Creating a Venezuela DAO to create the First DASH Nation

DeepBlue

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Feb 2, 2018
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"Accounts found to contain crypto transactions at prices which the government considers to be “undermining the national currency” will be “severely punished,” Vice President Tareck El Aissami said." https://news.bitcoin.com/venezuela-monitoring-bank-accounts-crypto-transactions/
Hello I read the reports. I don't see anything to be concerned about on these reports. The use a sensationalist heading to catch people's attention and the talk about illegal activity undertaken with cryptocurrency. I think it is perfectly acceptable for any government to take actions against any form of illegal activity whether using crypto or not. The reports do not mention anywhere the government is cracking down on authorized and legal use of cryptocurrency. The article refers to exchanges charging inflated prices to exchange the currencies.

The Venezuelan government has legalized the use of cryptocurrency and is actively encouraging its use, but in a manner that is legal. Articles like this create sensationalist headlines so people read but then when you read the article it has little to do with how the headline was written. I really dislike articles like this because the headlines are misleading and do not fit with the text in the body of the article.

See this article on the Venezuelan Government issuing a decree that the use of cryptocurrency is encouraged and legal : https://news.bitcoin.com/venezuela-approves-decree-use-cryptocurrencies/ If the government did not want the people to use crypto it would not make it legal.
 

akhavr

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Oct 11, 2014
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Thank for your comment however I disagree with your point of view on this. The main problem in Venezuela is no matter what the government does it is sanctioned by other powerful countries. The reason it is sanctioned is because Venezuela did not want to sell its oil without making a reasonable profit. The US wanted their oil and wanted to buy it at a rate where very little profit would be made. The Venezuelan government wanted however to invest 30% of its oil profit into social programs such as housing and education. We have to remember that main stream media is being controlled to give an image of Venezuelan government that is not necessarily wholly accurate. I have seen independent reporters on Venezuela that give a very different image and view of what the Venezuelan government is like. From the independent reports I've seen the Venezuelan government is doing what it can to support the people however it is having its hands tied by external powerful countries that want to get their hands on their oil. Venezuela has the largest oil reserves of any country in the world and, what a surprise, the leadership is painted in a very negative light by the western press. I don't know the full situation I have spent many months researching it however and I've used sources that are not mainstream media and it appears that the mainstream media is not giving the true picture but a distorted one.

The Venezuelan government has fully legalized the use of cryptocurrency in Venezuela with a formal decree. If they did not have the people's best interests at heart I honestly do not see why they would do that.

I would like to thank you on your comment however because it is a valuable comment to move forward this debate. I do agree with you in the respect about taxes and I think many governments, not just Venezuela, could be more efficient at using our Tax money.
My line of thinking applies for any state government, not just the one of Venezuela. Also, I'm not from "the West", I don't read "west media", etc: I'm the resident of Ukraine, country in fighting off Russian aggression (so I know what "the crisis" means). I was born in the USSR and watched it fail, so I know how "social programs" end.

And even if the government of Venezuela was just a pink ponies vomiting rainbows, it doesn't affect my other 3 points: the expected conversion is unrealistic, marketcap calculation is wrong, we'd better to invest into specific projects with measurable ROI.

So, given that, what would be the metrics you're suggesting to measure, how we can be sure that the measures are true, what are the target levels, and how you're suggesting to achieve them.

PS After you've paid taxes, it's no longer your money, it's their money. No keys => no funds.
 

DeepBlue

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Feb 2, 2018
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My line of thinking applies for any state government, not just the one of Venezuela. Also, I'm not from "the West", I don't read "west media", etc: I'm the resident of Ukraine, country in fighting off Russian aggression (so I know what "the crisis" means). I was born in the USSR and watched it fail, so I know how "social programs" end.

And even if the government of Venezuela was just a pink ponies vomiting rainbows, it doesn't affect my other 3 points: the expected conversion is unrealistic, marketcap calculation is wrong, we'd better to invest into specific projects with measurable ROI.

So, given that, what would be the metrics you're suggesting to measure, how we can be sure that the measures are true, what are the target levels, and how you're suggesting to achieve them.

PS After you've paid taxes, it's no longer your money, it's their money. No keys => no funds.

Hello @akhavr,
thanks for your comment. My Bad for assuming you were from the West, it is not only interesting but valuable to get your view as a Ukrainian. Not only this you are able to give a invaluable perspective based on the history of your country.

On the expected conversion your point is that it is unrealistic. Could you state specifically what value you would give and give you reasoning. I don't mind people disagreeing with a point of view provided they give their reasons and a value response of your own. If you are not able to give a value of your own i.e. how much you think DASH price would increase to if Venezuela took up DASH as a parallel currency then how can I accept your point that it is unrealistic? Could you provide values and a reasoned argument?

