Changing the block reward allocation

[peter]

Hi,

What do you think about this decision proposal in order to decrease PoW and to increase PoS:

"Change the block reward allocation to 5% (miners) / 25% (budget) / 70% (MNs)." ?
And with an intermediate step during 10 months with 10/25/65, so that miners can better adapt to the new situation.

Here are the pros and cons, that I see:

Pros: less PoW (less energy consumption), more PoS, more budget.
Cons: some miner hardware investments cannot be amortized. (But such investments are risky anyway...)

Do you see other pros or cons?

Kind regards, Peter

Edit:
Just to be clear: This proposal is not about abandoning PoW. It’s needed in L1 and will stay as long, as L1 uses it. It’s rather about not wasting resources, that can be used elsewhere. Thanks to chainlocks, there is no more need to keep high hashrates.
And to all the MNOs, who believe "therealDashman21", who think, that I’m gaslighting, that I want to destroy Dash, that I’m promoting false narratives, that I’m an attacker and a bad actor: Just read up and reflect on this subject. I can’t help you further.

 

[qwizzie]

Previous change with regards to the Dash block reward allocation :

Governance proposal : https://www.dashcentral.org/p/TREASURY-REALLOCATION-60-20-20
Date : 2023-09-08
Change : 60% (mno) / 20% (miners) / 20% (budget)

This governance / polling proposal was initiated by DCG, because they were running out of funding and i guess they wanted to avoid having to implement a drastic reorganisation. The network ultimately supported this decision. I voted against this because i did not think this was a long term solution for DCG and thought they would be in the same situation (out of reserves and funding) a few years later and i also did not think it would lead to more budget proposal requests from people outside those that were / are already participathing in the DAO.

Jumping forward to June 2025 and DCG is still in the same dire financial situation, the doubling of the budget system from 10% to 20% did very little to longterm fix their running out of reserves problem. DCG now survive purely thanks to their monthly supplemental budget proposals (the leftover funds / unallocated funds) on top of their operations budget proposals (combined DCG claims up to 65% of the DAO budget every month i think). Also there has not been an increase in budget proposals from outside those already participathing in the Dash DAO.

OP wants to change above mentioned Dash block reward allocation to 70% (mno) / 5% (miners) / 25% (budget)

This means increasing the DAO budget once more (from 20% to 25%) --> DCG will no doubt be raising their budget proposals requested amount (both their Operational budget proposals and their Supplemental budget proposals / Leftover budget funding). I still have the same problem with that as during the last Dash block reward allocation change (when it changed from 10% to 20%), in this case it is putting a bandaid / quickfix on something that in my eyes needs a more structural longterm solution for DCG. Also take into account that the yearly -7.1% cut on Dash blockrewards will diminish the available DAO budget more and more coming years, people / businesses that are relying on the DAO do need to take that into account and need to adapt to this. So increasing the DAO budget (again !) in any way is a big no for me.

With regards to increasing the 60% to 70% (mno) : i rather have us not not mess with the Dash blockreward allocation between miners and masternodes anymore, unless it is for phasing out PoW for PoS completely with regards to the Dash Main chain. But i think that is something that needs a lot more study and investigation.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

I don't think dash should move to pure PoS, though it does appear to be on the slippery slope to do so. I'd much rather see dash drop it's ASIC friendly X11 and replace it with a random GPU friendly algo.

For allocation, can we first move voting to a second mining algo and let those lottery winners vote instead of masternodes? Can't be much worse than the current situation. I suspect things would be a lot different under those rules and we'd see allocations change dramatically.. but fat chance of that ever happening.

 

[peter]

the doubling of the budget system from 10% to 20% did very little to longterm fix their running out of reserves problem.

Why do you think that? I think, that with less budget the situation for DCG would be worse.

Also there has not been an increase in budget proposals from outside those already participathing in the Dash DAO.

Do you think, that this is related to the increase of the budget? If yes, why please?

DCG will no doubt be raising their budget proposals requested amount (both
their Operational budget proposals and their Supplemental budget proposals /
Leftover budget funding). I still have the same problem with that

I really would like to understand your problem. There are developers in DCG, who are highly motivated and working day and night. MNOs decide about their proposals. What is wrong with them please?

bandaid / quickfix on something that in my eyes needs a more structural longterm solution for DCG

What is the "something"? If you think, what DCG needs a structural longterm solution, then please describe the problem and what solution you suggest. I agree, that the organisation of DCG is certainly improvable. But I think that the main problem is, that there is a lot of work to do (development, testing, management), and that just costs money.

