Budget Proposal - Vendor-Experience UPDATED

TanteStefana

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I'm going to try to make my points again in case someone new comes along and doesn't want to read so many pages. The proposal is for a new core team to do research and development of what will be open source equipment and software that will do everything a merchant needs to accept Dash.

I feel this project is extremely important and ask you all out there to please try to see my point, this is something that needs to be done by the core team, not a for profit entity. Whomever the merchant wants to work with to exchange their Dash to Fiat, if they want to do that, is separate, what we want to build is a point of sale system that works seamlessly for merchants of all types so that Dash's most unique and useful ability, instant transactions, can be put to real world use. What Evan et al are doing right now will be great for online / daily and even possibly face to face transactions by making it easier, but for face to face transactions, it will make VERY little difference. Because it's already so dang easy to use NOW, and is ready to be used NOW except for the fact that Merchants have nobody to help them set up this system in their stores. And that is where Dash is unique.

We have an opportunity to fund a third pillar, the merchant services pillar (as opposed to the core development and marketing pillars) so that we can stay ahead of the competition. Competition is always right on our tail. We have a group of talented people who deeply understand this need and have many great ideas on how to get over this adoption hurdle. Please vote YES to this proposal. It's that important.

I can think of no project more in line with what the budget system was intended to fund. What could be more central, more important than to create merchant adoption with open sourced product design and software? As well as support? Seriously?

With open sourced product design and software, anyone can step up and start a little company - like a handy man- and for no research or development, begin building these things and installing them in local stores. With hundreds or thousands of such people all around the country/world willing to install these, and provide service and support, they would vault adoption into the stratosphere. Not only that, there would be hundreds of small companies thriving, and merchants would get excellent service and products for a very cheap price. No fancy "Hewlett Packard" logo on the equipment that needs to be paid for, instead, maybe the service provider "handy man" can put his own logo on it. There would be no resistance to adoption, add exchange support of your choice until Dash stabilizes and you no longer care about purchasing fiat, and you're done. Those exchanges already exist, all we need is the hardware and software to install.

Current plans are for hardware to run the cash register, software to interface with the Dash Network, and software that does inventory and other things, integrated into the most popular merchant solutions being used today so that accepting Dash is just as smooth for the merchant as accepting cash.

Again, please vote yes! dash-cli mnbudget vote-many 1cfc2525f33d8dee81640f6860fc85751acea552724ec58d6619f7fcee694ea1 yes
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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I'd just like to add that this whole process is truly fascinating. I've been talking to people on Twitter today about the way the DGBB is run and the way we have to come to a consensus to move forward, all being decentralized with voters from around the world, and let me tell you, they are impressed.

I was skeptical about this initiative at first, but the proposers, (all in their own way, obviously) have convinced me that this is something that we need to explore. What's the use in having lots of fancy wallets, and sending Dash to each other if there is nothing we can do with it. Bitcoin was doing this the opposite way, they got merchant adoption with no one spending.

We have a chance here to grow our userbase, and our merchant base at around the same time. A balance is needed here. I'm not telling anyone how to vote, but I would really like to see what these gentlemen are capable of. Failing that, as I said, just this process and debate we are having is making us all winners in the eyes of outsiders. :)
 

TanteStefana

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I also find this stimulating. Sorry if my tone is too passionate, I get that way, LOL.
 

InTheWoods

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Most of the people who voted no, myself included, have an issue with the long 8 year duration which, in my view, has to be amended. Yes, it can be down voted down later on theoretically which presents some problems as David mentioned, but the guys can also amend the proposal to something like 6 months and if all works out as expected they can then start a Phase 2.

Funding a project for such a long period raises some questions like:

* Should the budget be pegged to USD instead of being DASH based? DASH prices can go up a lot in 8 years and they could end up with lots of money on their hands.
* Who will manage this money?
* What will happen with the excess funding?

This budget proposal and the whole drama also brought forward some issues like - should we trust someone as unstable as Camosoul? He basically cursed and insulted the whole community and not only that but announced he withdrew from the project only to change his mind later. How can you trust a guy like this to talk to the merchants, be persuasive and not be a total ass when he's this rough around the edges? Also, do we want someone like Camosoul to represent Dash and be in some capacity the face of the project going around talking to various merchants? I sure don't. I really believe the guy is doing meth or coke or both.

