Blockchain: Money conference in London (6-7 NOV 2016)

TroyDASH

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Some of us argue that there are many other ways to spend such a big money more effectively. I am sure there are and I am willing to agree with it (and would like to vote for more effective alternatives) - but we still do not see any evidence (alternatives - more efficient, attractive and credible budget proposals submitted by reliable Dash community members), only words.

This is a self-balancing system: even when not the best deals are winning - it becomes a huge motivating force for the emergence of alternatives and more effective proposals. I am talking about not this particular London event, but Dash voting system in general.
You're saying if there's nothing better to spend on, we should spend big on wasteful proposals because dangling the cash in front of them will motivate others?
 

alex-ru

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You're saying if there's nothing better to spend on, we should spend big on wasteful proposals because dangling the cash in front of them will motivate others?
Yes, I haven't said "wasteful" (there are only MN OPs who can decide what is "wasteful", "good enough", "..."), but this is exactly how current system works:

If money are spending on "not perfect" (but "good enough") projects - and there are ("theoretically") some "better possibilities" exists - it is good motivation for those "theoretically better possibilities" to become real - to submit these "better solutions" as proposals and win Dash budget.

It is more proactive and useful way than just criticism - there are no use (no benefit for the network) of such "theoretical criticism". Know the "better" way? - just do it! ;)
 
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camosoul

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Some of us argue that there are many other ways to spend such a big money more effectively. I am sure there are and I am willing to agree with it (and would like to vote for more effective alternatives) - but we still do not see any evidence (alternatives - more efficient, attractive and credible budget proposals submitted by reliable Dash community members), only words.

This is a self-balancing system: even when not the best deals are winning - it becomes a huge motivating force for the emergence of alternatives and more effective proposals. I am talking about not this particular London event, but Dash voting system in general.
This formula neglects to consider a spoiled brat's ability to remain a spoiled brat.
TroyDASH said:
You're saying if there's nothing better to spend on, we should spend big on wasteful proposals because dangling the cash in front of them will motivate others?
Find/create a vacuum, then do anything you can do stop it from being filled.

IS/IX is the perfect example. It's the killer app of fixing crypto.

What's been done with it?

What's been done to anyone who is willing?

DASH has become a bunch of effeminate nerds playing dress up and calling names. Even if the bad, silly proposals appear to make room for better ones, nobody, including myself, wants to get involved with this anymore.

All I do now is stoke the fire, hoping it'll get hot enough to make someone get off their ass. But, of course, echo chamber preservation is more important. The guy who refuses to stop pointing out the uncomfortable truths will only get ignored so that the echo chamber remains intact.

The community has made it abundantly clear that it does not want to pursue the obvious path even if it's free! The MNOs accept the FUD from the King and hand it out to the community at large as if it were fact. As long as there is praise and worship, they think they're winning.

Winning a popularity contest inside an echo chamber that desperately needs to isolate itself in order to remain oblivious and out of touch with reality... Yeah, way to go... This is Charlie Sheen's version of winning.

I'd be a damned fool to submit a proposal with all the work that's been done behind the scenes to make sure DASH cannot be used in the real world, by the very people who run the project. Why? Why would I waste my time on a project and community that are absolutely dead set on self-destruction?

This is why the proposals keep getting sillier and sillier. Why not throw some more crap out there and pork the dough? Only losers with nothing left to lose care about your budget anymore. These people are complete fuckups and as their track record in life has proved, they're going nowhere, and they're taking DASH with them.

It's just like claiming that Electing Obama was "winning." The country is a wreck. Not because Obama got elected, but because there are so many absolute fucking retards in it. Obama is just a symbol of how retarded the country has become.

The same goes for DASH. The proposals being made and approved are just a symbol of how dumb the rest of the community is. DASH is an absolute wreck. Sure, the technical development is there, but the business function... Ugh, nuke it from orbit, just to be sure. Dealing with the stigma of crypto in general that DASH has inherited is bad enough, but repeatedly doubling-down on it... Fuck it. Why bother? You want to sink the ship this bad, do it.

The budget system was designed to be incentiveless for exactly this purpose. "May as well spend it cuz it's going to get burned." I pointed out this problem before the budget system was invented, and outlined a much better way that would create at least a minor system of weighing value. But, this defective system was implemented specifically because of this flaw. It was intended to be abuse by the king and his pals from the beginning because an easier, simpler, more appropriate option existed, and was deliberately not used.

