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Dash Nation Consensus Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TaoOfSatoshi, May 1, 2016.

  1. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Of course you are correct, kot... there's probably quite a bit I have missed. And I shall go back and review this thread again... and whatever else I can find to help me learn about the implementation of DASH.
    ...Oh! Did you mean Craig Wright? :)
    It does seem to me the most advantageous benefit's to makind only occurred when their time arrived.
    I shall go back to square one. rc
     
  2. kointrend

    kointrend Member

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    Hello Tao and everyone.
    I just want to say that indeed I think that any suggestion is valuable in terms of discussion and I really appreciate that, but as big investor like I feel (relative to my financial capacity), with no skills of economics or technicals (I think I'm not the only one), I would be really concerned if the last word of the development doesn't be of the core team, the group led by Evan.
    That said, thanks to all of you for the hard work. (Sorry for the bad english).
     
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  3. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    Please stop trying to pressure the contributors Tao. The small / disruptive group you joined recently does not represent the Dash community whereas the contributors are sanctioned by the network whether you like it or not. Like any organization, serious contributors will try to fit into the upper team structure, which I did myself, not splinter off into a separate slack and try to drum up support around an alternative agenda by constant flow of accusations and negativity against the main team, this is really divisive and is usually referred to as a 5th column. I deactivated my account on that slack because honestly it will just burn-out any team member with the toxicity there and constant insinuation of incompetence, lack of experience, lack of communication, how bad the team is for not making people 'feel the right way', i am dumbfounded most people don't see what's happening, although I guess if you weren't on the team slack after the rejected Merchant proposal and the massive backlash / FUD storm from that group that led to them splitting off to their own slack, you might be oblivious to it.

    Serious people will contribute within the existing structure and don't need to be fluffed, they work for the good of the project. There are 76 people in the team slack most of whom aren't paid and don't need fluffing to 'feel appreciated' and all work constructively and have a range of skills and competances far beyond anything i've seen in your small group. You complain about communication, ironically I was scheduled to do a show with Buster today where I had prepared to communicate loads of stuff about Evolution, but like so many before him who joined Solarminers gang Buster suddenly became angry with the core team and had to quit, the real reason I am guessing is that he has just been hit with a constant stream of FUD about how bad the team is rather than anything the team is actually doing wrong, so that's how your group is improving communication, please get real.

    Lets please put this behind us and continue making Dash the leading cryptocurrency, you have one of the largest and smartest teams here and we are in the early stage of building out something truly next generation that if we get it right really will make an impact in the world. If you want to help, look outside of Dash and help us integrate, gain adoption, raise awareness and improve the product and we need to stick together to achieve this. I hope we can all work together and put these recent disagreements behind us.
     
    #153 AndyDark, May 8, 2016
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  4. crowning

    crowning Well-known Member

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    This is a cross-post over from Slack from yours truly:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Personally I don't think it's a bad thing per se to be a bit disconnected from the rest of the community.

    You know, everyone and his little sister has tons of ideas how Dash should be changed/improved/whatever. My inbox is full of them, and I can only imagine how Evans and Udjins inbox look like.
    And I can tell you that I've implemented loads of code to check whether the better community ideas work/look good/don't break other things/are possible at all and threw them away because they don't.

    If you really want to change things then do it. If you can't, friendly ask for it. The devs might not immediately make your wish their prio-1 goal, and might even miss it because they are doing things others have friendly asked for.
    Or, imagine, things which are actually necessary to keep that thing running.

    This might look arrogant or disconnected from the outside, but I can live with that, probably because I am quite arrogant when it comes to this.

    Most losses in the open-source-community were because devs got worn out with discussions and name-calling, NOT because of the work or team itself.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Maybe we should postpone v0.12.1.x and Evolution and start a proper discussion with the developers?
     
