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Pre-Proposal: The Lockdown

GrandMasterDash

Well-known member
Masternode Owner/Operator
The Problem

The reasons for investing in a dash masternode is not always going to be a binary decision i.e. voting vs ROI. I suggest each masternode owner has balanced their objectives on a scale i.e. they may participate in voting more or less than others. They are, perhaps, more passionate of some proposals than others. In some cases, a proposal is able to provoke and activate many voters. In short, they participate or not for selfish reasons.

With that said, for both technical reasons and economic scarcity, the pool of participants is relatively small compared to, say, a large shareholding company. Thus, a relatively small number of voting participants are directing the outcome of dash for all stake holders, whether that is end users, masternode owners, or miners. I suppose the obvious response to this would be, "if you don't care, you don't vote", but this is just one point of view. It could equally be said that end users and masternode owners alike make their investments with some assumptions e.g. that a status quo exists, that dash functions in a certain way to fulfill certain objectives.

The classic response to this is, "but many small investors are participating with crowdnode". Misdirection. Those small investors have zero responsibility to maintain a node and keep it running (assuming DCG hasn't caused a chain halt in the first place). The whole point of 1000 dash collateral is to give the masternode owner "skin in the game", not to forego and delegate their own vote to people without skin in the game... for that in itself is a fundamental change to the tokenomics.

Let us consider the view of a bitcoin maxi; multiple node implementations and a protocol that is very difficult to change across all implementations. It does change, albeit conservatively. A maxi will argue, this predictability is what attracts large investors, they don't want to wake up one morning and find the tokenomics has been tinkered with yet again. We know the flipside argument; dash is more nimble and can adapt quickly, as demonstrated with block size expansion in the early days, blah blah balh.

Unlike bitcoin - because bitcoin doesn't have masternodes - there is only one viable dashd for masternodes, supplied by Dash Core Group. There are no truly independent and working alternatives. This system enables DCG to regularly enforce upgrades by demonetizing ALL old versions. THIS IS NOT A PROTOCOL. This is a single entity, paid from a treasury, where voting is decided by a few humpback dash holders (a humpback controls 5000 or more dash).

To some degree, we can compare the masternode system to the bitcoin Lightning Network as they are both, essentially, special types of wallet. Personally, I think the Lightning Network is a shit experience, but crucially, there are multiple Lightning node implementations whereas dashd alternatives for masternodes... nowhere to be seen, NO VIABLE INDEPENDENT ALTERNATIVES.

I digress, back to the status quo.

The Solution

I propose:

1. For a proposal to be successful, it must attain YES votes from at least 51% of ALL active masternodes.

2. The voting default will be NO because, as outlined above, an investor should have an expectation of a status quo, "this is what I expect and it must not be easy to change".

Unfortunately, nothing in this proposal fixes the problem of no dashd masternode alternatives, but it may give investors more confidence, less risk of destabilizing changes.

In all honesty, I do not expect this proposal to pass because, as outlined above, imo the dash dao is broken beyond repair. Vote YES and prove me wrong!
 
That would give favored proposals an automatic disadvantage with Binance and other various non-voting nodes. There are nodes that will never vote.
 
How about a locking mechanism for voting MNs, you can't vote if you don't lock, and then simple majority for passage?
 
That would give favored proposals an automatic disadvantage with Binance and other various non-voting nodes. There are nodes that will never vote.
Well, we say non-voting nodes but isn't that their prerogative? - they could vote. Imagine for a moment that large pools of masternodes were in the hands of multiple large orgs such as Binance and Coinbase etc... it would be easier for them to attack the current voting system than collude with 51%.of all masternodes. On the face of it, this seems more robust to me.

How about a locking mechanism for voting MNs, you can't vote if you don't lock, and then simple majority for passage?
I'm in favor of trying locking mechanisms for both treasury and masternodes payments. But if voting remains only to those who register, then I don't think it will help because it's still potentially a small subset of the electorate. To work with a small subset of the electorate, you would want some mechanism to ensure they were experts, or at least above average in their decision making. That too would be possible, perhaps a bot delegating voting permissions to those that make profitable decisions.. but I feel that's for another day and far more complicated.
 
Steps for a decent governance proposal that may lead to a change.
1) You put a governance question asking the voters to confirm the status quo.
2) If the status quo is not confirmed, obviously a change is needed, so you search someone to fund and/or to code the change.
3) After coding the change, you put into vote your governance proposal along with the required code.
 
Yes demo, it was this that made me think how true it was. Throughout this entire process, stake holders other than a small group of MNOs, were marginalized.
 
I would support a proposal to increase the pass mark from 10% super majority to something higher, eg 20%. I think whenever we vote on something, eg to fund a DFO or a decision proposal, it is a very grave decision that must be supported by as much of the network as possible.

As a quick diversion, how should we classify the fish in Dash ?

Code:
Dash

1k-4k a shrimp?
5k-10k a shark?
11k-20k a dolphin
21k-50k a whale?
51k+ a blue whale?