The budget spending needs to come out of block rewards per-block, just like mining. And if no suitable project exists, the duffs stay in the blockchain. All the socialists cried that the greedy rich masternodes would simply downvote every proposal. Which is absolutely silly. MNs want to increase their value. The is no rational, fact-based argument against proportional payout. Some raise the "but the supply fluctuates" argument. So what? Look at DOGE. No diff at all. Created as a joke! Yet it remains viable, and the wild inflationary aspect actually encourages trading/spending because if you sit still you lose. There's a lesson to learn everywhere, and DASH is failing to learn them.

But, what we have now, is a system where there is no weighing of value. "Is this proposal going to increase our value more than if we do nothing?"

Noe, the only feedback that exists is whether or not a proposal makes DASH look stupid. And that feedback is easily ignored by simply clicking the ignore button on anyone "mean" or "negative" person who dares to point it out. You label the feedback as "trolling" and remove it. So now you have the open system of throwing away money on dumb crap, which is exactly what they wanted you to do... Piggy bank for the king and his buddies.

Even if this was not an insidious ply by Evan and his pals, and it's just a bunch of coincidences; you've still got exactly that!

I'm pretty sure Satoshi never meant for Bitcoin and all it's clones to be a useless ponzi scam. But, due to a lack of features, that's exactly what they are! DASH has what it takes to make good on Satoshi's intent, where Bitclones have all failed. But, it's going nowhere due to a failing of exactly the same sort. Lack of appropriate feature set. The votes don't really do anything feedback is being ignored, so IX/IS is still being ignored... Systemic failure.

Does the timid man get laid? Or the manly one? Appeasing the raging socialist nancies has accomplished what? DASH is just getting used by manipulative whores. "Give us more money or we won't love you anymore! Give us more money or we won't hang around making you feel good, sucking up your cash!" Are you really so desperate and pathetic that you can't say no? Or are you such a crotch-centric loser that you don't even realize what's going on? Damn son, figure it out! No matter how much you spend, she's still going to stab you in the back and humping a guy like me every time you're not looking!

Bitches ain't shit but hos and tricks! Stop giving them your money!
 
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kot

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Hey Guys, Thank you for your comments.

I understand that price may trigger questions and concerns - I consider this event expensive as well.
There is no obligation for Dash to be there - it is an option proposed by the organizer and we could use it or not. The network should simply consider pros and cons, calculate potential benefits vs. cost and make a business decision.

Personally for me and Holger participation in the conference would mean two days of hard work on the field + weeks spent on preparations. Please don't feel like it is a weekend of vacation sponsored by the network - anyone who participated a similar event as a presenter and exhibitor knows what am I talking about.

Let me try to address questions and concerns:
1. First of all, this is a conference to present Dash to big business - both crypto and fintech industry. This is not a work on the grassroots level - other types of events are dedicated for grassroots work (e.g. what I was doing in Warsaw few weeks ago). We enjoy spreading the knowledge about Dash to everyone - big conferences and small meetups are good promotion of Dash. They simply require different approach, different cost and have different results. The main difference is in scale - one institutional/corporate Client means thousands or millions of users.

2. To me there is no doubt that it is beneficial to be present and visible on such conference. This would be a good promotion of Dash both in crypto and financial industry. If we won't go outside, no one from serious industry players will hear about Dash. Here we all know what Dash is, but very little people outside our community have the same knowledge and understanding about the project and superior Dash features. Even majority of Bitcoiners know very little (to nothing) about Dash - fintech industry knows nothing at all. This is one of very few opportunities to give them this knowledge.

3. Please check a list of speakers: https://conference.bitcoin.com/speakers/ - these are not accidental people from the street. We would not be able to simply meet them on the forum/Twitter/Slack or in cafeteria and attract with Dash. Those are serious business people and if we would have a chance to talk to them face to face and convince to integrate Dash, profit would be much bigger than investment. Even if it would be only one company.

4. Prices for tickets: https://conference.bitcoin.com/tickets/ - this will be affordable only for institutional clients or serious investors. I think both of these groups are our targets (among the others).

5. Premiere sponsorship package gives us an opportunity to place large banners throughout the building, on the stage & podium, the program, website and all media. This means that Dash logo will be visible everywhere on the conference and also in the materials distributed and published after the conference. Speaking slot as a part of the package is an additional opportunity to present Dash.

6. Contacts made on the other conferences in the past resulted in partnerships and integrations we are currently working on. This is the biggest value I would like to bring from the conference - new partners and companies working with us.

7. Last but not least - we were not really visible on big events in Europe so far. Dash was presented to the bigger audience in Americas but we didn't do the same in Europe. London is a perfect place to be from this perspective - this is the heart of finance industry together with Wall Street.