Should we throw a good idea away? Voting no is not throwing the idea away but refining the idea. Initially these guys came up with a half baked proposal 3-4 paragraphs that were extremely vague and asked for a 8 year funding. They went back to the drawing board and came back with a more detailed proposal the 2nd time. Community loved that which is why many changed their vote to yes. They can do the same once again; they can amend the duration, look into pegging the budget to USD, promise to have Camosoul do the grunt work and not actually talk to people, or not have him involved entirely and so on. These are all things that can be improved.

Trust me, these guys won't back away if you vote no. Don't be blackmailed by Camosoul`s hissy fits and unstable mood swings. If they can't handle amending the project the 3rd time, perhaps they're not the best guys for the job. Idea is good but doesn't mean it has to be this crew to do it and in this current format.
 
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InTheWoods

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It appears that Masternode owners are becoming more adventurous! As of this post, only 43 more votes to pass!
Being adventurous with money is a recipe for disaster.

There were 37 votes required and now number jumped to 43. People are starting to realize this is not as black & white as some would have you believe.

 

acidburn

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C'mon guys... Vote yes! Get this passed so the guys can start working! We need a POS to get the coin to go places! Later after a few years just vote no!
 
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BrainShutdown

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Being adventurous with money is a recipe for disaster.
Wrong! That's only the case if you don't know what you're doing.
You just spam this thread with your negativity without bringing anything new to the table. It's just boring...
 

InTheWoods

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Wrong! That's only the case if you don't know what you're doing.
You just spam this thread with your negativity without bringing anything new to the table. It's just boring...
What did your post bring to the table? I don't believe that's negativity at all. It's constructive criticism.

Plenty of posts here telling people to shut up. That's negative.
 

BrainShutdown

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C'mon guys... Vote yes! Get this passed so the guys can start working! We need a POS to get the coin to go places! Later after a few years just vote no!
Exactly! That's what we need.
After the lamassu integration one will be able to just buy Dash with cash and then what? Where will you spend it? Are you going to speculate in some exchange?
We need to create the loop, buy -> spend, no brainer!
 

BrainShutdown

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What did your post bring to the table? I don't believe that's negativity at all. It's constructive criticism.

Plenty of posts here telling people to shut up. That's negative.
I corrected you! I might start to do that more...
 

InTheWoods

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Exactly! That's what we need.
After the lamassu integration one will be able to just buy Dash with cash and then what? Where will you spend it? Are you going to speculate in some exchange?
We need to create the loop, buy -> spend, no brainer!
No one here is arguing if this is needed or not. I believe pretty much everyone is behind the idea. It's how we get there that's being debated.
 
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InTheWoods

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We get there by starting to solve the technical limitations in front of us ASAP. Easy!
No need rushing into things though. It took the guys few hours to amend their first proposal and get people to switch votes. It's not like it would be a big waste of time to do that again.

Creating this sense of extreme immediate urgency is a technique certain type of individuals use to persuade people.

This book should be mandatory reading for everyone.
 
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AndyDark

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We have had a lot of interest in the Vender-Experience Budget Proposal. We appreciate the constructive questions. I have updated the proposal to add an FAQ to help everyone understand this proposal. For more details or to vote, here are the links and voting command.
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/Vendor-Experience
dash-cli mnbudget vote-many 1cfc2525f33d8dee81640f6860fc85751acea552724ec58d6619f7fcee694ea1 yes

We believe the best way to grow Dash is to give users a place to spend their Dash. Dash has an advantage over any other crypto with InstantX that can enable point of sale purchases without risk. We plan to utilize this advantage to show projects in the real world.

The initial project we implemented was the Dash N Drink soda machine. The key to making this project was to implement InstantX detection and trigger a machine credit. This has now opened the door for the next phase. The next projects we will work on will include more sophisticated interfaces that will take engineering and software to connect to properly. We will be updating mobile wallets so they work quickly and easily. We expect to deploy actual products in actual stores.