Could you clarify what you mean by after you've paid taxes its no longer your money it is their money? The tax money is theirs yes but the remaining amount is ours because we hold the keys.

All governments of the world are soon going to learn a very important lesson which is this:

Governments work for us. Not the other way around.

Somewhere along the line this important distinction seems to have been forgotten. We pay their salaries with our taxes that makes us the customer. With crypto currency whether they like it or not the people will reclaim their power. Because we DO own our money when it is crypto.And as you say WE hold the keys to that money.

In the UK people that work for the government are referred to as Civil Servants, but currently they do not act this way because they hold the power. With cryptocurrency we hold the power. It will take time. But in the not too distant future the people will hold the power. All value comes from the work of the people and crypto gives us back ownership of that value for the first time in history.
 
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jesccs

Active Member
Feb 27, 2018
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Venezuela
www.linkedin.com
Dash Address
XjeuDTKHE3Pe5JMgQk5tka88jGhmdH7uCY
Thank you very much DeepBlue for your consideration and propose this project for the DASH network.

We are honored to direct your eyes to our country and much of that we owe to the work of the DashCCS / Dash Venzuela team.

Our country has enormous potential, not only for our natural resources (oil, gas, minerals, water, etc.) also for our geographical location, the sense of excellence and creativity of its people.

The creation of a DAO Sub for projects in Venezuela is a fabulous and very pertinent idea. Venezuela at this moment is the broth of creativity and enormous opportunities. In addition to the supervision and mentoring of the MNOs, this project has the potential to offer a real ROI for the entire DASH network. Your proposal have a huge potencial to help Dash grow

We, from the AgroCognitive project (and its parent company: Smartbase Group), place ourselves at the disposal of this initiative and we are open to contribute in this initiative.

Thank you very much again.
 

Juan Baró

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Apr 23, 2018
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bitcorpve.com
Dash Address
XbhTC7wK8iQraHcUeGs2WHta4vwnSN3jPF
Argentina has been in an economic crisis for the past 50 years, at least. Why not give them priority over others? Suriname is a neighbor of Venezuela with high inflation. What about them?

Does the idea in this thread give Venezuelans priority just for being Venezuelans? Does the idea presented in this thread include a substantive plan to do anything that cannot be accomplished using the current governance and funding system?
Them can take the oportunity too, but where is the people working? is needed teams there , meanwhile in vzla are a lot of diferent teams and need to grow and improve the work.
 

Juan Baró

Member
Apr 23, 2018
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78
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29
Venezuela
bitcorpve.com
Dash Address
XbhTC7wK8iQraHcUeGs2WHta4vwnSN3jPF
funds: How can this organization be certain that goals are accomplished in exchange for the funds paid? What recourse will there be if a provider fails? What recourse will there be if a provider presents fraud as success? How will the organization prevent mismanagement of funds?
Colective master nodes.
Deepblue alredy says it


Key: sDAO = Sub DAO
but handled by smartcontracts to own master nodes. not only few persons with 1000dash. thousands of persons owning one masternode with 1000DASH. am working on this and other things.
 

akhavr

Active Member
Oct 11, 2014
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On the expected conversion your point is that it is unrealistic. Could you state specifically what value you would give and give you reasoning. I don't mind people disagreeing with a point of view provided they give their reasons and a value response of your own. If you are not able to give a value of your own i.e. how much you think DASH price would increase to if Venezuela took up DASH as a parallel currency then how can I accept your point that it is unrealistic? Could you provide values and a reasoned argument?
Checkout this (long) post on the valuation of cryptoassets https://medium.com/@cburniske/cryptoasset-valuations-ac83479ffca7

I've not done the model for Dash in Venezuela, but it's obvious that your model misses some important pieces and would be wrong at least by an order of magnitude.

Could you clarify what you mean by after you've paid taxes its no longer your money it is their money? The tax money is theirs yes but the remaining amount is ours because we hold the keys.

All governments of the world are soon going to learn a very important lesson which is this:

Governments work for us. Not the other way around.
State governments don't work for you. They do work for themselves and only themselves. Ukrainians slowly learn this for last 15 years through two revolutions and a war with Russia. I won't finance any project that tries to somehow to "educate" state officials or "make them understand" or "trying to get a favorable regulation". Better create alternative systems of economic exchange, grow then through the valley of death, create and test new instruments to govern those systems, and beware that, since every governance system is prone to centralization, the economic system should be censorship resistant.

We pay their salaries with our taxes that makes us the customer.
Paying taxes doesn't make you a customer, since you're not free to pay them to a different "provider" or don't pay them at all.
 
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DeepBlue

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@akhavr thanks for sharing your opinions. I know intellectually your country has had a rough time however I understand that I can't fully appreciate to the full extent how bad without living there and experiencing it first hand.