    #154 crowning, May 8, 2016
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  5. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    @crowning I don't think the Dash larger community should be expecting core developers to be responding to every idea or every criticism put out there by everyone and their little sister. The amount of input I am sure is overwhelming. We shouldn't want to be wasting the time of our developers or having them constantly have to defend themselves against everything anyone ever says. That being said, it is still a fair question to ask what is an appropriate level of engagement, because on the other extreme if the development team is entirely isolated, then people who contribute to Dash in other ways become less incentivized to contribute and it can foster misunderstandings/miscommunications. And when I am referring to level of engagement, I am not thinking in terms of each person who works on core development individually, I am thinking more collectively the core developers as a group.

    @AndyDark I think you would find if you actually spent more time in the "other" slack, that it isn't like you describe. Most of the content in the slack, believe it or not, does not involve accusations and negativity aimed at the core team. Some of the other core team members have had a presence there and I don't want to speak for anyone, but I would encourage you to ask the people who are more familiar with the slack rather than just going off of the very worst which is the only part you are seeing.

    We aren't asking for people to bend over backwards with fluff. There's a difference between having a politically-correct community where everyone has to walk on eggshells, versus having a community that fosters respect to everyone who contributes. If some contributing members don't feel respected (and this includes people on core team and people who aren't), maybe we should take some time and take a closer look at it and consider that there might be things we can change, rather than assume that person is just stirring up trouble for no good reason. There is no solarminer "gang", we really aren't out to get anyone (or at least I know that I'm not). I just don't think we should underestimate the power of community building which is a huge part of what Tao is trying to accomplish. We spend a lot of time talking about official marketing efforts, but a lot of talent gets brought in to the project when a well-motivated community brings in people on their own through their own little projects or word of mouth.
     
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  6. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Listen, I can't speak for others on both sides, but I've been nothing but diplomatic in this thread. I've stated that I believe the core team is doing a great job, I have oodles of faith in Evan, and believe in most respects we are on the right track.

    With respect to the Public Slack, to say that it is a place where people plot against the core team is ridiculous. In fact, we are actively developing retail solutions to deploy in Free State NH with collaboration from members of their community as we speak. Articles have been produced there, websites have been designed, podcasts created. It is a marvel of decentralized communication and action. Do not belittle it please.

    We are all one team. As you can see, it's not just the core team that drives us forward. The whole community has valuable contributors, and it will help to make everyone feel valued.

    Communication, communication, communication. No one is trying to "divide" anyone. I would just like to see a more inclusive system before we go the way of other more mature cryptos. Talking about it has been a start...
     
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  7. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Get your head out the clouds please. You are being a complete ass at this point and just showing how one-sided you can be.

    Please stop being condescending. Please stop referring to this "toxicity" you believe in because it's all in your head.

    If you'd like to keep spreading your FUD I might just have to get sort of angry with you. So here's a warning, stop acting as if this is one side vs the other, or "our little group of fudsters" might come after you.....


    >.>

    Seriously disappointed in the lack of people skills around here.
     
  8. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    I stand by everything I said, and if my opinion is FUD why do we have the 3 of your rushing in here to damage-control and you threatening me not to say it?

    It's a shame you got involved because out of Solarminers group you're the guy who's contributions I value the most and in case you didn't notice i've been trying to build bridges with you since 'the fuddening' started back in Feb and privately offered to share my own core salary with you if you work with me (although you pointed out I didn't need to offer that because money is not why you are contributing which I respect). I tried building bridges with Solar too but he thinks Dash should go "retail" now and not Evolution, and that's really the source of all this drama isn't it, people who don't get there way and try to bend the rules to get it?

    BTW i'll say what I like, threats will never work with me or stop me stating an honest opinion, when I see your group fudding in future I will kindly point this out. I guess you are angry so no worries.
     
  9. crowning

    crowning Well-known Member

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    See?
     
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  10. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Dash Address:
    XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX

    Satoshi is not a real person.
    It was a open account, and many people used this account to write from it, in order to remain anonymous.
     
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  11. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    Lol. exactly.

    If these guys actually joined with team instead of grating against it, Dash would be better for it, TDG is one of the most web-savvy people here, Solar could be a great project manager and i'm sure can move mountains on Retail when we're ready for it, FTG was our Android guy, Buster is our Media guy and Tao is a great promoter, that's why it narcs me so much ;) I'm not going to engage with them anymore, I tried building bridges privately and failed to the point where I flipped out when Buster left torpedoing my only chance to explain my take on Evolution I had been building up to for 2 months, and wish I hadn't. I just hope they come round and we can all work as a team. Back to coding and ignoring all this from the warm fuzzy confines of team Slack is the safest bet for me at this point :)
     
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  12. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I was going to type out this whole speech but fuck it.

