[pre-proposal] Exchange Listing Incentive Program

[n00bkid]

I agree with @IronVape -- provided that escrow/accountability are provided for, this is a fantastic proposal and I'd vote 'yes.'

Also, welcome to the community, @DashDude!

It's exciting to see you jump right in like this. I'd love to go and check that you've posted something on your LinkedIn profile that confirms your identity on this forum, but that means I'd have to create a LinkedIn account first. Blech. Can anyone confirm whether Mr. Dussault has yet found a moment to post to his LinkedIn?

 

[MizzyMax]

Never a good idea. Note that with this investment in exchanges, we are hoping that it drives just as much money to Dash as paid. 1000 Dash is equal to 170k! Do you think 1 exchange simply pressing a button will return that money and some? For one exchange to make us 170k is a huge amount of money.

Also ask yourself how often you even use exchanges and how much you trust exchanges. Myself I am 100% against exchanges, we should have learned from Mt.gox.

Now if you solve a problem for exchanges/ATMs to have benefits to accept Dash, then I am all for it, but simply paying them off won't work.

 

[Skaarup]

Thanks for the kind words @Dashmaximalist!

Regarding the Indian exchanges - my thought was to see how this program is received with the major exchanges listed in the proposal and DASH community first. If things go well with this first proposal I have envisioned another round of incentives to cover some of the second tier fiat pairs/exchanges including the ones you mentioned.

I agree with Dashmaximalist since the goverment of India is so careless about their own FIAT Money and people dont trust their own Money so I think Dashmaximalist is totally on the right track.

 

[TheSingleton]

Never a good idea. Note that with this investment in exchanges, we are hoping that it drives just as much money to Dash as paid. 1000 Dash is equal to 170k! Do you think 1 exchange simply pressing a button will return that money and some? For one exchange to make us 170k is a huge amount of money.

Also ask yourself how often you even use exchanges and how much you trust exchanges. Myself I am 100% against exchanges, we should have learned from Mt.gox.

Now if you solve a problem for exchanges/ATMs to have benefits to accept Dash, then I am all for it, but simply paying them off won't work.

How are you calculating the return? Even a tiny 1$ increase in price would increase the value of the Dash Network by the Number of coins so around 7$million. Then more Fiat trading pairs would reduce our dependence on Bitcoin.

 

[Dashmaximalist]

How are you calculating the return? Even a tiny 1$ increase in price would increase the value of the Dash Network by the Number of coins so around 7$million. Then more Fiat trading pairs would reduce our dependence on Bitcoin.

exactly , Exchanges are lifeblood of crpyto until our plan of world domination completes , if all exchanges decided to not list dash , the value of dash would approach zero quickly , alternatively if all big ones list us , the value will skyrocket

 

[Dashmaximalist]

I agree with Dashmaximalist since the goverment of India is so careless about their own FIAT Money and people dont trust their own Money so I think Dashmaximalist is totally on the right track.

thanks for that

India is one of those places where there is a constant 10-20% premium ( along with nigeria fyi ) over the international price which shows the love for crypto , the real reasons for this is the following, Indian Govt put lots of capital controls on moving money and bans every form of gambling hence Indians feel very constrained, any outlet that lets them move their money easily is hugely welcomed. Indians also had a devastating experience with the recent demonetization , so they have started loving crypto more than any other country

Nigeria is whole different story , Nigeria is having an economic collapse in which there is a 30-50% annual deprecation and an official and black market exchange rate. it's also the land of biggest crypto MLM scams, Nigerians are by far the biggest per capita crypto users along with venezuelans

 

[MizzyMax]

How are you calculating the return? Even a tiny 1$ increase in price would increase the value of the Dash Network by the Number of coins so around 7$million. Then more Fiat trading pairs would reduce our dependence on Bitcoin.

1000 Dash at 170 dollars is 170k... we create 170k of inflation so our value goes down until it is replenished. I really don't believe that an exchange will bring us 170k in returns and more.