The core team members coordinating this project are Camosoul and Solarminer.

We view this proposal as a core requirement for Dash adoption, not something that is for a single merchant application or single product. If anyone would rather only support this proposal for 1 month/3 months just vote it down when you want. We plan to deliver and keep pushing the envelope of possibilities so there is no reason to think about ending this project.

The Plan
We plan to initially target easier devices and as we learn get to more complicated infrastructure projects. This is the plan as we have it now, but that could change based on vendor participation or types of products available. We expect to complete each of these projects in about 3 months.

Vending machine with multiple products that uses a custom interface.
Upgrade software for Raspberry PI or Odroid-XU4 as needed to make this all work.
Design software to communicate with serial interface or more complicated multiple item vending controller
Implement multiple product selection within the dash wallet along with a more stable interface.
Implement multiple product selection and inventory tracking with QR codes and addresses

Gas pumps
Design software and hardware to communicate with the pump controller
Implement a wifi captive portal checkout with one product.
Enable prepay with return change

Dash Sky Store Checkout
Design a wifi captive portal with multiple products.
Enable shopping cart functionality on phone or portal.
Implement the Dash Fast Lane - start wifi cart on entry and pay when you leave without a checkout line
Enable phone to store product scanning (skipping the need for registers)

We will be getting assistance from inside and outside the Dash space. Each application will win press releases and additional status as a leading crypto similar to how we won publicity with the Dash N Drink.

As for the questions about what happens to the products after we are done, we expect them to be in the hands of a merchant who will actually use them. This will bring ongoing publicity along with proof of concept for other merchants to adopt and a base for testing. The valuable part of all these projects is the software, publicity and to gain adoption. The software will be open source as much as possible. The intent is not to make a business to sell products but to show how products can be used in real world scenarios.

FAQs
Can we have some more information about the project, the vending machine and how you’re planning
on operating this?

The goal is to create the software and hardware to easily interface with a wide variety of products. We have outlined a multiple item vending machine to add software features as the initial product. The vending machine or future devices will be operated by a merchant similar to before our upgrades. The idea isn't to be in the vending business but to adopt a real product for Dash.

We don’t know what’s happening to the vending machine that was already made(Dash N Drink), who owns this vending machine and what’s the plan for it?
The Dash N Drink is being stored at Camosoul’s. Anyone is welcome to offer it a home. We still have some bugs in instantX detection to fix before it can be in an unattended location. Of course, the reason for building the Dash N Drink was to build a demo to test and use InstantX. It was a success at the Miami show, which was our primary goal.

What are you goingto be purchasing with the $3000?

A portion of the funds will go to the developers for coding enhancement to the software and wallets. There may also be a portion for outside support with gas pump controller software or point of sale devices. A large amount will go to modifying customer machines or buying hardware to interface with pumps/registers?

Can you give us an itemized breakdown?

We are looking at this as a development project. We don’t know what the breakdown of expenses will be. There will be some on-going costs like 4g internet and server space. Otherwise, we are putting the remaining funds into hardware and software.

Can you give us a plan on how you aim to use these funds each month?

The first few months will be sourcing a vending machine along with a merchant that wants to display it. We may also be able to find a merchant willing to let us convert their machine. We will begin to engineer a way to dispense each product with a specific QR code with coded price or with multiple QR codes. We will also work on an inventory system based on dash addresses. Some of these features are possible but we won’t know how effective they will be until we do them.

Would it be possible to come up with milestones for this project? What are you planning on accomplishing? How will it benefit the ecosystem?
Setting specific milestones is difficult to nail down aswe will need to work with several groups who are already working on projects. I would expect every 3 monthswe would finish a product and start work on a new product. The goal here is to find applications that are similar to a wide family of products. Then another merchant can easily adopt from what we started. The benefit is to answer this question,“Where can I spend Dash?” We believe that question is what gives Dash it’s value.

Are you planning on selling vending machines, components of them eventually, or something like this? Who will earn these rewards?