In general MNOwatch uses these classes, but it would be nice to formalise it.
 
I would support a proposal to increase the pass mark from 10% super majority to something higher, eg 20%. I think whenever we vote on something, eg to fund a DFO or a decision proposal, it is a very grave decision that must be supported by as much of the network as possible.

As a quick diversion, how should we classify the fish in Dash ?

Code:
Dash

1k-4k a shrimp?
5k-10k a shark?
11k-20k a dolphin
21k-50k a whale?
51k+ a blue whale?

In general MNOwatch uses these classes, but it would be nice to formalise it.

I have a different approach. The decision method that should be used to extract the voting outcome, should be related to the question asked. This is called "the double vote". You do not only answer to the question of the poll, you also specify your favorite method.

For example here:
If the method is "10% net votes", the proposal does not pass. But it passes if we use other methods!!!


So the voter should not only be allowed to answer YES/NO/ABSTAIN. The voter should be allowed to vote (YES/NO/Abstain,method), and for all methods that respect themselves (a method respects itself if it is applied to itself and it is eligible. For example for the method 51%, 51% of the people must support it) the most popular method should be applied and extract the outcome.
 
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It's interesting, but by that definition a humpback would own the entire masternode network, it would mean we have no humpbacks at all, besides, a humpback is not the biggest fish in the sea, a blue whale is.
Eh? - substituting 1 BTC for 1 DASH.. 1 humpback owns >= 5000 DASH

I think I threw you when I said 1 BTC buys 1 masternode... 1 is crab, the other a whale.
 
Eh? - substituting 1 BTC for 1 DASH.. 1 humpback owns >= 5000 DASH

I think I threw you when I said 1 BTC buys 1 masternode... 1 is crab, the other a whale.
yeah, that also doesn't scale, since 5k Dash owner is a very small fish in the Dash pond, we need scaling that makes sense for our pond. Refer to our types page https://mnowatch.org/Types/ We have fish as large as 270 (Binance) but not uncommon is 70+ nodes eg in the case of JohnDozen and Weejohnny and of course the Spirit of Dash - Spirit. Looking at the voting distribution also sheds some light, eg https://mnowatch.org/distr_2023-09-17-00-52-16.txt

1 operator(s) control(s) 0082 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0075 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0067 masternode(s)
2 operator(s) control(s) 0035 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0028 masternode(s)
2 operator(s) control(s) 0026 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0024 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0022 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0013 masternode(s)
2 operator(s) control(s) 0012 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0010 masternode(s)
1 operator(s) control(s) 0009 masternode(s)
5 operator(s) control(s) 0008 masternode(s)
2 operator(s) control(s) 0007 masternode(s)
7 operator(s) control(s) 0006 masternode(s)
8 operator(s) control(s) 0005 masternode(s)
10 operator(s) control(s) 0004 masternode(s)
17 operator(s) control(s) 0003 masternode(s)
23 operator(s) control(s) 0002 masternode(s)
81 operator(s) control(s) 0001 masternode(s)

You've got one with 75, one with 67, two 35, all the way through to eight with 5, ten with 4, down to eighty one with 1 !
 
yeah, that also doesn't scale..
Perhaps comparable to bitcoin holders, Binance with 248K bitcoin:

Maybe stick with the bitcoin definitions (being they have similar total supply) and then color code the humpbacks? - gold, silver, bronze etc.
 
This proposal, in my opinion, would probably lead to the only result that no proposal would subsequently pass.
I think Proposals should make Masternodes active, make them actively participate without colliding with the other components of the DAO.

An idea that could improve many aspects of the Dash Community could be the following: modify the ROI so that the Masternodes that actively participate and contribute to the decisions of the DAO receive a significantly higher percentage of the rewards (at least 50% more, so around to 12% or more), while those who remain passive suffer a significant reduction in their ROI (at least 50% less, so around 3.5% or less). Obviously we are aware that these are numbers that do not take into account many variables and this change should be adaptive based on the level of participation, for example, the Masternodes that constantly participate in the voting and read the proposals (to understand if a tool that can know how much time you spent reading the Proposal while still maintaining privacy) would have a higher ROI than those who participate only occasionally. This would encourage more active and responsible participation in the governance of Dash. Furthermore, one could also think of allocating a part of the (already low) ROI of non-voting MNs to the superbloc, so that non-participation would become a "collective good" and the superbloc would benefit, therefore everyone. In general we think that this huge amount of non-voting MNs are toxic for the entire Dash project and keep many new users away.
This could be a win win win Proposal, where you don't go against anyone, except against those who are exclusively interested in an ROI but get it without doing anything other than keeping a PC turned on 24 hours a day...
 
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modify the ROI so that the Masternodes that actively participate and contribute to the decisions of the DAO receive a significantly higher percentage of the rewards

This will lead to the automation of voting. The Masternodes will vote automatically and randomly, in order to get the rewards.