    Whats the point of there being a 'core' team anyways in a decentralized project? Doesn't that just create divides?
     
  13. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    @TheDashGuy and his posts are not what we're debating here. Bringing people together, not highlighting our differences, should be the goal here. There are people engaging in ad hominem attacks on both sides, yet I wouldn't call either side toxic. I will respond to constructive feedback from both sides to bring us together, and I have. I will never attack anyone, as I believe we are all Dash Nation, and everyone's opinions are valued. These are our growing pains we must go through if we truly claim to have decentralized governance.

    Please, both sides, contribute with ideas, not attacks. This is a very sensitive issue, let's not make it harder.
     
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  14. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Kick everyone off core who can't code. Stop paying people like @tungfa to do what the regular users should be doing. Either that or open applications to core publicly.

    This is becoming redundant as hell.
     
  15. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    it's not just coding right, taking tech to market is more. team needed to do that (even if it's appointed by the DAO itself)...and faith in team's decisions...and positivity.....:)
     
  16. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    So open applications publicly. Put your money where your mouth is. Stop playing friends & favorites.

    Because all that we have now is the "Dash Cool Kids Core Club" as opposed to a "core team".
     
  17. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    trying to bring you round for good of Dash....i'm done debating, network wants me to code, that's what i'm gonna do. if you don't like it, sorry dude....................

    EDIT: BTW i'm not in the Core Team, i'm in the Web Team...:eek:
     
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  18. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    You just completely disregarded my very honest and serious post. You want to have a discussion without shit being thrown at the wall, here it is.

    So seriously, why is there no application for forum mods, or core team gigs? Why is it always up to whoever you guys "like" as opposed to credentials and actual proof of work?

    Why is it so hard to answer that honestly?

    edit: and if anyone still thinks Im trolling, I'm very serious about this. I've got half a mind to stop contributing in any form just because all I seem to be doing helping pad the pockets of a small subset of people. Some of whom keep throwing thier weight around and acting like some members opinons have no value, and THAT is what im sick of.

    As was said before, i'm sick of feeling like I'm walking on eggshells because I have an opinion.
     
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  19. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    I missed what you said actually...we can't open everything up, if it's all public it's vulnerable to competition, sabotage until things locked in, etc. That's why you need some privacy. It's a dichotomy of the DAO and we need to find a balance. but you guys are positioning on the outside and just throwing rocks. There is no process to be 'allowed' in other than contribute and show some trust and continued commitment - Evan said it best "to be in the team all you have to do is do something to forward Dash everyday" or something like that. I know that because that's what I did.
     
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  20. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I get that. But what I don't get is there seems to be this aura of "the team is big enough" or something and thats bull.

    Once I stop seeing this whole "core team always knows better" crap I'll stop being a dick, but just because you think you are part of the cool kids club doesn't give your opinion anymore weight than @craigrant . Seriously.

    Are we going to start banning and censoring people who disagree next? Cause thats were we are headed.
     
  21. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    that's true to the extent that i think there is confidence in the overall core team strategy, but you have to have that or how can a team work to a single goal. but that doesn't mean the team doesn't respect other people's opinions or learn from them or listen to all Busters episodes or read Tao's tweets and think 'cool' - i need to go around thanking everyone? who is thanking me or the other coders im working with i dont even think anyone here knows who they are and they're not looking for moral support??? seriously, we need to toughen up a bit here. i dont like your style a lot of the time but obviously i respect your ability and contribution or why would i be chatting about it. too fragile.
     
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  22. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Ok well to be fair, my 'style' is just me being irritated that everytime one of us "fudsters" brings up a valid point we get steamrolled by assumptions and people blindly defending it without providing much reasoning as to why it is the way it is. I still have respect for everyone on the core team, but don't expect that to keep me quiet. I want this project to ACTUALLY be decentralized and moving towards a "skynet" type system. We are not doing that, we are actively marching towards more centralization and valuing the community less and less by putting the actual power in the hands of the people who may or may not be qualified to manage it properly.
     
