grudges
     
  13. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    And to expand onto this:

    Were do little people like myself fit into this "DAO" structure as @kot described it? Honestly curious. What's my role as a community member wanting to help on certain projects that core or others are working on? How do I go about being "involved in a proper way", for lack of a better way to say it?
     
    #193 TheDashGuy, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  14. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    aren't you involved ?
    you are designing on the webpage ! good on !

    what do you mean 'proper' way ?
    best is always to reach out to the 'managers' of these projects you want to be involved in , offer your help (not scream critics on them) , ask, .... and there are many open ears out there
    it is that easy and many others are already involved, the only one struggling might really be you
     
  15. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Ok so just to be clear, if you want me to stop using you as the subject of my points, stop making it so easy. You don't even read half the posts and just cherry pick statements to argue with. Take some time, actually read it, THEN respond thuroughly instead of throwing around the same accusation you want me to stop.

    Anyways to the point, I asked WHERE DO I FIT IN THIS STRUCTURE, not how do I give my help away for free online in a forum setting like I could do on any forum, not very "DAO" like IMO.

    Where is the official organization chart? The Dash DAO structure explanation? The onboarding for such a setup?

    You can't just slap a title on your guys group an call it a DAO because volunteers can jump in and help. Thats just called volunteering.

    So, again, where do I OFFICIALLY fit in as a contributor that is merely just a Dash user? Explain it like im 5. Like I've never read a thing about Dash and just heard about this cool "DAO" thingy @kot described.

    Because in my mind, it's only a true Decentralized Autonomous Organization when someone can contribute to everything WITHOUT having to talk to anyone, until we get their, please stop mislabeling us as a DAO, we're just a community at this point.

    edit: Meaning, make it official, lay it all out in a "Structure of the Dash DAO" webpage, and follow through with how it was intended/planned to work/operate. Stop throwing buzzwords around please.
     
  16. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    lol
    point taken, but as there are 560 pages with endless amounts of threads, yes i have to zip in and out as i do not have the time to catch up on 20-30 pages on each thread !
    (hence: talking /writing = getting anything done around here)

    anybody can do their own thing, start pages, contribute code on github, .... do this do that, so many possibilities , check tao, he found his place and so have many others.
    (maybe in the future we should find a way to secure these new pages that they do not disappear in case the volunteer who started them leaves and takes everything with him.)
    DAO or not
    i personally do not care about these labels, i am all for building a structure for us (Project, Team and community), that works for us !
    if that is called DAO, ODA or whatever ..... it is way too early in this project to stamp a label on that and say we are this or that !
    We should let this evolve, find our own structure and path ..... DAO or Corporate or any other structure will still 'bind' us to that structure, so i suggest to let this play out for another year or so and than reevaluate where and what structure we are (if that is so important)
     
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  17. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    This conversation/debate is going the right way. We all care deeply about Dash, and will do anything to see it succeed. I can see that from core and non-core members. I will make an attempt to lead the conversation down the next step in the natural progression. We have established that there is a problem with structure, or with the communication of the structure, be it a small problem or a big problem.

    What are the positives you see in Dash?

    - Evan's brilliance
    - The core team's dedication and professionalism
    - The core team's internal communications and results
    - The surrounding community's inspiration and wanting to contribute
    - The passion that we all have for this project
    - The actual product that we are creating/promoting that has never been created before in history.

    What are the negatives you see in Dash?

    - The level of communication between core team and community (currently being worked on by myself and @yidakee).
    - The lack of consensus (voting) required to be on the core team.
    - The lack of guidance from the core team to those who may wish to join it such as @TheDashGuy (and have a case to do so).
    - The lack of clearly defined roles for the core team, masternodes (investors), professional contributors, and the overall community.

    I'm not saying that these problems are major or minor, that is a matter of opinion for both sides. But sooner or later, we would do well to hammer out an organizational chart that features people attaining positions based on merit, and keeping these positions based on results, and to clearly define the reponsibilities and role of the masternodes, which are a key way to gain consensus in this ecosystem. Please, let's use them as well as the other strengths we have such as our dedication and passion for our product.

    Please feel free to objectively voice your opinions on how we should proceed. No one is trying to demotivate anyone, in fact having an engaged community is key to our success. This kind of thing has never been debated before, and I like where the tone is going lately.