The voting automation is already implemented in the DashMasternodeTool of @Bertrand256 where the whales can split their votes to several chunks, and vote by each chunk in different time, in order to prevent mnowatch.org to spot them.


dmt-proposals-config-time-offset.png


So if your proposal is implemented, DMT can easily improve itself and provide a new feature where a random vote is casted in order to appear as an active voter and get the rewards.
 
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This proposal, in my opinion, would probably lead to the only result that no proposal would subsequently pass.
I think Proposals should make Masternodes active, make them actively participate without colliding with the other components of the DAO.

An idea that could improve many aspects of the Dash Community could be the following: modify the ROI so that the Masternodes that actively participate and contribute to the decisions of the DAO receive a significantly higher percentage of the rewards (at least 50% more, so around to 12% or more), while those who remain passive suffer a significant reduction in their ROI (at least 50% less, so around 3.5% or less). Obviously we are aware that these are numbers that do not take into account many variables and this change should be adaptive based on the level of participation, for example, the Masternodes that constantly participate in the voting and read the proposals (to understand if a tool that can know how much time you spent reading the Proposal while still maintaining privacy) would have a higher ROI than those who participate only occasionally. This would encourage more active and responsible participation in the governance of Dash. Furthermore, one could also think of allocating a part of the (already low) ROI of non-voting MNs to the superbloc, so that non-participation would become a "collective good" and the superbloc would benefit, therefore everyone. In general we think that this huge amount of non-voting MNs are toxic for the entire Dash project and keep many new users away.
This could be a win win win Proposal, where you don't go against anyone, except against those who are exclusively interested in an ROI but get it without doing anything other than keeping a PC turned on 24 hours a day...

The problem as I see it, is a lack of expertise and experience in the subjects being voted on. Not to say there are no intelligent or experienced MNOs - of course there must be - but rather the outcome is always going to be an average from a relatively small set of voters. It is these voters that are driving the roadmap of dash in a somewhat ad hoc manner. In such circumstance, is it acceptable that the same people who vote for marketing proposals, also vote for lower mining rewards without (a) having enough expertise or experience in said subjects, and (b) have insufficient analytics on which to measure success or failure? I mean, how do we know what time and effort each voter makes before casting their vote? - I suggest many will glance over a proposal, make a finger-in-the-air judgement and move on. There is no immediate loss for making bad judgements, but we see the overall results in the long term, failure after failure.
 
If we are being honest with ourselves, some masternode operators (a large chunk actually) are not interested in DAO governance. To put things in perspective, there are around 3,500 masternodes but how many of them are registered on Dash Central? Your proposed solution will hugely affect the ability for proposals to pass moving forward.

Another problem, like someone said above is the technicality of a proposal. Proposals should be simplified to a point where my grandma would be able to understand it, beyond that, is there a way to send out automated notifications on upcoming proposals and discussions to members of the forum. I can offer to do this since I'm already in the copywriting and content creation field.

Finally, you said Dash DAO is broken. Can you shed some light on how and why it is broken?
 
If we are being honest with ourselves, some masternode operators (a large chunk actually) are not interested in DAO governance. To put things in perspective, there are around 3,500 masternodes but how many of them are registered on Dash Central? Your proposed solution will hugely affect the ability for proposals to pass moving forward.

Another problem, like someone said above is the technicality of a proposal. Proposals should be simplified to a point where my grandma would be able to understand it, beyond that, is there a way to send out automated notifications on upcoming proposals and discussions to members of the forum. I can offer to do this since I'm already in the copywriting and content creation field.

Finally, you said Dash DAO is broken. Can you shed some light on how and why it is broken?

Let's start with the dash dao, the self-sufficiency machine. After all these years, what products or services remain? Nearly all the great dash projects fell apart. Dash Central is *still* the center of the universe because, well, the alternatives failed.

  • Dash Direct, gone.
  • Trust Protectors, gone.
  • Dash Invests (DIF), website down, "Error establishing a database connection"
  • Thorchain, prolonged then dropped and handed over to Maya Protocol.
  • 5x lower proposals fees.. and still outsiders don't come. Even the spammers stay away!
  • Bitrefill, dash right at the bottom of their list of coins. There is no real alternative to bitrefill with the range of vouchers and countries.. if they ever drop dash, then what?
  • Failed regulatory dialogue, including Japan.
  • Country specific dash embassies, gone.
  • Coin Mixing still takes hours.
  • A marketing hub that refuses to publish analytics.
  • No presence on the decred DEX.
  • Next to zero press coverage / regular trading analysis.
  • 6 months academic ZKP research for dash dao voting, never materialized.
This kind of failure is systemic and quite evident with the price of dash at 26 USD.

So you say this proposal, "will hugely affect the ability for proposals to pass moving forward" but given the above track record, can we really consider this a loss given the flipside is all stakeholders benefiting from less dash being produced every month. And if what you say is true, "some masternode operators (a large chunk actually) are not interested in DAO governance" then we are allowing a minority of MNOs - without any proven track record - to run the show.
 
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