Amanda B. Johnson on Bitcoin Uncensored – A Rebuttal - Dash Nation
- Thread starter TaoOfSatoshi
- Start date
camosoul
Well-known member
Nice... This is how to call out the liars. Let them run amok, then counter outside of their controlled venue.
Make it into a video rebuttal and SAVAGELY CALL THEM OUT.
@amanda_b_johnson is a sweetie who has gone from misinformed budget troll to truly understanding DASH and being a bit of a fangirl because, how can you not when you understand what DASH is?
This rebuttal publication in text form needs to become a video. I'd like to see @amanda_b_johnson 's claws come out and rip these misinformation promoters a new one. Especially considering the dirty tactics they used to ambush and then just hammer lies into a microphone.
Most of this plays back to the fact that your typical cryptotard doesn't understand how 1st generation cryptocurrencies work in the first place. These guys are dancing between the few things they do understand, and the hope that their viewers won't understand that they're bullshitting.
A nice person, not me, would look at the part that they don't understand and try to educate them. But, the more important aspect is that they absolutely are not afraid to attempt to bullshit other people that know even less than they do. People like this, who willingly and knowingly spread misinformation, do not deserve to be treated nicely. They need a vicious and public flogging.
I'm chomping at the bit to make a video of it myself, but I don't want to step in and play defense for people already involved who are perfectly capable of doing so themselves. But, will they do it?
One of the underlying misconceptions I see being re-inforced here, is that cost of electricity is what sets the price. It's not. We see them making that move in the "energy burnt" commentary, and everything they refer to, including IX locks not needing to burn juice... Those of us who were there for Bitcoin's inception understand that demand is what sets it's value, not the cost of running your ASICs. SHA256DR ASICs didn't exist 8 years ago, so how could the cost of running them be what gives it value? It's a weird amalgam of not knowing that Cryptocurrency is Commodity money, not Fiat money, combined with blindly pushing an agenda...
These guys are barely knowledgeable 2nd generation cryptotards that need to be called out.
Make it into a video rebuttal and SAVAGELY CALL THEM OUT.
@amanda_b_johnson is a sweetie who has gone from misinformed budget troll to truly understanding DASH and being a bit of a fangirl because, how can you not when you understand what DASH is?
This rebuttal publication in text form needs to become a video. I'd like to see @amanda_b_johnson 's claws come out and rip these misinformation promoters a new one. Especially considering the dirty tactics they used to ambush and then just hammer lies into a microphone.
Most of this plays back to the fact that your typical cryptotard doesn't understand how 1st generation cryptocurrencies work in the first place. These guys are dancing between the few things they do understand, and the hope that their viewers won't understand that they're bullshitting.
A nice person, not me, would look at the part that they don't understand and try to educate them. But, the more important aspect is that they absolutely are not afraid to attempt to bullshit other people that know even less than they do. People like this, who willingly and knowingly spread misinformation, do not deserve to be treated nicely. They need a vicious and public flogging.
I'm chomping at the bit to make a video of it myself, but I don't want to step in and play defense for people already involved who are perfectly capable of doing so themselves. But, will they do it?
One of the underlying misconceptions I see being re-inforced here, is that cost of electricity is what sets the price. It's not. We see them making that move in the "energy burnt" commentary, and everything they refer to, including IX locks not needing to burn juice... Those of us who were there for Bitcoin's inception understand that demand is what sets it's value, not the cost of running your ASICs. SHA256DR ASICs didn't exist 8 years ago, so how could the cost of running them be what gives it value? It's a weird amalgam of not knowing that Cryptocurrency is Commodity money, not Fiat money, combined with blindly pushing an agenda...
These guys are barely knowledgeable 2nd generation cryptotards that need to be called out.
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TaoOfSatoshi
Well-known member
Make the video, Camo! I would host it on Dash Nation if we don't want it official...
camosoul
Well-known member
If I do as @TaoOfSatoshi suggests, I'll basically be saying the same things you did in your article. There is only one truth. I don't mean to plagiarize, but you said what I would say... Reference to your article?
camosoul
Well-known member
Oh, I know you won't want it official. I will never conform to the childish Nancy crap that would be necessary to be considered official. Too much reality in me for that.