Also take into account that the yearly -7.1% cut on Dash blockrewards will diminish the available DAO budget more and more coming years, people / businesses that are relying on the DAO do need to take that into account and need to adapt to this.

IMO this is an argument for increasing the budget percentage. If you disagree, then please tell us why?

But i think that is something that needs a lot more study and investigation.

Indeed, that’s why I’m asking here for relevant arguments.

 

[peter]

I don't think dash should move to pure PoS,

Quite frequently people ask for more PoS and less PoW. This proposal tries to address that with almost no development efforts.

I'd much rather see dash drop it's ASIC friendly X11 and replace it with a random GPU friendly algo.

Ok, why not. But this would need development efforts. You can make a proposal for that.

 

[therealdashman21]

Quite frequently people ask for more PoS and less PoW.

Citation? Dash is a PoW coin and I've not seen anyone seriously advocate that Dash should become PoS. And people asking for things is not itself a valid justification for doing them. And neither is "lack of development efforts". Even if a bad thing "doesn't require any development effort" that doesn't mean we should do it. Its a bad thing, we shouldn't.

Ok, why not. But this would need development efforts. You can make a proposal for that.

Why are you so happy to accept Monero technology in Dash, going backwards? X11 is a unique and powerful hashing algorithm. Why are you two greasily going back and forth over a concept that should by rights be a non-starter in the Dash network? Removing Dash's unique hashing algorithm and trying to turn it into Monero is a cynical and dastardly thing to do, and you both should be ashamed for suggesting it, and removed from the network (i.e. banned from here).

 

[greatwolf]

Hi,

What do you think about this decision proposal in order to decrease PoW and to increase PoS:

"Change the block reward allocation to 5% (miners) / 25% (budget) / 70% (MNs)." ?
And with an intermediate step during 10 months with 10/25/65, so that miners can better adapt to the new situation.

Here are the pros and cons, that I see:

Pros: less PoW (less energy consumption), more PoS, more budget.
Cons: some miner hardware investments cannot be amortized. (But such investments are risky anyway...)

Do you see other pros or cons?

Kind regards, Peter

Edit:
Just to be clear: This proposal is not about abandoning PoW. It’s needed in L1 and will stay as long, as L1 uses it. It’s rather about not wasting resources, that can be used elsewhere. Thanks to chainlocks, there is no more need to keep high hashrates.
And to all the MNOs, who believe "therealDashman21", who think, that I’m gaslighting, that I want to destroy Dash, that I’m promoting false narratives, that I’m an attacker and a bad actor: Just read up and reflect on this subject. I can’t help you further.

nack from me, this does nothing to improve Dash's market cap ranking or adoption -- it's just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. Also at 5% PoW you're basically abandoning it without outright doing so. This also reduces stakeholder diversity.

 

[peter]

at 5% PoW you're basically abandoning it without outright doing so

Please read the update of my post.

This also reduces stakeholder diversity.

Thanks to Crowdnode the stakeholder diversity is growing anyway. And thanks to Mikhail there will be the "Dash Trustless Staking DApp".

 

[therealdashman21]

Please read the update of my post.

Thanks to Crowdnode the stakeholder diversity is growing anyway. And thanks to Mikhail there will be the "Dash Trustless Staking DApp".

Why are you ignoring my post? Do you not think its important to address the concerns of network participants? I am a masternode owner and neither you nor grandmasterdash have the right to ignore my well-founded assertions and questions. I quoted both of you and addressed your posts directly, not only is it rude for you to ignore that, but ignoring my post also indicates that you do not have the best interests of the network at heart. Please respond.

And to all the MNOs, who believe "therealDashman21", who think, that I’m gaslighting, that I want to destroy Dash, that I’m promoting false narratives, that I’m an attacker and a bad actor: Just read up and reflect on this subject. I can’t help you further.

