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Creating a Venezuela DAO to create the First DASH Nation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DeepBlue, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Dash community I would be interested in the Community's ideas on establishing a Venezuela DAO to create the first DASH Nation in the World.

    The treasury funding is currently being used up mainly by core and there is not enough money to fund the Venezuela projects. The importance of funding these projects cannot be underestimated. We must keep up the momentum that we have started if Venezuela is to become the first DASH nation. I would be interested to know if other MNOs may be interested in creating a Venezuela DAO funded by MNO rewards as described below.


    Venezuela DAO Return on investment:
    If the DASH treasury represents 10% of the DASH rewards and that is currently 6,176.72 DASH. MNOs have 45% of the block reward this would make 27,792 DASH per month paid out to the MNOs. At today´s price that is equal to 6,948,000 Million USD.

    This DASH could be held by a trusted party perhaps someone like Evan Duffield or Ryan Taylor or some other trusted party? I, and other MNOs could invest some of time each week to work with the Venezuela teams to work out strategies to promote DASH in Venezuela. We would need to work out how the projects would be selected for funding. However I would suggest that we have something similar to the current treasury voting system however dedicated to Venezuela projects only. At the end of the month the winning projects would be funded. I think however it would be beneficial for some MNOs to interact more closely with the Venezuela teams to formulate the right types of projects to get funded. i.e. the MNOS could suggest projects instead of waiting for someone to post a proposal.

    Below are some approximate financial calculations on the ROI if Venezuela converts to DASH.

    The country´s GDP was 349 Billion USD in 2017. Bear in mind this is including when the country is one of the worst times in its history it still generated 349 Billion USD equivalent. Also bear in mind that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves of any country in the world, making it a very wealthy nation see this reference:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves .

    However Venezuela cannot invest in its petroleum infrastructure at the moment due to the crisis the country is undergoing. If however the country had a stable currency it could find its feet again and start to invest in this industry. This could unlock huge wealth for the country.

    Let is just make a conservative assumption that only 25% of the 349 Billion USD could be in DASH within the next two years. That would give a DASH market cap of around 89 Billion if Venezuela took up DASH. There are 8.1 million DASH coins that would give a DASH price of $10,987 USD per coin. That would make each masternode worth around $109,870,000 USD

    In addition if Venezuela adopted DASH as a parallel currency this news would create a world wide media sensation and many more millions of investors would pile in to invest in DASH. That would give Wachsman something to write about! Even us setting up this DAO would create tremendous buzz in mainstream media which would likely have a positive impact on the DASH price.

    Would it be a good return on investment for MNOs to donate just 1 month’s worth of our earnings to have the very real chance of each masternode being worth around 109 Million in a few years? What if we were asked if we would be willing to donated an entire year´s worth of DASH earnings to Venezuela? Would it be worth it if a Masternode went up to 109 Million?

    If we donated that quantity of DASH I think the conversion of Venezuela would be inevitable. It would also happen very fast because then we would have substantial financial resources. Again this would be an excellent story for Wachsman to promote across all mainstream media.

    What I’m proposing is we consider creating a Venezuela DAO with just 1 month´s worth of DASH MNO rewards from all the MNOs. We would use these funds to promote Venezuela projects to establish DASH. If these funds were to run out we could then consider refunding again if we see substantial return on our investment. We could create a pilot and see if this would work.

    We have not yet created a separate DAO and I cannot think of a better DAO than one for funding the Venezuela projects. In addition MNO could put forward their own Venezuela projects for consideration and the Venezuela teams could find people to undertake those projects.

    The other option is we keep limping along hoarding our DASH rewards each month hoping that something spectacular is going to happen to the DASH price. If feel we need to consider proactive measures to make the DASH price increase instead of hoping it will increase let us use our DASH rewards to make it happen.

    Currently the DASH price is decreasing each month and not only this we are slipping down the coinmarket cap charts. We are now a miserable 14th position and falling. We used to be 4th . We have to take action otherwise there is a risk that our coins could keep devaluing.

    We can´t rely on core to promote DASH. Their strength is in software development not marketing or PR or business development. Our role as MNOs is to make solid business decisions to boost the value of DASH but we could expand that role to be DAO creators.

    I feel we can make it happen. The other option is for us to keep sitting on our butts hoping things are going to happen on their own.

    Business ventures that are successful have the following key ingredients

    a) right timing (we have this)
    b) have the right product or service (we have this)
    c) have large volumes of customers who want/need the service (we have this, there is a currency crisis in Venezuela)
    d) have the right people ( we have this with the Venezuela teams who are working their hearts out. I encourage you to watch the video above with Eugenia and Rodrigo ) we could not hope for a better teams.