Checkout this (long) post on the valuation of cryptoassets https://medium.com/@cburniske/cryptoasset-valuations-ac83479ffca7
Thanks for the reference I will look at it. I agree my calculation may well be inaccurate. We cannot say however how inaccurate without actually doing the calculations. The fact is that Venezuela GDP was 349 Billion USD in 2017 which is not an insignificant value. If DASH becomes established in Venezuela the amount of these funds that would flow through DASH would depend on how far DASH became adopted. However even if it was only a conservative 10% of GDP that would still 34.9 Billion in DASH. We don't know because we don't know how much adoption of DASH will occur and nobody has undertaken detailed calculations.

Paying taxes doesn't make you a customer, since you're not free to pay them to a different "provider" or don't pay them at all.
I still maintain the people are the customers and we hold the ultimate power. Whether a person chooses to execute their freedom is their choice e.g. they could just move country which is what 5 million Venezuelans have done. We have a choice. It is not an easy choice and I agree we should not have to have to make that choice. But we still have a choice.

State governments don't work for you. They do work for themselves and only themselves.
When you say they *only* work for themselves are you saying that they do absolutely zero for the people in your country? That means they only take the people's money and do nothing. e.g. no roads, no hospitals, no water or sanitation, no education? They have done nothing for the people whatsoever and all the money has gone to them only?

In which case I could state that "The role of Governments *should* be to serve the people.

What I've learned from this forum thread is that it appears that few other MNO's are willing to voluntarily donate their rewards for just one month to set up a sDAO to help Venezuela and other LATAM countries to establish DASH as a sound currency. If other MNOs thought it would be a good idea perusing they would have voiced their support for this concept here. If only a few MNOs donate to the Venezuela sDAO then I wonder how much impact this would make. Perhaps the idea of an sDAO is simply not an idea MNOs think is worthwhile.
 

akhavr

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Oct 11, 2014
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Thanks for the reference I will look at it. I agree my calculation may well be inaccurate. We cannot say however how inaccurate without actually doing the calculations. The fact is that Venezuela GDP was 349 Billion USD in 2017 which is not an insignificant value. If DASH becomes established in Venezuela the amount of these funds that would flow through DASH would depend on how far DASH became adopted. However even if it was only a conservative 10% of GDP that would still 34.9 Billion in DASH. We don't know because we don't know how much adoption of DASH will occur and nobody has undertaken detailed calculations.
Here's back-of the-envelope calculation:

1. Let's say 10% of GDP (34.9bln USD) will move to DASH
2. Let's guess that 1mln DASH will be used to serve this GDP.
3. If money velocity in DASH will be 1 (DASH is recycled once a year, on average), then the value of DASH will be around 34900mln/1mln ~$34.9K
4. If money velocity in DASH will be 100 (DASH makes a cycle 100 times a year), then the value of DASH will be around 34900mln/100mln ~$349
5. If velocity will be 100 and 10mln DASH will be used to serve this GDP, then the value of dash will be around 34900mln/10000mln ~$3.49

That's why central banks control the money supply so tight and regulate the money velocity: it can make 10000 times difference.

I still maintain the people are the customers and we hold the ultimate power. Whether a person chooses to execute their freedom is their choice e.g. they could just move country which is what 5 million Venezuelans have done. We have a choice. It is not an easy choice and I agree we should not have to have to make that choice. But we still have a choice.
Yes, the people hold the ultimate power. And it's choice of each person when stop to execute his own freedom. Very few are stubborn enough to defend their freedom with weapons in hands, against all odds.
Unfortunately, most are wowing for "greater power", for example regulating road speed limit, even if the official stats show that not enforced speed limits cause less incidents (example from the ongoing flame in the Ukrainian segment of Facebook)

When you say they *only* work for themselves are you saying that they do absolutely zero for the people in your country? That means they only take the people's money and do nothing. e.g. no roads, no hospitals, no water or sanitation, no education? They have done nothing for the people whatsoever and all the money has gone to them only?
There are roads, hospitals, water, sanitation, education. At least in some places. But guess what? Those services are provided by people and organizations in exchange for money. If we can own our money, then we can agree on a common cause (for example roads), pull the funds, hire the contractor. Why a middleman?

In which case I could state that "The role of Governments *should* be to serve the people.
And I'd like to say that people should be able to fly by the sheer willpower, without any other devices. But, alas, there are laws of nature.

And one of them says, that if you grand one group of people the permission to extort funds without your consent ("taxes"), the society will finally transform from free one, through socialistic, to the outright fascist one.

What I've learned from this forum thread is that it appears that few other MNO's are willing to voluntarily donate their rewards for just one month to set up a sDAO to help Venezuela and other LATAM countries to establish DASH as a sound currency. If other MNOs thought it would be a good idea perusing they would have voiced their support for this concept here. If only a few MNOs donate to the Venezuela sDAO then I wonder how much impact this would make. Perhaps the idea of an sDAO is simply not an idea MNOs think is worthwhile.
As I've said before: it's a question of (1) ROI, (2) risks, and (3) governance.
 