Also, this doesn't bode well for your message; if you were not gaslighting, then you would address me directly instead of in an edit. Not addressing me directly while pretending like my concerns are not valid is in fact gaslighting. STOP DOING THAT.

Also, I have been in the network since 2015, I know and have defeated MANY bad actors that have tried to forum slide and otherwise manipulate Dash into self-destructive behavior. You can definitely help further by ADDRESSING MY POSTS AND CONCERNS, STOP GASLIGHTING ME AND STOP BEING A BAD ACTOR. Not replying to me directly, a masternode owner with legitimate critiques of your pre-proposal, is acting in bad faith and you should be censured for it.

KNOCK IT OFF!

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Why are you ignoring my post? Do you not think its important to address the concerns of network participants? I am a masternode owner and neither you nor grandmasterdash have the right to ignore my well-founded assertions and questions. I quoted both of you and addressed your posts directly, not only is it rude for you to ignore that, but ignoring my post also indicates that you do not have the best interests of the network at heart. Please respond.

I didn't see you mention me but now that you have, just ask me what you want to know.

Other than run nodes, I don't actually do anything for dash anyway, so my pov is negligible, you accept it or not.

For me, dash as it is now is just another coin with expensive web3 aspirations. I don't understand how anything about dash is useful these days, except for spending pocket money on bitrefill. No ai, no dex, no marketplace of it's own. No app of it's own that is actually useful, really. The idea that one coin is going to be "digital cash" has long gone it's sell-by-date. What people want and have in other coins is actual usable application, whether that is prediction markets, chatbots and so on. Relatively speaking, barely anyone here is trying to build an app that is actually useful and putting it front and center, instead of this dated idea that payments must be front facing on startup. Sorry if that hurts but that's truth. At least with decred you actually get a usable dex, to which dash is broken and not native, and you get private access to compute and a marketplace in it's infancy. With beam you get access to a private stablecoin and bridged ethereum. What did you say dash does that isn't introspective?

You could say this is off-topic but I disagree. We are having this conversation literally because there is desperation to climb from the bottom of the barrel. That dash has all but abandoned PoW, now governance is literally just a case of buying masternode shares without significant price increase, because who but a few hands actually wants to keep dash long term?

If anyone here wants to fix dash it must first fix governance and take it from the hands of whoever is using it now.. because clear as day it has proven itself to be almost useless. DCG and specifically Samuel Westrich have made it clear they have no intention of being profitable, which means they will continue to live off entitlement. Please spare me the sob story of how much they have achieved on a small budget.. fact is - and by all means ask him directly - he has no intention of making DCG a profitable enterprise, which ultimately means he has no incentives to actually give people what they want and will pay for, like in a fully functioning market.

Sorry, what was your question?

 

[AgnewPickens]

I didn't see you mention me but now that you have, just ask me what you want to know.

Other than run nodes, I don't actually do anything for dash anyway, so my pov is negligible, you accept it or not.

For me, dash as it is now is just another coin with expensive web3 aspirations. I don't understand how anything about dash is useful these days, except for spending pocket money on bitrefill. No ai, no dex, no marketplace of it's own. No app of it's own that is actually useful, really. The idea that one coin is going to be "digital cash" has long gone it's sell-by-date. What people want and have in other coins is actual usable application, whether that is prediction markets, chatbots and so on. Relatively speaking, barely anyone here is trying to build an app that is actually useful and putting it front and center, instead of this dated idea that payments must be front facing on startup. Sorry if that hurts but that's truth. At least with decred you actually get a usable dex, to which dash is broken and not native, and you get private access to compute and a marketplace in it's infancy. With beam you get access to a private stablecoin and bridged ethereum. What did you say dash does that isn't introspective?

You could say this is off-topic but I disagree. We are having this conversation literally because there is desperation to climb from the bottom of the barrel. That dash has all but abandoned PoW, now governance is literally just a case of buying masternode shares without significant price increase, because who but a few hands actually wants to keep dash long term?

If anyone here wants to fix dash it must first fix governance and take it from the hands of whoever is using it now.. because clear as day it has proven itself to be almost useless. DCG and specifically Samuel Westrich have made it clear they have no intention of being profitable, which means they will continue to live off entitlement. Please spare me the sob story of how much they have achieved on a small budget.. fact is - and by all means ask him directly - he has no intention of making DCG a profitable enterprise, which ultimately means he has no incentives to actually give people what they want and will pay for, like in a fully functioning market.