    See this interview with Rodrigo and Eugenia on what has been achieved



    e) work your butt off to make it happen. (we have this attitude with the Venezuela teams. Their livelyhood depends on it.)

    f) financial investment. This is our role. We have the DASH tokens. What are we going to do with them. Sit on them or invest them to make it happen in Venezuela?

    The above is the formula that has proven to work time and time again. We have everything in place. The timing is the most important thing of all with the right management.

    Personally I feel this would be a very good investment and I would be willing to invest all my DASH funds for one month for a trial of the Venezuela DAO however I would be willing to do this only if the other MNOs would also be willing to do the same.

    Donating on my own, would have very little impact however. But if I knew all MNOs, or a good number, would also do the same as me I would think it would be an excellent return on our investment because that quantity of DASH would have a major impact.

    We have the power to make it happen. All we have now are token rewards each month that are going down in price. Let us at least consider converting those tokens into labour, sweat and hard work to convert Venezuela to using DASH as a parallel currency. We can do it if we take a chance to trust each other, to trust the Venezuela teams and believe in our product to make real change.

    I would not only be prepared to donate all my months´ DASH earnings if the other MNOs would also vote to do the same but I would also be prepared to put aside some of my time to work with the Venezuela teams to formulate strategies to make it work in Venezuela. I have already been contributing in this regard.

    I personally feel that investing our funds into Venezuela is one of the best possible returns on investment if we can be sure that the money was being used wisely. If we could create a Venezuela DAO and work out how we could run it I think this could have a huge impact in Venezuela and it would give Wachsman PR something noteworthy to write about which would also increase the DASH price as millions of people can see what we are doing.

    What do the other MNOs think about this idea and what would you be prepared to do?
     
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  2. akhavr

    akhavr Active Member
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    While I like the idea, I'd have to say (disclaimer: all below is my ill-informed opinion)

    1. The root cause of the problems in Venezuela is not a destabilized currency system, but inadequate governance system, that steals people's money at gunpoint (AKA "taxation") and by devaluing the means of exchange (AKA "inflation"). Those people profit from this and they won't take lightly any attempt to remove those abilities.
    2. 25% conversion within 2 years is very optimistic figure, even if government would be supportive. But it won't: see (1)
    3. Your calculation of marketcap is wrong: you forgot to account the velocity of money, which would be high for a cryptocurrency (at least 10).
    4. This project should be approached as an investment in a cohort of startups, each pursuing its own specific thesis. Not by funding another conference.

    All above just IMO
     
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  3. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I don't mind big ideas but I think you're way off on this one. However, I have been toying with an idea lately.

    How about we have a proposal for 1000 dash over three months; held in escrow by core. During this three month period, we draw up a plan to donate a masternode to a hospital in Venezuela, with a legal structure in place, such that the rewards from the masternode contribute to the hospitals operations. Obviously there would have to be some due diligence and training, and I don't expect miracles overnight.. but how transformative would it be in, say, five years time?
     
    #3 GrandMasterDash, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  4. anayasmínespitia

    anayasmínespitia New Member

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    Evidentemente la situación de la economía venezolana, escapa de teoría económica, financiera, sociales o políticas. Pero la idea de que Venezuela sea la primera nación Dash, no es tan complicada principalmente porque existen, comerciantes y emprendedores que están en una búsqueda permanente de construir una realidad distinta y Dash puede ser una herramienta eficiente para alcanzar los objetivos, si Venezuela logra ser la primera nación Dash y esto impulsa la economía del país, no solo aumentan el número de transacciones, si no puede ser referencia para otros países que tienen economías complicadas o atípicas como la nuestra. Difícilmente Dash puede encontrar una economía con tantas condiciones a favor de la implementación generalizada.
     
    #4 anayasmínespitia, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  5. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    Side comment, please don't call it a DAO, because it isn't a DAO.
     
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  6. rjjerez

    rjjerez New Member

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    Entiendo perfectamente, todo el trabajo ya hecho sería altamente recompensado con un aumento en el precio de la moneda, porque de esa manera las personas, los empresarios y los comerciantes estarían convencidos de adoptar dash como la segunda moneda de cambio total. Además, los masternodos serían bien recompensados.
     
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  7. Juan Baró

    Juan Baró Member

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    Yes absoluty we need a sub-DAO for Venezuela, no centralization and more oportunities to the people of the coountry, i have any contacts in politics in the national assembly that can be useful but we need to wor with transparency in Venezuela first so i am avaible to improve the work.
    And i also Know Lorenzo Mendoza Owner of Empresas Polar, the bigest private company in Venezuela. .
    Good proposal.
     