TaoOfSatoshi
Well-known member
I'll ask Macro on Slack.
camosoul
Well-known member
Man, the more I listened and re-listened, the more I realize...
This video is already an hour long if I do nothing but play back their bulshit. It's packed with one glib one-liner of bullshit after another. I would have to add at least 4 hours of content on top of the 1 hour that's already there to thoroughly debunk and explain it all. These guys are artists of deception and falsehood... They're almost as good as anti-gun politicians. It's a good thing I have so much experience in dealing with this... But how the hell am I going to condense it to a degree that anyone will pay attention to? A 5 hour video? Really?
This video is already an hour long if I do nothing but play back their bulshit. It's packed with one glib one-liner of bullshit after another. I would have to add at least 4 hours of content on top of the 1 hour that's already there to thoroughly debunk and explain it all. These guys are artists of deception and falsehood... They're almost as good as anti-gun politicians. It's a good thing I have so much experience in dealing with this... But how the hell am I going to condense it to a degree that anyone will pay attention to? A 5 hour video? Really?
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ja crazy
honestly i would not go overboard there - no idea how to edit that down from 5 hours as well
i think we made our point well with the article written and i would not give them more attention with a whole video about this
point is made
camosoul
Well-known member
It may make mores sense to simply write them off as idiot trolls. I ain't got time for this crap... Lets see if they censor off the links to the article on their soundcloud comments. Go hammer the comments with links guys!
It's true, the point is made, but is that point reaching people? That would not be in question if Amanda made her own rebuttal video. They cannot take her own venue away from her, as they tried to steal her own voice from her in that ambush hit piece. I guess that's what's got me wound up. Abusing someone like that pisses me the fuck off. I like to hurt predatory degenerates. I want to feel bones cracking... Barbarism. Disfigurement. Pandemonium...
I'd be happy to do an interview with them myself, on the condition that I get to take them out behind the woodshed first. Clearly, their mommas failed to raise them right, so someone needs to beat some respectability into them. If they're still capable of forming words and cogent thoughts after that, then I'll answer any questions they still have.
Make lemonade out of lemons... Their idiot questions are still useful as many idiots and trolls ask those questions. Perhaps just lift them as generic questions and make that part of an FAQ? "Don't quote the trolls" is silly. They deserve a special place of humiliation forever emblazoned in an FAQ. Taht way anyone who hears it and is a noob, has a reference for handling the common troll commentary, not just valid questions. Give them air time. Go ahead and mention XMR. It only serves to expose that they're a bunch of clowns. Lay it bare. Shine the light of day on their bullshit. Let the only way they can escape the exposure be to censor themselves. Shine the glaring light of truth and watch the cockroaches scurry.
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camosoul
Well-known member
Quasi-correction: "miners pay electricity bills in fiat."
Yes?
My electric company was my USD/DASH exchange back when I still mined.
I know a few people who mine DASH. NONE of them cash out. Not a broad cross section, but you should at least qualify the statement to say that some miners cash out, because most people smart enoujgh to mine DASH, do so because they know how wildly undervalued it is, and that it's just plain stupid to sell it off.
Kinda reminds me of Mr. used-to-hold-a-lot-of-dash but now has a soundcloud shock-jock radio show where he trolls desperately hard and picks on girls because he's sad about bagholding the wrong bags...
Should I start a budget proposal to have camosoul beat the crap out of these trashy douchebags?
Yes?
My electric company was my USD/DASH exchange back when I still mined.
I know a few people who mine DASH. NONE of them cash out. Not a broad cross section, but you should at least qualify the statement to say that some miners cash out, because most people smart enoujgh to mine DASH, do so because they know how wildly undervalued it is, and that it's just plain stupid to sell it off.
Kinda reminds me of Mr. used-to-hold-a-lot-of-dash but now has a soundcloud shock-jock radio show where he trolls desperately hard and picks on girls because he's sad about bagholding the wrong bags...
Should I start a budget proposal to have camosoul beat the crap out of these trashy douchebags?
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Very good article Guys!