I strongly encourage you to vote (either YES or NO), so we have a clear understanding whether we go there or not. There is not too much time left for preparations :).
Thank you for your votes.
 
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itscrazybro

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This is a no brainer in my opinion. Have you guys that are opposed to this, looked at who is in attendance? Here is the list of attendees https://conference.bitcoin.com/speakers/.

It is important to note that this conference should not be compared to any grass roots type of meet up. They are completely different. The objective of a conference like this, is to establish relationships with potential partners and as an added bonus potentially pick up some new users. The purpose of attending a grass roots meet up is to only pick up new users. The two are not comparable.

New users may not come swarming in directly because of this conference but if we establish one new partnership because of this conference, then the new users will be swarming in at a latter date. Partnerships are so valuable because they bring in a constant stream of new users rather than just a few here and there.

You have my vote @kot
 

GrandMasterDash

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This is a no brainer in my opinion. Have you guys that are opposed to this, looked at who is in attendance? Here is the list of attendees https://conference.bitcoin.com/speakers/.

It is important to note that this conference should not be compared to any grass roots type of meet up. They are completely different. The objective of a conference like this, is to establish relationships with potential partners and as an added bonus potentially pick up some new users. The purpose of attending a grass roots meet up is to only pick up new users. The two are not comparable.

New users may not come swarming in directly because of this conference but if we establish one new partnership because of this conference, then the new users will be swarming in at a latter date. Partnerships are so valuable because they bring in a constant stream of new users rather than just a few here and there.

You have my vote @kot
You're assuming that dash is ready for such thing.. it's not. We don't have Evolution or other comparable milestone, only promises and missed deadlines. If dash was further along, I would vote yes, but it's not.

Additionally, if this is so important, why is Evan giving priority to laBITconf instead? I mean, something this important would warrant his attendance, right?
 

kot

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@GrandMasterDash
It is much better to have Evolution launched together with merchants already integrated into the ecosystem - this will show it's real value from the day one. Despite the fact that we don't have it yet (full version of Evo), we are already integrating companies with the Evo-based architecture - Jaxx uses this (and as you can see, it works well), ProtonMail will be integrated on the same platform and we are working on other integrations too. So when Evolution is released, we are not starting with an empty box but with running ecosystem (already tested on real scenarios) - this makes a big difference.

About Evan (not) being in London - laBITconf was confirmed long time ago and invite to London came recently - Evan could not be everywhere at the same time (unfortunately ;) ).
I think there is no reason to not go to the conference because Evan can't be there - we have a big team and we should use our resources as much as possible. I can hardly see any advantage of not being present on this conference.
This is not a devcon but the conference for fintech companies - I would rather not try to go to conference for developers (despite my technical background), however I feel pretty comfortable talking about Dash with people from the finance industry - I spent few years working for finance sector as an external consultant and then as a Programme Manager in one of the biggest international banks (btw - they will be there too). My job was to offer, deliver and maintain IT services for business - this is exactly what we want to do in London.

I can see that Perry also sent a proposal for another event in Raleigh. We would have Dash being presented on events in both Americas and in Europe almost at the same time - wouldn't it be great? We would only miss Asia and Australia to cover all continents ;)
 
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GrandMasterDash

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It is much better to have Evolution launched together with merchants already integrated into the ecosystem - this will show it's real value from the day one. Despite the fact that we don't have it yet, we are already integrating companies with the Evo-based architecture - Jaxx uses this, ProtonMail will be integrated on the same platform and we are working on other integrations too. So when Evolution is released, we are not starting with an empty box but with running ecosystem (already tested on real scenarios) - this makes a big difference.

About Evan (not) being in London - laBITconf was confirmed long time ago and invite to London came recently - Evan could not be everywhere at the same time (unfortunately ;) ).
I think there is no reason to not go to the conference because Evan can't be there - we have a big team and we should use our resources as much as possible. I can hardly see any advantage of not being present on this conference.
This is not a devcon but the conference for fintech companies - I would rather not try to go to conference for developers (despite my technical background), however I feel pretty comfortable talking about Dash with people from the finance industry - I spent few years working for finance sector as an external consultant and then as a Programme Manager in one of the biggest international banks (btw - they will be there too). My job was to offer, deliver and maintain IT services for business - this is exactly what we want to do in London.