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  8. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    I would be interested to hear specifically why you say it is not a DAO. You have only stated it is not a DAO could you give you reasons why you say this?

    My understanding as to the word DAO is as follows:
    The word DAO stands for Decentralized, Autonomous Organization. This setup would be Decentralized, it will be autonomous since nobody owns it, and it is an organization because it is focused on a group of individuals who have a common theme i.e. Venezuela. Therefore my understanding is that this would be a DAO and the word DAO is accurate. In addition Evan Duffield himself uses the word DAO in this context in his presentation which you can see here:
     
  9. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    I believe Evan's usage of the term in that context is incorrect. I would argue that organizations which are funded in this manner are neither decentralized nor autonomous. Had an interesting discussion about this on the discord a while back. "Sub-DAO" is closer, but only if it means "organization under the DAO" as opposed to "smaller DAO". My preferred term is DFO (dash funded organization).
    For further elaboration I would refer to point #1 at https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/building-the-dash-dao.26818/
     
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  10. Juan Baró

    Juan Baró Member

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    Good but included de DAO voting and magnament decentralized system too
     
  11. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Thank for your comment however I disagree with your point of view on this. The main problem in Venezuela is no matter what the government does it is sanctioned by other powerful countries. The reason it is sanctioned is because Venezuela did not want to sell its oil without making a reasonable profit. The US wanted their oil and wanted to buy it at a rate where very little profit would be made. The Venezuelan government wanted however to invest 30% of its oil profit into social programs such as housing and education. We have to remember that main stream media is being controlled to give an image of Venezuelan government that is not necessarily wholly accurate. I have seen independent reporters on Venezuela that give a very different image and view of what the Venezuelan government is like. From the independent reports I've seen the Venezuelan government is doing what it can to support the people however it is having its hands tied by external powerful countries that want to get their hands on their oil. Venezuela has the largest oil reserves of any country in the world and, what a surprise, the leadership is painted in a very negative light by the western press. I don't know the full situation I have spent many months researching it however and I've used sources that are not mainstream media and it appears that the mainstream media is not giving the true picture but a distorted one.

    The Venezuelan government has fully legalized the use of cryptocurrency in Venezuela with a formal decree. If they did not have the people's best interests at heart I honestly do not see why they would do that.

    I would like to thank you on your comment however because it is a valuable comment to move forward this debate. I do agree with you in the respect about taxes and I think many governments, not just Venezuela, could be more efficient at using our Tax money.
     
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  12. Juan Baró

    Juan Baró Member

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    i think people have to hear this about work in Venezuela
    understand the situation and then work better

     
  13. ec1warc1

    ec1warc1 Active Member
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    I think it is great that people are willing to give up some dash earnings to support certain projects, in particular Eugenia's project. I don't understand the need to vote on this. If you want to donate, there have already been addresses set up to donate to:
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-dash-conference-venezuela.15285/page-11#post-191348

    I agree with this definition. My fear is that such a "DFO" organization would have unclear goals, leaders that fall into disagreement with each other over what to do and how to spend funds, and be vulnerable to mismanagement of funds.

    What I like about our current system is that people offer the DAO a set of services at a certain price, and based on their reputation, the fees requested, and whether there is reliable escrow in place, we vote yes or no. It isn't perfect, but at least the goals are set out in advance and we can see if the goals were completed or not.

    I think lumping all of Venezuela into one sub-group could prove disastrous.
     
  14. Juan Baró

    Juan Baró Member

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    Yes even the projects made there works only in Caracas mostly , so is needed a proyect to replicate the iniciatives like , dash merchant, dash helpme, dash text , dash taxi etc, an be managed by a Venzuela DAO not only by groups. and we need a plataform for use those projects in other zones and other countries,

    i talk with a lot of peolple about that, soon gonna be a proyect to grow faster , help new comunities and use the services already done.
    is my humble opinion.
    Warever is a lot of work to do in Venezuela and America
     
  15. Jorge Saez

    Jorge Saez Member

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    Greetings, from the beginning it is clear what are the opinions that are wanted here
    However, respectfully and as a Venezuelan knower a little better about the real situation here, I will give my opinion.

    In general terms, I agree with this idea of the creation of a sub-DAO or DFO as well said @TroyDASH . The implementation of this type of ideas is really favorable both for DASH to continue expanding and to make contributions to the country.