Thank you for all the effort you have made to gather and publish these information. Great teamwork!
PS. @camosoul - I would love to see your video. Seriously - I admire your knowledge and expertise. Just try to be less... hmm radical, so more people could see the real value of what you say.
Thank you for all the effort you have made to gather and publish these information. Great teamwork!
PS. @camosoul - I would love to see your video. Seriously - I admire your knowledge and expertise. Just try to be less... hmm radical, so more people could see the real value of what you say.
mastermined
Well-known member
“How do they prevent sybil attacks?”
Amanda answered that question very well. The 1,000 Dash collateral per Masternode makes it financially impossible to establish enough nodes to effectively sybil attack the network.
so i have a question about this. i was trying to explain the difference between nodes to someone but i think i got it wrong or i'm confused as to what's going on under the hood.
so to sybil btc one would need to set up a bunch of btc full nodes and to set up a btc full node don't you just need to sync a btc wallet? why then could i not sybil dash by doing the same and just setting up a bunch of cheap dash full nodes/wallets the same way?
what is the difference between a "full node" and "all nodes" and "active nodes" like is shown in this chart....
https://bitinfocharts.com/
it says btc has 26582 "all nodes" and 5781 "active nodes". dash has 5985 "all nodes" and 4222 "active nodes". what is the difference?
isn't a masternode a full node/active node as shown on the chart? what are the "all nodes"? spv?
where am i going wrong?
Amanda answered that question very well. The 1,000 Dash collateral per Masternode makes it financially impossible to establish enough nodes to effectively sybil attack the network.
so i have a question about this. i was trying to explain the difference between nodes to someone but i think i got it wrong or i'm confused as to what's going on under the hood.
so to sybil btc one would need to set up a bunch of btc full nodes and to set up a btc full node don't you just need to sync a btc wallet? why then could i not sybil dash by doing the same and just setting up a bunch of cheap dash full nodes/wallets the same way?
what is the difference between a "full node" and "all nodes" and "active nodes" like is shown in this chart....
https://bitinfocharts.com/
it says btc has 26582 "all nodes" and 5781 "active nodes". dash has 5985 "all nodes" and 4222 "active nodes". what is the difference?
isn't a masternode a full node/active node as shown on the chart? what are the "all nodes"? spv?
where am i going wrong?
demo
Well-known member
5985 dash nodes are all dash nodes, including both MNO and the dash wallets. Some dash wallets are offline, thats why only 4222 dash nodes are active. On the other hand it is very sad that the IP addresses of the dash wallets are visible somehow. If IPs are exposed, then where is the so called dash's anonymity then?
I dont think so. A big company like amazon or microsoft or oracle, or a state (even a small one) can easily conquer dash. Of course there are solutions to that problem. But honeslty, do you think that your core team is capable to implement such a solution? Or do you think that MNOs are smart enough to understand what is the link I provided above (or what is this link) and vote for a project that prevents dash to be conquered? Initially there is always the stupid solution against sybil attacks, and this is to turn MNOs collateral to 1000000000000 dash. But there are also other smart solutions (like the links I provided above), and with that solutions you can turn MNOs collateral to 1 dash per masternode, without the fear of sybil attacks.
You pay a lot of dash for advertising, for videos, for managers and for T-shirts. But when I am technical advising you, which is invaluable, not only you dont pay me, but also you are accusing me of trolling. Please also note that the journalists above, in order to confuse amanda, they pointed to the sybil attack problem but not to the solution (like I just did). The information I just gave you is invaluable, and very few people are aware of it. But you still have bad faith in me, and you still accusing me of trolling (mainly because of your ignorance in technical issues).
For a smart solution to be implemented, you need a smart core team to code it, and a smart community of MNO able to distinguish between useless, troll and smart, and vote for the good thing. Dash has done a few steps towards the correct road, but there is still a long way to walk....