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  23. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    @TheDashGuy @AndyDark Bravo! Enjoyed that last exchange. Andy brought up some decent points and so did TheDashGuy.

    The point of this discussion is how to we meet in the middle so every Dash Nation member, core or not, feels valued for their contributions or investment?

    Thank you for your honest and impersonal posts. Discussing things in that way will get us way farther than promoting a culture of "us vs. them", which is the opposite of the concept of Dash Nation.
     
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  24. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    i think this whole debate shows we are moving away from centralization, other cryptos the core teams are totally locked in. at the end of the day if the 'team' are dicks we can be kicked out you have to give Evan a heap of credit for that and it's the main reason I joined along with Evolution strategy. but its early days, we are doing out best. lets kill the negativey a bit yeah? we can't go to market with negativey, you know that. lets leave it for now, tomorrow i just wanna wake up and not read anything other than stuff with my team and code. the door is open if any of you guys want to get closer, you can all add value like i said. peace.
     
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  25. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I have no ill-hearted feelings towards the individuals I berate, honestly people. I just like to stand my ground when I believe something. As with others around here. We all want the same thing, but some of us aren't planning on getting their the same way it seems.
     
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  26. Sapereaude

    Sapereaude Well-known Member
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  27. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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  28. yidakee

    yidakee Well-known Member
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    I think there is still a lot of confusion on what is a DAO and what people do.

    DAO is not an open-for-all environment where everyone has a say in development. That does NOT mean their voices are not heard and taken into account! Decentralised just means there are no central offices, that the team is scattered all over the globe, not that there is no central point of decision making - thank goodness.

    If there were no central point of decision, everyone could decide, countless decisions-againt-decisions would plague development to a complete hault. That would only bring total chaos. It doesn't work. Giving MN or community 100% vinculative say on development is non-sensical. I honestly invite anyone prove me wrong!

    And please @TheDashGuy - stop downtalking one of our most valuable team members, one who is irrefutably recognised as busting his ass working. 99% of people do nothing. @tungfa was invited to the team for a very specific reason. Recognition of getting things done, constant dedication and alignment of vision on where whe want to go, cooperation skills and not being bitchy about everything.

    Every few pages this discussion get swindled back to inicial premisses already discussed. I'm not calling anyone a troll, but this is troll behaviour! You guys wanted answers, you guys got the answers, but are simply not accepting the facts of life!

    Yet team members still come here to try to set things straight. How, what, when and where - have been answered.

    Why do we keep bringing back the same arguments that were already addressed before?

    .
     
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  29. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I would have to disagree. I believe the purpose of the blockchain and the concept of the DAO is to rid us of this corporate for profit world we live in or at the very least even the odds a bit for the smaller guys, not just create a tool for people with money to use to make more money.

    Why we aren't using the DGBB to fund shit like housing projects in shitty countries is beyond me, but I've been repeatedly told to let my vision of what I believe the blockchain can do, go, and I won't, sorry.

    As far as @tungfa goes, he doesn't have to be a core member to do what he does, as you guys make very clear on the daily basis. He should just want to help out of the bottom of his heart for free like the rest of us.

    Core either is a closed community or its not, you can't have it both ways. I honestly feel like everyone should play by the same rules and I intend to keep on that narrative until we all are playing by the same rules.

    "Decentralization or decentralisation is the process of redistributing or dispersing functions, powers, people or things away from a central location or authority."

    I don't know how else to read that definition other than the way I described it, so feel free to point out where I misread something.
     
  30. yidakee

    yidakee Well-known Member
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    I respectfully disagree. You're mixing up concepts. One thing is a decentralised network, the other is a decentralised autonomous organization - the latter meaning;

    Decentralised - no central offices
    Autonomous - does not respond to anyone, is self-regulated, and is self funded
    Organization - defined levels of structure and authority

    You can't be organised without structure.

    It's terribly simple.

    .
     
    #180 yidakee, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
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