    I agree with this
    Many countries have previously gone through situations similar to those that are going through the country, happened in Chile, Colombia and even in Spain where about 40 educational institutions were closed along with the cutback of social benefits when passing through this situation. All the countries managed to get out of this situation and I am sure that in Venezuela the same thing will happen. We are many who are here to make contributions for this to happen.

    Now, the situation in Venezuela is extremely complex, it is no longer just one aspect or two, it is a conglomerate of interrelated aspects that are allowing inflation to reach record numbers on a daily basis.
    If you review the legal framework in Venezuela, you will find that there are laws for everything, seriously, whether the country has more laws, there are laws for children, for women, animals, environment, health, etc. And all these laws, less in content, are very favorable to the citizens, if they were met, it would be spectacular, the big problem lies in the lack of compliance and the lack of application by the competent government agencies, which generates a kind of speculative anarchy in the national economy.

    If we add to this the total distortion of the bolivar price in relation to the dollar that increases unjustifiably every day and illegally but legitimately because all traders assume this distortion as a starting point for the price of goods or services , coupled with the smuggling of cash that causes a shortage of the same, adding to others the impression of inorganic money by the government, we will simply find the economic chaos that is currently going through the country.

    Venezuela has everything to become a power in the future I hope not very far.

    As well said @DeepBlue , Venezuela, besides being the country with the largest reserves of oil, has many other minerals such as gold, diamond and coltan, which is very attractive for some countries. The sanctions imposed on Venezuela have impeded the importation of many items, here is the birth of the cerado of a national cryptocurrency, to be able to make international commercial transactions breaking these sanctions.

    This has as a consequence the creation of a legal framework favorable to the crypto, more than in any other country, and although in an anomine way these were already being handled, currently the free and massive circulation of the crypto is allowed. In a Win-Win relationship, DASH has experienced these benefits that derive from this legal framework when it began to be adopted by merchants and when the first technical support headquarters of a crypto was created in the world, likewise, many Venezuelans have benefited from DASH by leveraging projects and businesses.

    Certainly the media are not a reliable source because the government media will obviously speak in favor of the government and the opposition will criticize it radically, the best thing at this point for those outside the country is to listen and see both objectively. and draw their own conclusions, as I mentioned earlier the current sutiation is very complex, there are too many factors that influence for this to continue.

    With all due respect, I disagree with this
    The idea here is obvious, it's not just about supporting a conference, that does not represent the country. It is a much broader idea that can have a significant impact for the country and for the expansion of DASH to continue.I know you are working very closely with them, which I consider really very important and I can understand because of this, your point of view.

    We are many here in Venezuela those we want and we will make great contributions to both DASH and Venezuela, certainly the conferences are necessary for there to be direct contact with the user and to be able to explain everything related to DASH, but it is also true that if you want to move forward, more far-reaching projects must be developed, and there are several of us who are already working on this.

    I am pleased to know that there are already working closely with proposal owners, this is undoubtedly a big step and I think it should increase, not only to support and guide and guide them in a way to unify visions in order to develop projects in favor of of the DASH ecosystem, but also to correct and even sanction users of proposals that deviate or go with adverse intentions, as a proposal user this would include me as well.

    In this order of ideas, Venezuela becomes the perfect scenario for DASH to expand, ideas like this one
    They are really spectacular, and show the vision that some members of the network, would be very favorable and continue to show the positive side of DASH and removing from the minds of people that crypts of this type are only for trade in the deepweb and in the darknet.

    What a pleasure to know that here in DASH these kinds of initiatives and ideas are taking place, without a doubt it is a sign that by far, it may be the best crypto in the world of uses of real life cases.

    I hope that initiatives like these, will materialize in the not too distant future.

    This is simply my point of view as a proposal user, as a Venezuelan and a DASH follower.

    Regards,
     
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  16. ec1warc1

    ec1warc1 Active Member
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    Who would be responsible for the money once it is gathered into a fund for use? Who would decide on what it should be spent on? What would prevent improper management of such funds? Why should the desires of Venezuelans to earn in Dash be given a higher priority over those of people from Argentina, Germany, Canada, Tunisia, or any other country? What would constitute a fair payment for services rendered? These are the real questions left unanswered by @DeepBlue and others.

    I believe that if the DAO spent a large sum of Dash in just the right way in Venezuela over the next 2 years, it would be a huge boon for Dash. The voting system we have in place now has as much potential to succeed in achieving this as anything else I have seen thus far. The real question is, can Venezuelans present proposals to the DAO that deserve funding, and once funded, produce the results that they have promised.
     
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  17. Juan Baró

    Juan Baró Member

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    They have not a horrible economic crisis, Venezuela need to leave the Bolivar rest in peace
    i talk about that here : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...ador-de-dashlaravzla-y-dashalicanteesp.38829/


    this is the way !
     
