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Budget Proposal - Vendor-Experience UPDATED

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by Solarminer, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Honestly, this is a non-issue, and as a core project, it is long term and should be thought of as the same as the proposal that pays our developers over many years. Not only that, but this corner foundation of Dash is likely to expand. Even so, I see all long term budgets being re-evaluated as need be.
     
  2. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    What do you mean by core project? I agree it's an important project but I don't like the format.

    Just because the idea is good doesn't mean the execution has to be neglected.
     
  3. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    I can see why you are untrusting. However, the Foundation can be used to sue them if they don't open-source their work. We would be paying for this, thus, the agreement is to open-source what they create, which benefits the entire Dash ecosystem.
     
  4. David

    David Well-known Member
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    I really don't see this being a profitable enterprise. In theory they could produce the machines and software and "close source" them and sell them at a profit, but that would require them to be fundamentally dishonest. I believe that they are both honest people and don't see them doing such a thing.

    TanteStefana I think it is very important to note that, at least at present, there are only two people on this project. The other eight year projects (Core Team and Public Awareness) have an entire team behind them. It would be difficult for two people to efficiently spend what could end up being a $70,000+ monthly budget.
     
  5. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Oh god, I don't want to re-write all that but I don't know where I wrote it, LOL... I have to take out the garbage, brb, sorry!
     
  6. David

    David Well-known Member
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    The proposers won't be signing a written contract with anybody, and even if they were inclined to, the counterparty would be the entire network itself (a DAC, which is not a legal entity at present). The Foundation would have no standing to sue.
     
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  7. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    OK, I'm back. My view is that this is the missing pillar of the Dash structure. You can't have a structure with 2 pillars. You need a minimum of 3, and to me, this seems to be obviously true for a virtual structure. So far, we have 2 core teams. Software Development and Marketing. There is an absolute need (read aigeezer's quote above) for Merchant support services. Without actively getting Merchants on board, nothing will happen. Although we're going to make Dash easier to use, especially online, with Evolution, Dash is MORE than ready for mass adoption.

    Camosoul has been advocating that we start work on this already more than 6 months ago. Nothing has been started. So he STARTED along with Solar, moocowmoo and oaxaca and others. That soda machine was only the beginning of their ideas. In my opinion, these guys have more than proven themselves capable with vision and ability, and shown that they are motivated for the RIGHT reasons.

    We are still a start up project. With startups like this, we need to GO FOR IT. I don't see anyone else filling this need. I know Evan wants to integrate small individual businesses to do things on top of Dash, but I agree with aigeezer, that we should NOT allow it to go as far as financial access to Dash. That should ALWAYS be direct, and if we do this and provide the full infrastructure and free access to merchants, then no big financial institution will ever get control over this part of the worlds money again. Not unless they provide completely different types of services that are ultimately user's choice.
     
  8. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    The proposition written out on DashWhale IS a contract. And they said their work will be open sourced as much as possible. The "as much as possible" can only mean that if they integrate with existing proprietary payment systems that merchants still need, that interface may require agreements to the proprietors of it, and that may not be open-sourced. But anything that can "as much as possible" therefore anything they make that belongs to their work, is required to be open-sourced. Perfectly binding.
     
    #38 TanteStefana, Jan 29, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2016
  9. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    It's not just the source code, they'd have to disclose all hardware details, publish all contacts, meetings, negotiations and contracts.

    They say it's not intended to be profitable... well that's true right now, but that's the end goal, right? I mean, we want this to work and for people to see the benefits and go "wow". We're not funding this to fail. In two years time, who's going to be in the ideal position to benefit from this? Who will have the contacts and experience to go it alone? So effectively they get free money to fail now and once it's profitable we have nothing to stop them keeping all the profits.

    That's why I think they should either agree a 40% stake to the Dash Foundation, or let them go it alone and keep all of the profits. They've already said they have the funds to do this themselves - what was it, "a six figure income"? - so how much faith that they come to us for funding?
     
  10. David

    David Well-known Member
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    Theoretically, but nobody has legal standing to sue.
     
  11. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    TanteStefana

    This might go bit offtopic but there is a flow in that logic.