    Cheers,

    Tao
     
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  18. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    See? You also dont have the mentality of VOTING WITH NUMBERS.
    Lets say you believe that managers should get all the budget of dash, and lets say I believe that coders should get it.
    You vote 100% for managers and 0% for coders, I vote 100% for coders and 0% for managers.
    The results is 50% for coders and 50% for managers.
    This is how problems should be solved. There is not a clear "dont pay them" or a clear "yes pay them" for managers and coders. Lets talk using percentages!

    Everybody has his own opinion about how much they should be paid, so lets put it in a VOTE WITH NUMBERS.
     
  19. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    what ?
    my point was that you need coders as much as you need managers and viseversa !

    voting in general , i am all for Yes / No
    keep it simple
    (i do not understand your Voting number approach, sorry)
     
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  20. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Voting with numbers is simple.

    I believe that managers should get 0% of the budget, you believe they should get 4%, and Evan believes they should get 2%.

    The result is the average:
    (0+4+2)/3=2%.
    So managers are paid the 2% of the budget.

    It is very simple, I wonder how can I explain it better...
     
  21. yidakee

    yidakee Well-known Member
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    That is the beauty of this project. We don't need, or want at this point, any of that. We self-organised and keep self-organising organically. We don't micro-manage. This is how it's been working so far, and quite well. Because all of the team, without exception, naturally coordinates itself quite proficiently without much need of policing.

    Unlike a regular centralised organisation. We are efficient because we all have a solid background in various fields, years of professional experience, many of us in high responsibility an accountability positions, and understand how to behave in a professional context and how to maintain a rock-solid work ethic.

    We have no ego trips within. There are no conflicts within. There is no divise. Its astonishingly and amazingly coherent. It almost as if we're a hippy tree hugging family. We don't all bow before each other and at the magnificent awesomeness of Evan All Mighty... no, we do recognise and follow his vision - as you guys are or you would not be here.

    Or maybe you are for another reason, but I'd like to think otherwise. And why do I say this? Because you simply don't quit !

    .
     
  22. kot

    kot Administrator
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    I will try to share some more of my thoughts (and get back to work - the more time I spent on the forum, the less time I can spent working ;) - discussion about work is not necessarily work)

    @TheDashGuy - I guess you need to decide whether you hate corporations and consider everything coming from there is a pure evil or you want structures, announcements, position descriptions, processes how to join etc.
    Anyway - I'll try to share something about this below.

    @TaoOfSatoshi
    I find your list of negatives objectionable. Let me explain it further (in blue color):

    - The level of communication between core team and community (currently being worked on by myself and @yidakee).
    I believe that level of communication is quite good but it simply does not meet expectations of people who spent most of their productive time on the forum. These people will never be satisfied, no matter what you do. At the moment we have:
    Still think that it is a concern? This is quite good reporting and communication in my opinion (even considering high corporate standards). Are you able to find this level of professional communication in any crypto-project? Of course we can do better (there is always area for improvement) - I just doubt that we would be able to satisfy those, who are unsatisfied at the moment.

    - The lack of consensus (voting) required to be on the core team.
    Total misunderstanding in my opinion. How could voting improve anything in the team structure or effectiveness? Teams should be self-organizing (at least at our current status) to be more effective. Are you able to force anyone in a team full of volunteers to work with someone they don't want to work with? Or to say how should they work? Just because you vote on this... hmm... I guess it won't work.

    - The lack of guidance from the core team to those who may wish to join it such as @TheDashGuy (and have a case to do so).
    This is how I see the current status of our DAO:
    [​IMG]
    - it means few teams working on common goals. Core team is one of them. We are available on forums, Slack, our emails are not secret. How to join the team? Read what we do, if you want to do similar stuff and you have skills - contact me or anyone else from the team and offer your help. If you have an idea on how to improve the work of the team - do the same. I joined exactly this way - contacted @splawik21 and @Minotaur and offered my help.


    - The lack of clearly defined roles for the core team, masternodes (investors), professional contributors, and the overall community.

    Again, you want this corporate stuff or not? Make your decision ;). I think the current model is simple - open-source project model (as already mentioned):
    • Core-team + professional contributors contribute to the project (because they want to :))
    • Masternodes (investors) provide infrastructure for Dash and budget for projects (project sponsor role).
    • Community - supports contributors
    Do we really need anything more complicated now?