  18. Juan Baró

    Juan Baró Member

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  19. Joney Castellanos

    Joney Castellanos New Member

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    Having Venezuela as a pilot to unify efforts, in the formation of a sustainable consumer network and that understands the value of technology as a tool for social change, is a great project to continue discussing.
    This will surely go a long way, with the impact of building a very strong network, instead of dispersing the tools in isolated efforts to show advantages, beyond a simple financial platform.
    Personally, I believe that the focus of these resources could foster a collective discussion, which allows generating other ideas that strengthen adoption beyond conferences and mass events. Plan together, strategies that allow us to create employment and promote the cycle of profits in Dash, which basically would allow us to go beyond an increase in the level of transactions, which today are located on the days that the events are held , to reach a level of transactions that allows us to recognize that every day people drink their coffee and pay with Dash.
    Having money to carry out adoption plans is more than appreciable, but what we need most is to understand that reciprocity, collaboration and mutual benefit will be the great lesson that Dash's blockchain leaves us as a society.
     
  20. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Thank you for sharing that reference on the word DAO. I have read the reference that you gave. It is interesting. Based on reading the reference and other comments I think the most appropriate description therefore would be Sub DAO which, for convenience would be abbreviated to sDAO. The reasons for suggesting this are as follows:

    We only need as much decentralization to achieve the objectives of decentralization. a) no government, organization or individual can close it down. This would be the case with this set up. It is Autonomous because no single person or organization will own or control it. It is an organization because it has a focused theme and set of objectives. It is a Sub DAO because it is dependent on the DASH DAO's existence to operate however it is in fact independent of control even by the DASH DAO because different MNOS can choose to fund it or not. It is only dependent on the DASH DAO in the respect that it is promoting uptake of DASH and is funded by DASH coins however the power to fund it is distributed amongst different MNOs.

    It could be argued that DASH itself is not that decentralized because the Masternodes are being hosted in cluster organizations such as Node40 etc and there are huge mining farms such as Genesis mining et al that now control the great majority of the hash power. If we were to get 25 to 50 different masternodes involved in this project that would be decentralized enough to be unstoppable. The Venezuela teams are also decentralized as there are dozens of Venezuela DASH teams. The source of the funding is also decentralized because no one MNO is the source of the funds. It is not a DASH funded organization because DASH DAO is not funding it. Dash Masternode owners are funding it with DASH. To that extent it is independent of DASH DAO. This fact can be proven in the respect that if the Venezuela sDAO MNOs decide to not fund it DASH DAO could not fund this because it is not funded at the protocol level.

    Therefore bearing in mind all I've read, Evan Duffields own comments, all the comments that other MNOs have posted I suggest we refer from now on to this project as the Venezuela sDAO.
     
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  21. Edgar Caballero

    Edgar Caballero New Member

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    Hello @DeepBlue,


    I am Edgar Caballero leader of Dash Valencia, we are one of the communities that have been motivated by Dash Venezuela; from Valencia we want to thank you for your interest in helping to overcome the crisis that my country has


    As members of a Dash community, we want Dash to achieve a great adoption as quickly as possible.


    Our community promotes the adoption of Dash in the center of the country, we have advanced, almost without resources, talks with the Carabobo Chamber of Industry , the Chamber of Small and Medium-sized Businesses (CAPEMIAC), the Valencia Chamber of Commerce and even the Valencia World Trade Center (WTC) with whom we have also made some exchanges trying to cover companies and consumers


    We have developed an alliance with the Faculty of Economic and Social Sciences of the Carabobo University, centennial institution and of recognized prestige with professors Jorge Ferreira. and Santiago Guevara, both academics researchers who created the Criptoactivos y Cryptocurrencies subject. ,they saw this proposal and the cryptocurrency Dash as a great opportunity for the country and they are analyzing the macroeconomic impact and at the beginning they see it feasible and worthy of being investigated.


    We are at your service, to promote this idea


    We are thinking of making a treasury proposal so that Dash Valencia and the Carabobo University work on joint projects in cryptoeconomics research and empower Dash at a national level together with Dash Venezuela and the other existing communities.


    Prof. José Angel Ferreira is also Vice Rector of the University
     
  22. ec1warc1

    ec1warc1 Active Member
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    Argentina has been in an economic crisis for the past 50 years, at least. Why not give them priority over others? Suriname is a neighbor of Venezuela with high inflation. What about them?

    Does the idea in this thread give Venezuelans priority just for being Venezuelans? Does the idea presented in this thread include a substantive plan to do anything that cannot be accomplished using the current governance and funding system?
     