I can see that Perry also sent a proposal for another event in Raleigh. We would have Dash being presented on events in both Americas and in Europe almost at the same time - wouldn't it be great? We would only miss Asia and Australia to cover all continents ;)
That's fare enough and I am not totally against this, but I think your case highlights that such conference is a little premature (not yet integrated / launched) and notwithstanding prior arrangement, that this event is not worthy of dash's lead innovator to attend.

Why not swap places with Evan and make our apologies to laBITconf. I tell you what, I'll compromise and vote yes if you we get Evan to this event. I suspect others might also change their vote if this was so.
 

kot

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Why don't have Dash on both conferences if we can?
 
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fernando

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That's fare enough and I am not totally against this, but I think your case highlights that such conference is a little premature (not yet integrated / launched) and notwithstanding prior arrangement, that this event is not worthy of dash's lead innovator to attend.

Why not swap places with Evan and make our apologies to laBITconf. I tell you what, I'll compromise and vote yes if you we get Evan to this event. I suspect others might also change their vote if this was so.
Evan is great and we are all talking here because of him. But the project needs to outgrow him. He can't be the one who thinks, codes and presents if we want to go somewhere. There are more people around the project that can do things and this conference is a great opportunity to show that.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Evan is great and we are all talking here because of him. But the project needs to outgrow him. He can't be the one who thinks, codes and presents if we want to go somewhere. There are more people around the project that can do things and this conference is a great opportunity to show that.
lol, you want us to vote for this to prove we've outgrow him! How about a project where he can no longer find the time to code... that's called "outgrowing".

We have this duplicity going where we should liken this project to Apple / Jobs yet Jobs won't rub shoulder to shoulder with the "important people" because he's too busy doing something smaller / coding.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Can anyone imagine Vitalik Buterin not turning up to devcon2 because the project had "outgrown him". Shoulder to shoulder with Santander.... no wait, dash was meant to be the "digital cash", not Ethereum.

The justifications for Evan not going are ridiculous. I'm not saying he should go alone, he needs support. When considering the cost of this proposal and the so called "importance", it seems to me we should be maximising our assets accordingly.
 

fernando

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lol, you want us to vote for this to prove we've outgrow him! How about a project where he can no longer find the time to code... that's called "outgrowing".

We have this duplicity going where we should liken this project to Apple / Jobs yet Jobs won't rub shoulder to shoulder with the "important people" because he's too busy doing something smaller / coding.
I haven't said you should vote this to prove that. I have said that if we depend on him for everything, we are doomed. Besides that, he is not necessarily the best for every task.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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I haven't said you should vote this to prove that. I have said that if we depend on him for everything, we are doomed. Besides that, he is not necessarily the best for every task.
Well look, how about if someone actually ask him if he'd like to go?
 

fernando

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Well look, how about if someone actually ask him if he'd like to go?
We have talked about this in team meetings in which he is also present. We discuss all speaking opportunities and decide what we believe is the best course of action. You may agree or not (it looks like you don't!), but he had already decided to go to Buenes Aires when this opportunity appeared and he preferred to stay on plan.
 

GrandMasterDash

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We have talked about this in team meetings in which he is also present. We discuss all speaking opportunities and decide what we believe is the best course of action. You may agree or not (it looks like you don't!), but he had already decided to go to Buenes Aires when this opportunity appeared and he preferred to stay on plan.
Evan's obviously taking less of a leadership role and I can't argue with that. He's also reduced his MN count, and that too I can't argue with.

I'll still vote no but equally wish you guys good luck if it passes.
 

fernando

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Evan's obviously taking less of a leadership role and I can't argue with that. He's also reduced his MN count, and that too I can't argue with.

I'll still vote no but equally wish you guys good luck if it passes.
I don't know that he's reduced his MN count, but I have never known how many he had, so I can't say :). Anyway, even if that were true, I would not read much into that. He's been years without a salary and my guess is that he has expenses, so it would be normal that he sold some to maintain himself.
 

tungfa

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yes scraped
did not get voted in
 

demo

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Yes, the budget request wasn't approved by the network :(
Yes, the budget request wasn't approved by the network:)
 

Icebucket

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Yes, the budget request wasn't approved by the network :(
That is a shame, maybe dont go for the premiere exhibitor package next time and keep expenses to minimum.

People are hyper sensitive to these expenses that are listed involving conferences, Maybe the solution for that is to have a 3 party planing the trips instead of the attendees them self's making reservations.

It has to be as cheep (while being nice) as possible.

Also I think that posting on a forum is not going to reach all MN ovners, maybe call up Amanda and make a show about your case for doing this conference.
more chance of making your case heard.

Well better luck next time eh..
 
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