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mastermined
Well-known member
somewhat helpful but not totally. how can they tell wallets/nodes are offline? if it is offline how can it count as a node? are you suggesting that in the whole 2+ year history of dash that only a total of 5985 have every been online? so if a node or wallet from a unique ip every came on line in the history of dash it is included in the 5985 node count?
is a masternode the same as a btc full node? what is the difference between a dash full node (wallet client) and a dash masternode when it comes to sybil attacks? i thought masternodes were supposed to prevent sybil attack or make them very expensive but if i can just run a bunch of dash wallet full nodes without the 1000 dash collateral can't i sybil dash just like btc. something is not making sense to me.
demo
Well-known member
I assume there are wallets, simply because they are not masternodes. The number of masternodes is known. Currently there are 3961 masternodes. So the rest 4222-3961=261 active nodes should be dash wallets, because what else can they be? The sad thing is that whatever those 261 are we certainly know their IPs , dont we? So anonymity is gone, isnt it?
You cannot sybil attack dash network if you run a bunch of dash wallets, even if they are full active nodes. The Masternodes are supposed to recognize eachother with their digital credentials. So no one is supposed to be able to interfere into the masternodes network.
But to be sure on that, someone has to check the code for it, someone has to point to the numbered lines of code where those credential are checked. And someone must be able to read that code, and discover if it does what it claims. But in your budget you dont vote for testers to be paid in order to test the work of the core development team, do you? You just vote to pay for management, for videos, for advertising and for T-shirts. So you get what you pay.
Dash has done a few steps towards the correct road, but there is still a long way to walk....
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mastermined
Well-known member
ok thanks, that better but i'm still not totally clear. if you can sybil btc by running a bunch of non collateralized full nodes why can't you do the same with dash? i guess there is something in the code that prevents it and only allows masternodes to serve the blockchain.
and i still don't understand what the "all nodes" are in btc and dash. it seems if you sync a full node wallet it would be a "active node" and if you turn it off/ close the wallet the node would just go offline and not be counted. but i know from running masternodes that there are usually a few that can be seen but are inactive so i guess i just don't understand how it all works. what are the 26582 btc "all nodes" doing? are they synced wallets or just open wallets that are somehow not synced? spv?
some testing and peer review has been done already. from what i understand pen testing is not cheap and would make no sense right now as the code is actively and massively evolving (no pun intended)
. once evolution is out i'm sure there will be budget proposals for new testing and security reviews just like in the past.from time to time someone will claim to have found a zero day exploit or something but nothing ever comes of it. in the past evan has said he would pay a bounty if someone found something and tells him so he can fix it. we are based off the btc codebase so it's pretty secure already it's not like new untested ether or monero/cryptonote code. plus there is at least one hacker who actively tries to hack the masternodes system and everything else they can but we have not had them give us any problems for a long time.
camosoul
Well-known member
@demo, we accuse you of trolling because you don't know what you think you know, declare yourself the ultimate expert, and do actually spend quite a but of time flat-out trolling...
One of the good things about DASH is that it doesn't get caught up in complex solutions when simple solutions will do. You could use molecular resonance to create a harmonic barrier to keep air from blowing out your front door and air conditioning the whole neighborhood. Or, you could just close the fucking door.
One of the good things about DASH is that it doesn't get caught up in complex solutions when simple solutions will do. You could use molecular resonance to create a harmonic barrier to keep air from blowing out your front door and air conditioning the whole neighborhood. Or, you could just close the fucking door.
camosoul
Well-known member
"if you can sybil btc by running a bunch of non collateralized full nodes why can't you do the same with dash?"
For the same reason it doesn't happen in BTC, squared. To run an MN, you need 1000DASH. If you tried to buy the amount of DASH needed to do what you're imagining, the price would shoot up exponentially. You forget that anyone can run a BTC "full node" which is not even the same thing. But, an MN requires buying 1000DASH.
So many throwing around the word "sybil attack" in a totally generic manner... It's as dumb as saying "cars can break down." But how? What part broke? What was the intended means of attack and intended outcome? It's clear the definition isn't even understood by the people using the word...
For the same reason it doesn't happen in BTC, squared. To run an MN, you need 1000DASH. If you tried to buy the amount of DASH needed to do what you're imagining, the price would shoot up exponentially. You forget that anyone can run a BTC "full node" which is not even the same thing. But, an MN requires buying 1000DASH.