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DeepBlue

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As I've said before: it's a question of (1) ROI, (2) risks, and (3) governance.
Is it just about the ROI, Risks and Governance?

ROI:
What is the ROI calculation on a country converting to using DASH and showing the world that it can get back on its feet again? What influence would that have on the perspective of DASH world wide as a stable investment when 32 million people in a country are using it? What PR would that generate? Would investors be more confident to invest in DASH once they see what was achieved in Venezuela? Would they feel more confident in investing in a digital currency that actually helps power an entire country? With a real world use case scenario instead of just a wild speculative investment? Wouldn't you want to invest in such a Digital Currency knowing that an entire country is now using DASH as a form of payment? If Venezuela starts using DASH as a form of payment across the country that would mean that DASH is now backed by something real. It is backed by a nation of users for commerce, investment and savings which means the DASH price is now considerably more stable. When DASH is established in Venezuela what influence will that have on the rest of Latin American countries that have suffered at least to the same level as you have suffered in your own country? Do you think they also would apply the Venezuela model of adopting DASH to their own country with DASH?

I feel we need to focus a good part of our energy, time and investments on converting Venezuela. Focus like a laser and make it happen. When we do this we will have considerably greater possibility of success of then converting Venezuela and from that success other countries will look to Venezuela as a model.

You talk a lot about people power. Isn't this suggested project just that? People empowering people? You say that it is about ROI, Risk and Governance OK do you have any suggested solutions to those issues you could contribute?

Could it be more than just ROI, Risks and Governance?
You have had bitter experience about oppressiveness of the government in the Ukraine and you put emphasis on the importance of freedom of the people from oppression. So who is going to do the work to free the people in the type of society you are talking about? The governments, or us? Is it not the people themselves that are going to achieve this liberation? People like you and me who believe in this cause? If we have the power to help, and make no mistake about it we *do* have that power, do we not have a responsibility to take action to help our brothers and sisters in other countries so that they can start enjoying the freedom that you are referring to? Is it all just down to the ROI, risks and governance?

For me at least it is not just about ROI, risks and governance. I raised this sDAO thread to see if there were any other MNOs willing to help the Venezuelan people that have suffered unimaginable losses by creating a sDAO fund to fund the projects to help the people free themselves. I was hoping that MNOs would at least help me work out the ROI, risks and governance part of it. But so far,with a few notable exceptions, I'm mainly receiving feedback that this idea can't work. Doesn't anybody believe we can make it work?

Surely if the people are to have the power you are talking about the people need to start being pro active in creating their own systems that are run by the people and controlled by the people. This sDAO was intended in achieving just that. We need to get out of the mind frame of Governments doing it for us. We need to claim our power. We need to start finding solutions for ourselves. This sDAO is an attempt to achieve just that. If we are to break free of government control we need self governing systems like this surely we need positive feedback as to how we can *make* it work and not negative feedback how it can't work. So far I've only received feedback on how it can't work and why the sDAO is not going to work. How about changing our mind set and see if we can make it work? Surely that is the mindset we need if the people are to develop systems to govern themselves?

Let me ask you a direct question. If we could convert Venezuela to using DASH do you think it would have been worthwhile for all MNOs to donate just one month's worth of MN rewards to achieve that objective? That is 27,000 DASH IF we could solve the issues of Risks and Governance? Then ask yourself do you think the ROI would be worth it if Venezuela converted to DASH and the massive PR and recognitions for the DASH brand world wide that would come as a result. Would it worth it?

I posted this sDAO concept to primarily achieve what you say you are passionate about and what you say you want to see in the world. I thought MNOs would however be more motivated by ROI but perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps the MNOs are like you and are more motivated about solving the currency crisis and freeing the people. For me this project is more about taking action as best we can to help people be free of suffering when we have the power and means to do so. It is about people solving the money crisis and empowering people to be the owners of their own money. Owning our own money is surely the first step to realising the dream of independence and freedom that you are talking about?

Even if there was no ROI (even though there will be) if that freedom you are referring to could be achieved in Venezuela by establishing DASH would you not think it worthwhile giving up just one month's worth of MNO rewards to achieve that freedom?

I'm asking for assistance and some positive feedback to find solutions to solve the governance issue for this sDAO
I hear what you are saying and I agree the points you raise are important. But could we put ROI and risks aside just for one moment? Just so we can make some progress. We will look at those issues later. For now I'm asking the assistance of MNOs to see if we could find a solution to the issue of Governance for an sDAO for Venezuela to fund their projects? If we can solve this then we can move on and look at the ROI and Risks.
 
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