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  23. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Key: sDAO = Sub DAO

    The aim of this Venezuela sDAO is for MNOs that have a particular interest in Venezuela to actively participate in providing feedback, support, expertise and funds to support Venezuela convert to DASH. The reason I suggest this sDAO is that it is not favouring one cause as more valid than another, it is simply that there are only so many hours in the day for a MNO to focus their energy, time and funds on a particular project. Each MNO may have an area of knowledge or expertise or for some reason may have a particular interest in an area for funding and development over other areas. Just in the same way that people have different interests. If I speak about myself personally. I am able to contribute more if I study and get to know one subject particularly well. If I do this I can contribute more with more meaningful feedback and suggestions. It is a matter of focus. If I focus my efforts on a particular category I can perform better and I can give more value to it. I have also been very interested in Venezuela as a use case for DASH uptake by a country. If I had unlimited free time then of course I would study other areas of interest but I do not. Therefore I chose to focus on one particular field. In terms of why Venezuela. The fact is Venezuela has taken the most proactive role getting established in DASH earlier than Argentina did and when I was deciding on how I would best serve DASH as an MNO I had to make a decision on an area that I would focus and devote my time.

    Other factors why I chose Venezuela to focus my efforts as a project. The use of cryptocurrency is now officially been made legal in Venezuela by a government decree. That means there is no resistance to DASH being established there. There are a number of teams that I have been working with and devoting my time on projects for working out strategies for promoting DASH. I have been working with them and contributing on calls via VOIP for nearly 6 months now. I know these projects well and I know the team leaders well. Once I have a focus to my work I find I can create more ideas and have better insights because I have more background information.

    Therefore it is simply a means of focus and limited time and the results are higher quality contribution. Another reason for suggesting a Venezuela sDAO is that other MNOs that also have an interest in Venezuela can focus their energies like me on Venezuela if they feel passionate about it as I do. The Venezuela teams would also benefit from knowledgeable MNOs in their projects rather than MNOs that do not know as much about the subjects and the details for the projects.

    If this model should work there is no reason why we could not look at starting other sDAOs e.g. for Argentina and for other types of projects like Africa. Each has their own needs, own projects, own teams with their own strategies for development. So in terms of expertise shared this is one main reason.

    Another reason for setting up a specific focus sDAO for Venezuela is that the Venezuela teams themselves would benefit from feedback from MNOs when there is say a dispute within their teams. Disputes are inevitable as individuals may have a different point of view on how things are run and as there are so many varied projects and limited funds. In order to resolve these disputes it is essential that the MNOs involved with an sDAO have a detailed understanding of the background to the projects and the teams and what they are trying to achieve.

    Another advantage of the sDAO is that more funds could be made available to focused projects that simply could not get funded by the treasury e.g. There was a proposal for the Guayana conference that the treasury did not vote through. Knowing the Venezuela subject quite well I feel this was great loss of an opportunity for DASH. Guayana region is one of the largest industrial areas of Venezuela and accounts for half of all Venezuela by landmass. A conference there is critical converting Venezuela to using DASH. With an sDAO with enough funds such a conference could have possibly been sponsored.

    See this map of Guayana region: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaya...a/File:Venezuela_Regiones_Administrativas.svg

    The objective of the Venezuela sDAO is not to replace all funding for Venezuela projects and take them away from the main treasury proposals. Rather it is meant as a supplement or backup to it. Therefore if there are some valuable proposals that do not go through treasury main proposal the Venezuela teams could resubmit to the sDAO to see if they could get funding there. Also smaller projects that are not worth submitting to the main treasury could be considered in the Venezuela sDAO.

    If other MNOs have particular expertise or interest in creating sDAOs e.g. for Argentina, Brazil, Colombia and Africa etc these are of course extremely valuable and worthwhile. The fact is however MNOs only have so many hours in the day to give quality feedback and we cannot focus on everything.We simply cannot do it and give our best. I aim to give the very best contributions I can to my feedback. In order to do that I have to focus and my choice was Venezuela for that focus. We are simply exploring if this concept would have value.

    Originally I thought that all MNOs could contribute now I'm thinking it would be better for only MNOs that have a particular interest in Venezuela could contribute. This way other sDAOs could be created for other worthwhile proposals and MNOs with their own interests and knowledge could contribute to their chosen sDAO.
     
    #23 DeepBlue, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
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  24. ec1warc1

    ec1warc1 Active Member
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    • Feedback: OK
    • support: OK
    • expertise: OK
    • funds: How can this organization be certain that goals are accomplished in exchange for the funds paid? What recourse will there be if a provider fails? What recourse will there be if a provider presents fraud as success? How will the organization prevent mismanagement of funds?
     