    I agree we should prepare the project for future challenges and growth. To do this, there is a need to "hammer out an organizational chart that features people attaining positions" - well said. However first, there is a need for basic understanding that we are not reinventing the wheel and we should learn from best practices even if they are coming from corporations. Project management, finance management, accounting, vendor management, sales, support teams, development teams, marketing etc - this is something that we don't need to create from scratch just because we are DAO. We simply need to adopt them in the most effective way.

    Ufff... I guess I need to start a blog to keep everything of this in a single place...
     
    #202 kot, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  23. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    @kot Thank you for your well thought out reply. To be clear, I wasn't specifically asking for something more complicated per se, and agree you can't please everyone. But what would go a long way is clear definition of roles in our ecosystem, specifically masternodes.

    Focusing on Masternodes: What should the masternodes be allowed to have control over? Are they simply in control of budgeting? If so, voting on the blocksize increase falls well out of their intended purpose, and should not have been done. If they can, as investors, have say in technical development, then this vote was warranted and future votes on technical issues can be allowed. We can't cherry pick technical votes. They either can vote on them, or not.

    This is an example where clear defining of roles is needed, to avoid misunderstanding in the future.

    What is the role of Masternodes?
     
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  24. yidakee

    yidakee Well-known Member
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    @tao - again?

    Evan proposed to blocksize increase through the budgeting system as a show of faith that he DOES want Masternodes to have a say in certain aspects of Dash development. Just like previously with the rebrand, he put it in the hands of the community before DGbB. Your question has been answered before. Masternodes primarily control the use of funds. He absolutely can "cherry pick" technical votes.

    .
     
  25. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I appreciate the actual attempts to educate me on how you both see things @kot and @yidakee.

    I guess we just have fundamental differences in our goals within a decentralized community. I want to help others around the world and I don't see how we can do that and fulfill a full on financial revolution without giving people the proper guidance to get involved, and by proper I mean extensive.

    Maybe that should be something @tungfa can assist with since most of his 'job' rallies around knowing what others do and how to get them to jump in and help out or perhaps @kot you would be useful there being as you have knowledge about everyone and the hierarchy and routes it would take to go from 'zero to hero' if you will without fumbling around on google and in dashtalk wasting energy looking for how to help out, and being forced to wait until you have spent months just posting on the forums until someone asks you for help.

    All im saying is our current "setup" is very lacking. We have PLENTY of room for improvement.
     
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  26. splawik21

    splawik21 Grizzled Member
    Dash Core Team Foundation Member Dash Support Group Moderator

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  27. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    @yidakee So, Dash is really all about Evan and the trolls are right? I'm very surprised at your answer.
     
  28. yidakee

    yidakee Well-known Member
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    I don't know why your are surprised, myself and a few others have already answered the same question a couple of times with the same answer.
    Dash is 100% about Evan's vision at this point in time, and we're all very glad it is. Just like Bitcoin was all about Satoshi and the people who believed in him and followed his lead and contributed, until he disappeared.

    Evan will inevitably disappear one day. He's building a system that guarantees continuity when that happens. Nothing about this is new or has changed since he announced 2 years ago he'd quit his job and dedicate ate least 2 years full time to set this up and see what happens. Look at the result!

    We are doing things right we believe. Whoever doesn't agree can always fork the code and take it in an entirely different direction. I don't see where the issue is.

    I firmly believe all this emotion is part trolling, part divisive/disruptive tactics, and plain ignoring the clear path that has been set long ago. This is not a fun project like Dogecoin. We have serious entrepreneurial objectives.

    .
     
  29. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    I'm merely trying to ascertain who controls what, and who is responsible for what. My goal is clarification, and to create a team where everyone feels valued.

    If the conclusion of this discussion is that Evan controls everything and we abide by his decisions, then to me this conversation is over. Is that really the case? I don't think so. Hence, the need for clarification.

    Please do not question my motives. I bleed Dash, and believe deeply in everything I say in my posts.
     
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  30. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    I think what Tao might be getting at is that cherry-picking votes like that is a bit insulting to masternode operators when it means nothing. If controversial parts of the vision will just be implemented without a vote, and less controversial parts of the vision are taken to the masternode owners, as if core team is trying to make it seem like Masternodes have a say but they don't?

    If the Masternode votes on things like block size are just to provide information to Evan as opposed to direction, then fine, if that's really where we are right now, but if so let's not call that particular vote an example of dgbb.
     
    #210 TroyDASH, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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