So many throwing around the word "sybil attack" in a totally generic manner... It's as dumb as saying "cars can break down." But how? What part broke? What was the intended means of attack and intended outcome? It's clear the definition isn't even understood by the people using the word...
To answer any question you need to start from the definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack
IMO this term is sometimes misused in all kind of ways. Here are some examples of what I think is and what is not a Sybil attack:
1) Some company runs a bunch of nodes collecting information to analyze transactions and their origin points to have an instrument to group single addresses into actual "wallets" - yep, that's a Sybil attack (attacker can overhear communications).
2) Same story but nodes are used to censor some transactions - yep, that's a Sybil attack (attacker can act maliciously). They can even disrupt consensus if they split network apart. Pools however have hundreds of connections usually including connections to each other so that kind of attack would not be very successful IMO.
3) Bitcoin Classic supporters run a bunch of nodes to imitate support - Bitcoin Core supporters: "Oh, we are under Sybil attack from evil Classic supporters!" - well.... node version they signal to other nodes means NOTHING, only block/tx version does and that's miners' job. Do some graphs with node count look convincing to general public? Sure. Are they convincing anyone who have at least some understanding how network really works? Nah, I don't think so. So it's kind of close (imitating some kind of reputation and trying to influence) but technically that's not a Sybil attack IMO.
So now how does this apply to Dash then?
1) same as Bitcoin but we have 4K nodes that are most likely to behave honestly, we could implement kind of "emergency mode" where your wallet would jump from one masternode to another dropping all connections after each transaction or from nodes which are not masternodes for example etc.
2) same + most of the time wallets connect directly to masternodes to mix funds, disrupting this will be much more difficult even without any additional mode.
3) we have no Classic yet
4) There are nodes which have reputation and kind of identities - masternodes. They also make some decisions. So there is definitely an attack vector called Sybil attack, right? Right! (thought I would say "Wrong!", do you?) Attacker can disrupt voting if he has enough masternodes (attacker can act maliciously). There is an attack vector but it's mitigated via collateral transactions.
So how does this apply to Bitcoin?
IMO this term is sometimes misused in all kind of ways. Here are some examples of what I think is and what is not a Sybil attack:
1) Some company runs a bunch of nodes collecting information to analyze transactions and their origin points to have an instrument to group single addresses into actual "wallets" - yep, that's a Sybil attack (attacker can overhear communications).
2) Same story but nodes are used to censor some transactions - yep, that's a Sybil attack (attacker can act maliciously). They can even disrupt consensus if they split network apart. Pools however have hundreds of connections usually including connections to each other so that kind of attack would not be very successful IMO.
3) Bitcoin Classic supporters run a bunch of nodes to imitate support - Bitcoin Core supporters: "Oh, we are under Sybil attack from evil Classic supporters!" - well.... node version they signal to other nodes means NOTHING, only block/tx version does and that's miners' job. Do some graphs with node count look convincing to general public? Sure. Are they convincing anyone who have at least some understanding how network really works? Nah, I don't think so. So it's kind of close (imitating some kind of reputation and trying to influence) but technically that's not a Sybil attack IMO.
So now how does this apply to Dash then?
1) same as Bitcoin but we have 4K nodes that are most likely to behave honestly, we could implement kind of "emergency mode" where your wallet would jump from one masternode to another dropping all connections after each transaction or from nodes which are not masternodes for example etc.
2) same + most of the time wallets connect directly to masternodes to mix funds, disrupting this will be much more difficult even without any additional mode.
3) we have no Classic yet
4) There are nodes which have reputation and kind of identities - masternodes. They also make some decisions. So there is definitely an attack vector called Sybil attack, right? Right! (thought I would say "Wrong!", do you?
) Attacker can disrupt voting if he has enough masternodes (attacker can act maliciously). There is an attack vector but it's mitigated via collateral transactions.It's not that cheap to spawn a masternode and it's definitely not cheap to attack once you have enough of them because attacking network having lots of your funds "locked" inside is like shooting yourself in the foot, I wouldn't advise anyone
Well, there is no need for any central validation authority and there is no single entity to attack when you have distributed ledger and that's what we are using to verify collateral transactions.