Sorry, what was your question?

Please stay on topic and don't FUD this thread. User reported. Next instance comes with a warning.

 

[peter]

Citation?

Of course I have the right to ignore your questions.
But for once, I’ll answer: During the last about 12 months I’ve read this several times on Discord.
If you do a search, I’m sure, you’ll find such messages.

But anyway: Needless hashrate is just unnecessarily heating the atmosphere, so it’s a waste.

STOP BEING A BAD ACTOR

Since you continue to insult me, there won’t be any more exceptions.

 

[therealdashman21]

Of course I have the right to ignore your questions.

No, you absolutely do not. This is not your living room, this is a public forum to discuss Dash preproposals. I am a MNO, you have an obligation to answer all of my legitimate and relevant questions.

But for once, I’ll answer: During the last about 12 months I’ve read this several times on Discord.
If you do a search, I’m sure, you’ll find such messages.

Please provide even one citation, I didn't ask you to give me homework, I asked you to cite your claim that "Quite frequently people ask for more PoS and less PoW." If such is really the case, then you should obviously be able to find stakeholders (i.e. MNOs) that make that claim. If not, then you do not have the right to make that claim yourself and use it to support your arguments. That is circular logic and invalid. Stop using bad logic to promote falsehood!

But anyway: Needless hashrate is just unnecessarily heating the atmosphere, so it’s a waste.

You don't have the right to determine that. There is no such thing as "needless hashrate". Mining is part of the economy of Dash. Decreasing mining decreases that economy. You are not the energy police and have NO RIGHT to try and dictate that Dash "use less energy because I personally deem it a waste". KNOCK THAT OFF!

Since you continue to insult me, there won’t be any more exceptions.

Calling you a bad actor when you're acting in bad faith is not an insult. You do not have the right to ignore the objections of MNOs on your pre-proposal. The fact that you wish to do so indicates that you are indeed a bad actor trying to force false narratives on the Dash community ("mining is a waste of energy") and thus should be censured and prevented from creating proposals.

Stop being a bad actor!

 

[GrandMasterDash]

But anyway: Needless hashrate is just unnecessarily heating the atmosphere, so it’s a waste.

You got to be trolling, surely from a technical perspective you know how and why Nakamoto Consensus works.

These days, PoW looks a lot like PoS where money talks and only the rich get to play. Mining isn’t just about solving complex math anymore; it’s about who can afford the gear to run the numbers and win the lottery. Sure, there are exceptions, but the reality is that ASIC mining chips are seriously centralized. A handful of manufacturers control production, and governments love to regulate or sanction hardware like GPUs and AI tech, making the whole system even more controlled.

That’s why GPU mining is the only logical choice for a fair and decentralized consensus mechanism. Unlike ASICs, GPUs are more accessible, keeping the network open to a wider range of participants while still packing the power needed to get the job done. CPU mining is an option but GPUs do everything faster and better. So, for a truly decentralized and resilient blockchain ecosystem, GPU mining is the sweet spot, especially when the mining algo keeps things randomized.

 

[therealdashman21]

You got to be trolling, surely from a technical perspective you know how and why Nakamoto Consensus works.

These days, PoW looks a lot like PoS where money talks and only the rich get to play. Mining isn’t just about solving complex math anymore; it’s about who can afford the gear to run the numbers and win the lottery. Sure, there are exceptions, but the reality is that ASIC mining chips are seriously centralized. A handful of manufacturers control production, and governments love to regulate or sanction hardware like GPUs and AI tech, making the whole system even more controlled.

That’s why GPU mining is the only logical choice for a fair and decentralized consensus mechanism. Unlike ASICs, GPUs are more accessible, keeping the network open to a wider range of participants while still packing the power needed to get the job done. CPU mining is an option but GPUs do everything faster and better. So, for a truly decentralized and resilient blockchain ecosystem, GPU mining is the sweet spot, especially when the mining algo keeps things randomized.

Who is paying you to lie about Dash and promote Monero tech among our community? Why are you trying to infiltrate our coin with garbage lies, false narratives and "GPU algorithms"?

Dash is a pow coin, if you don't like it, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!