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  25. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Thanks ec1warc1 for your great feedback, you are really helping me to think this through.
    Funds: How will we certain that goals are archived. Excellent question. First of all the MNOs in an sDAO would have much closer contact with the Venezuela proposal owners than on the normal treasury proposal. e.g. I am speaking with team members on the Venezuela projects several times a week. From the quality of the response to the questions an MNO can get a very good idea how involved a proposal owner is, if they know their proposal or if they have thought it through thoroughly. Getting to know the team is an essential part of ensuring we can trust a team. Therefore to start with I think we would have to start out with teams that we know and have proven to be successful in past projects. Then these teams can then be involved in the screening and selection process themselves.

    In terms of how can we be sure that a team delivers on what it says it would. I have proposed to DASH Watch an evidence validation system for proposal owners. This validation system is graded on a scale of 0 to 4 for each statement they proposal owner makes about their project. 0 being the lowest level of validation and 4 being the highest level of validation. I do not know yet if DashWatch will implement my suggestions however they have expressed an interest in this system. However even if DashWatch decide not to implement the system the sDAO could implement this system. Therefore we would request proposal owners to provide regular feedback and to have their feedback validated by evidence. Some examples of evidence include: Photos of the products or services they are providing, video, copies of contracts or agreements etc.

    In terms of how we can ensure that what a proposal owner delivers we could have a clear agreement written out on what would be achieved, the schedule and how funds would be released as each landmark of the project is completed. We would have much closer connection with the team leads than a normal treasury proposal because I think MNOs who are investing their own money would want this to ensure their money is being well spent.

    If some MNOs wanted to support the sDAO but did not want to spend much time working with the proposals themselves there could be an option for delegation of voting rights to an MNO or MNOs that are willing to invest in the time with the teams. If an MNO that has had rights delegated does not perform those rights could be withdrawn. Building a reputation and proven history of positive contribution would be essential in an sDAO setup because it would be much smaller than the treasury and therefore be more vulnerable to potential bad players or trolls. Therefore I would suggest that because of this added vulnerability a new type of voting power be setup. This would be based not only on the amount of DASH a person contributes but also their proven contribution history to a project with the teams. The teams would start to know who contributes more significantly to a project and this could be factored into the reputation factor. My concern is that with a smaller sDAO and fewer MNOs it could be subject to a troll from possibly another coin who could afford many Masternodes just to have voting power to disrupt the sDAO. Therefore safeguards would need to be built in that would minimise this risk.

    Here are a few examples of factors that could be built into an MNOs voting power for such a sDAO

    A reputation factor could be derived for each MNO in the sDAO depending on a number of criteria not just the amount of DASH these could be as follows:

    1. The reputation of the MNO in the DASH community and a factor given by other MNOs on their contribution to DASH proposals in the past.
    2. The contribution of the MNO to the Venezuela projects as voted by the Venezuela teams.
    3. The length of time a MNO has been a member DASH forum and other channels at DASH
    4. The amount of DASH an MNO contributes to the sDAO.

    A factor could be derived from the above criteria. As to how these criteria would be derived we would need some type of voting system for points 1 to 3. Point 4 could easily be derived.

    We would need a framework e.g. a website specifically designed so that we could manage and run the sDAO and provide the voting rights that would be required in order to administer this sDAO. This sDAO website creation would be the first funded project of the sDAO but once created the tools could be used for the creation of other sDAOs in the future.

    In terms of how could we guarantee the jobs would be undertaken successfully. I would say we would have much greater success than with the current treasury in ensuring the jobs would be successful. Mainly because I could not see MNOs that were part of a sDAO allowing projects to go through that were not completely and thoroughly validated because their DASH is on the line. e.g. the Charlie Shrem proposal would never have gotten through the sDAO because I would have requested that Charlie provide a copy of the contractual agreement with Payza to ensure that what he said was what was going to be delivered. I would have also insisted to speak with Payza to confirm what was said is what would be delivered. I would have also grilled Shrem on every detail of the project over a series of calls and requested evidence of what he said he was going to deliver. If there were any details I was not sure about I, and I'm sure the other MNOs in the sDAO would not OK the project if there were details on a project that were not fully worked out and were watertight. I think this is the benefit of the sDAO. Much closer attention to detail than on our current treasury proposals.