    I don't believe we should encourage standard LTD businesses on top of DASH. These will become the infrastructure and it's very easy for say a big bank to take them over and control the ecosystem. It's what's happening in Bitcoin now. I think decentralized governance model should be encouraged, not the creation of small standard top down businesses.
     
  12. David

    David Well-known Member
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    I'll say again--the only way they would turn a profit on this is if they decided to become blatantly unethical. I don't believe they are. It's very easy to keep this from turning into a business--you sell your products at cost.
     
  13. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    So let me get this straight. Your argument is that Masternode owners are lazy and stupid. Is that the crux of your argument? You certainly do not speak for me or for the masternode owners who take their responsibilities seriously.

     
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  14. David

    David Well-known Member
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    My argument is based on human nature and well-documented cognitive biases.
     
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  15. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    To sue them, the Dash Foundation would represent the Dash community. This is also why they can't say exactly what they will produce and give a time table. This is still the equivalent of an entrepreneurial project. It's in full flux, they need to try things. It's all a grand experiment. No different from Evan's section in software development. The marketing section is the closest thing to a "normal" operating section of the Virtual Corporation.

    In the same way, we, as a community could also sue Evan if we felt he misappropriated funds. It would be hard, but we could do it. And there is NO SIGN that anyone has been anything but up and up in this project. We have some really great well rounded people here. Not just programming nerds, we have Evan who also understand economics, Camo understands Merchants (he is one) and business, etc.... We're not crypto nerds without world experience.

    And all 3 core pillars are UNDERFUNDED so are being worked on due to passion and personal desire.

    Lets fund this project. With Merchant Adoption, DASH has a USE. The dream will be REAL, but not without this third pillar.
     
  16. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    For the general population, yes. For Masternode ownership, God I hope not. Are you counting yourself in the "I just vote and don't care what happens" camp?
     
  17. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    The essence of this is very simple, we're not funding this to ultimately fail, we want this to be a success.

    Now, if they agreed to give up a 40% stake in any future profits, then I'm in.
     
  18. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Have you heard of the concept of enlightened self interest?
     
  19. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    They're never going to have any profits, they're working for Dash! Maybe, just maybe in a few years, just like with the development team, they'll actually earn a salary, but that's a long way off. They'll likely be spending every cent on building things, destroying things and rebuilding. If they want to leave, they can leave, take what they learned and do something with it, but their work will be open sourced, and anyone else can do the same with what they came up with.
     
  20. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
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  21. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Yep, all that at our expense.

    We could just put them on the core team payroll and then increase the overall core team budget. We'd still require full disclosure regarding contacts etc.
     
  22. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Feel free to submit a proposal to put 3 guys (plus assorted subcontractors) onto the Core team. I dare you.
     
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  23. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    That's what the proposal proposes to do! But the Development budget is different, if you mix them up, it'll be just like the "general fund" that the government rapes from the schools that the taxes were supposed to go toward. No, the budget should be separate, but we as MN owners and all 3 core development teams plus the Foundation can keep an eye out on them / eachother.

    This Merchant integration team should of course show where the money was spent, just like the core developers do. But we should not require them to tell us ahead of time, not at this point in time, how it will be spent because they just don't know and can't commit to anything. They need to experiment and the freedom to drop things and try other things.

    I'm sorry, I need to go :(
     
  24. David

    David Well-known Member
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    Once again things are getting heated/emotional. I've said my piece and I'm going to mosey on out of here. Cheers.
     
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  25. BrainShutdown

    BrainShutdown Well-known Member
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    It's quite funny how people get attached to money that isn't theirs, even if that money is going to be spent in ways that will increase their own networth... unbelievable...
    Not to mention that they maintain full control and can cut funding (not their money) at any time!
     
  26. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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  27. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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  28. noobtrader

    noobtrader Active Member

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    excellent, I will vote yes for one month, and if dont like with how they spent the fund i will change votes.
     
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  29. crowning

    crowning Well-known Member

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    Vote with what YOU think is right.
     
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  30. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    Not really, that's not at all what he said.

    Tante was referring to something else, the claim that the money will be used in their own interest which was a different claim someone else made.