This is not planned to be a profitable undertaking. We are not planning to sell products. We expect the final result of any of our builds to be machines that are in use in the real world making money for the merchant. All code will be open sourced as much as possible to enable DASH-specific projects to flourish.

I would assume if the masternode network is funding your operation, it should receive a cut of the profits each quarter paid out as dividends. I would like to also establish some sort of agreement between yourselves and the Darkcoin foundation as well to make that agreement official
.
As for profits, we don’t expect any. If we do get to the point where there are no new projects to develop we will ask for the proposal to be voted down.

I’m curious what the answers are, as that will inform the decision of the masternode network. Funding is starting to get tight on the network so we definitely need to be careful that we’ll have great return on the network’s investment.
We understand that there a lot of other projects that are valuable. With the success of the Dash N Drink, we can’t help but think this is every bit as valuable as other projects.The key to success of any crypto project is real world adoption. This kind of development will stimulate that process.
Solarminer can you clarify what this means: "The software will be open source as much as possible"

In what circumstances would it not be possible to open source the software?

What I mean is, who owns the code, you or the Dash network, or what license will you release under?
 
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BrainShutdown

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This book should be mandatory reading for everyone.
:rolleyes:

"The secret to saying No without destroying relationships lies in the art of the Positive No" :D

Sorry but if a relationship is destroyed by a honest No then there was no relationship to begin with. And I see the Positive No more as a hypocritical No.
Good try though :)
 

camosoul

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Tact; the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.

Yes, I know what it is. No, I don't use it because I find deception and manipulation repugnant.
 

TanteStefana

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Solarminer can you clarify what this means: "The software will be open source as much as possible"

In what circumstances would it not be possible to open source the software?

What I mean is, who owns the code, you or the Dash network, or what license will you release under?
I know I'm not Solarminer, so I hope he'll answer, but I believe this means that if they integrate with proprietary software, they may not be able to open source that part. As an example, 7-11s may all use a proprietary software to keep their inventory and we want to integrate with it in some way. This partnership may preclude being open sourced. That's just an example off my head, not necessarily what will happen, but that's why they're saying "as much as possible" because even they have no idea what they'll create.

But obviously, if they had the opportunity to work alongside a huge franchise like 7-11 or McDonnalds, etc... It would be more than worth the effort :)
 
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camosoul

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I know I'm not Solarminer, so I hope he'll answer, but I believe this means that if they integrate with proprietary software, they may not be able to open source that part. As an example, 7-11s may all use a proprietary software to keep their inventory and we want to integrate with it in some way. This partnership may preclude being open sourced. That's just an example off my head, not necessarily what will happen, but that's why they're saying "as much as possible" because even they have no idea what they'll create.

But obviously, if they had the opportunity to work alongside a huge franchise like 7-11 or McDonnalds, etc... It would be more than worth the effort :)
The fact that this is even questioned demonstrates how detached from reality people are. If we stop to feed these details, we'll never get anything done...

It's bad enough to be obsessed with throwing stones at ever dog that barks. But when the people who are supposedly on the same team as you, keep throwing stones AND barking at the same time... It's a bit much. It's why we didn't put a ton of details in the first revision.

It's not an insult. But, if you're clueless, please realize that you're clueless. The whole point of this is to hire people who can handle and do what you don't understand and can't do. If you could understand and do this stuff, you wouldn't need someone else to do it for you, eh?

moocowmoo doesn't like me very much right now, but I still recognize that he's the first person I ever worked with that didn't need his hand held and to be micromanaged. It's fuckin' awesome to just stand back and let him do his thing! Work doesn't grind to a halt just because we disagree about something. Who needs me? I'll be on my boat! Awesome!

Can't you guys do the same?

This bizarre "not sure if we should breathe water or air" hangup has already monkey-wrenched a lot. Realize that a lot of eyeballs were watching this, and the moment they saw a management system that couldn't make such an obvious choice, many of them walked away. Why do you think I'm pissed off? You guys fucked yourselves and made me look lik a fool for putting faith in you at all. And now you want to kill the messenger?

It's salvage-able, but we could have hit the ground running... Now, we have months of cleanup before we can even get on with what could have been happening already... If my own team is going to fuck me like that, do I even care? Where's my boat...
 