    As to how we could 100% guarantee funds were used correctly. I don't think we could do that with any proposal however I am certain we would do a better job than the current treasury set up. Currently MNOs who know very little about projects are voting if they think it sounds good. There are some questions raised and suggestions etc but it would not be anywhere near the level of attention to detail an sDAO would receive with MNOS discussing directly with the team leads all details of a project.

    The difference with an sDAO over the current treasury is that the MNOs have "skin in the game" . We would be working with the teams to develop the proposal instead of the current set up of passively waiting for someone to put a proposal forward and determine all the details of the proposal. The MNOs in a sDAO would work with the team leads to develop the proposal ideas to ensure they are right and will have the best chance of being successful.

    I have worked with teams remotely for many years and have a quite a lot of experience of working with remote workers. You can quickly tell if someone is truly involved with a project and their motivations based on their responses to detailed questions over many calls and correspondence with the team leads.
     
    #25 DeepBlue, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  26. AlejandroE

    AlejandroE Active Member

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    I have being talking with DeepBlue about this idea and I fully support it. We need a way to fund more projects here in order to get faster results (massification). Yesterday we endedn with these topics:

    I think we have to define what you are mention:
    - The way mnos will enter to the DAO
    - Is there going to be a max number of mnos that can participate? (The bigger the DAO the more descentralized it will be)
    - How is going to be measure the voting power: amount of time, amount of quality time (how this is going to be measured? Upvotes and downvotes on comments?) and amount of funds.
    - Proposals submission system (is there going to be a fee for anti scam? Is there going to be a limit for each proposal to requesting funds like dashboost? Time of voting?)
    - Who is going to manage the funds of the mnos (escrow from the Core?)
    - We have to do a interphase (website) for this just like dashboost and dashcentral.
    - We must have a neutral auditor in order to supervise the work of the proposals. It is better if this auditor is in ground.
    - We need to define what happen if a team submitsa proposal in the treasury and in this DAO at the same time (or either members of the same time or persons who have relations with the team), will this be possible?

    Whatever the name that this system has (DAO, subDAO, funding system) it is a brilliant idea to push the work here. It is a win-win for everyone.

    Best,
    Alejandro
     
    #26 AlejandroE, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  27. billyjoeallen

    billyjoeallen New Member

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    I'm confused. Do the Venezuelans not understand that it was the destruction of property rights (nationalization, basically theft by the government, of foreign investment) that caused the crisis in the first place? There were other forms of socialist mistakes that contributed, such as punishing highly productive people in the form of high taxes to subsidize low productivity people such as the homeless. The leaders are communists and IMO there is no way they will accept anything even remotely resembling a free market solution unless they get a piece of the action. Should Dash pay off Maduro? Venezuela already has the Petro if they want to replace their national currency or the Dash Venezuela people can buy their own masternodes if they have the money to do so. I have enormous sympathy for people hurt by the evil socialist policies of the Venezuelan government, but anything other than simply letting Venezuelans participate in the network like everybody is is either doing a deal with the devil or it's charity work, not business. Who's to say it won't be OUR foreign investment that gets nationalized next?
     
    #27 billyjoeallen, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  28. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Hello Edgar, thank you for your post and your interest in this concept. It would be interesting to see what the university think of this concept and perhaps give a different perspective. The aim of this posting is to develop the idea as far as we can and to determine if it might be feasible. Then if shows potential we might decide to run it on a small scale first to iron out the issues. It is only though practical experience and realising the issues with the theoretical model that we can then develop it into something that would work in the real world. There will be issues that we will not think of and I'm sure there will be many challenges to overcome before it could work in a practical sense. I think we have to start somewhere and I hope to hear from other Venezuelan teams what they think about this concept. Thank you for your support.
     
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  29. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue New Member
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    Hello Alejandro, as always, you contribute with insightful comments that have got me thinking. I will need some time to sit with your questions. I'll post back when some answers come forward. At the moment I don't have an immediate answer to your questions. This sDAO is a new concept and I don't yet know if anyone has worked through the details of how it would work or if there is an existing model we could use / adapt to fit our needs. If anyone knows of anything could you post here so we could study it and see how we could apply it to this proposal. From some of the comments it appears that some people do not like the concept. It might be good however to continue to develop the concept as far as we can go and see what develops out of it. I really welcome all comments, especially one's with constructive questions like yours. I love this type of feedback because the concept must evolve to be able to handle all issues raised adequately if it is to prove as a robust and worthy venture. It is wonderful to be able to post an idea then receive the feedback like this. Out of the comments, questions and doubts solutions and different perspectives the concept begins to evolve. The idea has already evolved since it was posted based on some interesting and challenging questions raised.
     
    #29 DeepBlue, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  30. billyjoeallen

    billyjoeallen New Member

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