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AndyDark

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Sorry to jump in but as I see it sometimes changes to proprietary code could be needed for the integration and those changes cannot be open sourced.
Sure, but it doesn't say that, it's open ended. If Evan said to me 'from now on with Dash we will only open source as much as possible' I would be asking the same question. It seems like a lot of people are in the 'warm fuzzy' period where they are not thinking clearly - i think there is great potential in this as
The fact that this is even questioned demonstrates how detached from reality people are. If we stop to feed these details, we'll never get anything done...

It's bad enough to be obsessed with throwing stones at ever dog that barks. But when the people who are supposedly on the same team as you, keep throwing stones AND barking at the same time... It's a bit much. It's why we didn't put a ton of details in the first revision.

It's not an insult. But, if you're clueless, please realize that you're clueless. The whole point of this is to hire people who can handle and do what you don't understand and can't do. If you could understand and do this stuff, you wouldn't need someone else to do it for you, eh?

moocowmoo doesn't like me very much right now, but I still recognize that he's the first person I ever worked with that didn't need his hand held and to be micromanaged. It's fuckin' awesome to just stand back and let him do his thing! Work doesn't grind to a halt just because we disagree about something. Who needs me? I'll be on my boat! Awesome!

Can't you guys do the same?

This bizarre "not sure if we should breathe water or air" hangup has already monkey-wrenched a lot. Realize that a lot of eyeballs were watching this, and the moment they saw a management system that couldn't make such an obvious choice, many of them walked away. Why do you think I'm pissed off? You guys fucked yourselves and made me look lik a fool for putting faith in you at all. And now you want to kill the messenger?

It's salvage-able, but we could have hit the ground running... Now, we have months of cleanup before we can even get on with what could have been happening already... If my own team is going to fuck me like that, do I even care? Where's my boat...
It's actually a real obvious question and anyone with basic experience in IP law would pick this open ended statement out and just ask for a simple clarification.

Not sure why you are firing ad-hominems because I asked it especially with all the support I have voiced to you yesterday too.

Hopefully Solarminer can answer
 

camosoul

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Hopefully Solarminer can answer
I've never applied for a job that expected me to work really hard and then quit without getting paid. Have fun with your cereal-box-top lawyers, since there's no contract here and no lawyer would ever advise a person to agree to such a deal in the first place...
 

AndyDark

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I've never applied for a job that expected me to work really hard and then quit without getting paid. Have fun with your cereal-box-top lawyers, since there's no contract here and no lawyer would ever advise a person to agree to such a deal in the first place...
It's just a simple question Camosoul. If Evan said from now "Dash will be open source as much as possible" I would ask him for a clarification too.
 

camosoul

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It's just a simple question Camosoul. If Evan said from now "Dash will be open source as much as possible" I would ask him for a clarification too.
Such a simple question that it answers itself if you just think about it for 20 seconds... I don't have a problem answering it, it's just that if I am answering it, I'm not doing useful things. I'm sitting here answering questions that easily answer themselves. Is that something you really want to pay for? Me to sit here constantly stroking your hair, comforting you with every question that a clueless person might manage to come up with? Or doing work, useful things? It's a moot point because I'm not doing that.
 
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AndyDark

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Such a simple question that it answers itself if you just think about it for 20 seconds... I don't have a problem answering it, it's just that if I am answering it, I'm not doing useful things. I'm sitting here answering questions that easily answer themselves. Is that something you really want to pay for? Me to sit here constantly stroking your hair, comforting you with every question that a clueless person might manage to come up with? Or doing work, useful things? It's a moot point because I'm not doing that.
But i'm not a clueless person Camosoul. I have a lot of experience with IP issues and I just asked a simple question. If the question answered itself, I wouldn't be asking it.
 

camosoul

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But i'm not a clueless person Camosoul. I have a lot of experience with IP issues and I just asked a simple question. If the question answered itself, I wouldn't be asking it.
There's a question that precludes it.

Why would I enter into such a contract that has no penalty clause for the other party simply giving me the finger at any time? What does your experience say about that?
 
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