NEM for example doesn't believe in paying for being on exchanges, so they aren't even on shapeshift. But there price was double ours at one point.... so understand that exchanges do not give us huge returns.

 

[TheSingleton]

1000 Dash at 170 dollars is 170k... we create 170k of inflation so our value goes down until it is replenished. I really don't believe that an exchange will bring us 170k in returns and more.

NEM for example doesn't believe in paying for being on exchanges, so they aren't even on shapeshift. But there price was double ours at one point.... so understand that exchanges do not give us huge returns.

Assuming a starting price of 170$ per Dash then issuing 1000 extra dash would drop the price to 170*(7435435/7436435) = 169.977
And depending on the exchange I can easily see the price increase a couple dollars probably even more.

Regarding NEM comparing prices is not appropriate as they are based too much on speculation. And if you instead compare tx/day i.e. actual usage then Dash is ahead.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

1000 Dash at 170 dollars is 170k... we create 170k of inflation so our value goes down until it is replenished. I really don't believe that an exchange will bring us 170k in returns and more.

NEM for example doesn't believe in paying for being on exchanges, so they aren't even on shapeshift. But there price was double ours at one point.... so understand that exchanges do not give us huge returns.

I like NEM a lot but like most cryptos, they do not have an ongoing funding model (despite having supernodes). Decisions like that limit their growth and that's exactly the same thinking that lead them to their restrictive exchange policy. And don't forget, NEM doesn't need (or want?) public exchanges so much because they also concentrate on their private mijin blockchain.

 

[bigshort]

This is great. I like the proposal a lot. Our budget has expanded extremly fast. Core and other proven entities (Amanda, Dashforce ...) where not able to keep up. With this proposal we can allocate more leftover budget to a profitable use. Dont get me wrong, but some of the current propasal seem like childish gimmick to me. Even if we allow some new players with new ideas to mature, the present level of experimentation especially for marketing ideas is too much for me.
I am glad, we put a junk of money away into something with a guraranteed return. (Three cents in price appreciation makes up for the money spent in one exchange listing).
"Do it already"
Edit : Addition: Considering the amount of money envolved, a 3 out of 5 signature would be saver.

 

[halso]

I would encourage revolut to be included. They have 700k customers. Rapidly expanding and have announced they will include cryptos in the near future.

 

[DashDude]

I wanted to give an update on current status of this proposal. I was waiting on feedback from Daniel Diaz @Minotaur and I did receive an email from him. I won't go into all the details, but as I expected he did have some legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. For example, some exchanges might be open to a deal privately, but may not like a public bounty program. Some exchanges might be able to accept help in the form of technical consultations, but may not be able to accept payment for listing. Daniel also suggested that in Japan regulatory issues/clarifications were of greater importance than the cost of doing the integration.

I think this proposal can be modified to better address what's actually needed and I've asked Daniel what he needs and how we can help. Let's see what he comes back with and go from there. Thanks for all the comments and the spirited debate on this proposal!

 

[Skaarup]

I like the idea but Dashdude you need to core team to handle the dash and I might even say that it's too much dash, I think we can prop most people for much less dash.. It's free for the exchanges and for that much dash you need more than just a listing. But I will vote yes if the dash team handle the dashcoins because dude who are you? We have been scammed before.. But I like your thinking but again it's a lot of dash.

 

[MizzyMax]

I like NEM a lot but like most cryptos, they do not have an ongoing funding model (despite having supernodes). Decisions like that limit their growth and that's exactly the same thinking that lead them to their restrictive exchange policy. And don't forget, NEM doesn't need (or want?) public exchanges so much because they also concentrate on their private mijin blockchain.

Yea I know sadly they don't, I wish they did. But I thought I should bring it up, it's a valid point that they don't need to pay exchanges to carry them.

Also I think we should really just get the perspective in our head that none of them can be trusted. We could give them 1000 Dash and they can run off with it like MT.gox. Even encouraging our users to hold Dash on exchanges could be a large risk. If these exchanges go down so do we. But if we don't encourage the use of exchanges, and exchanges fall, we don't. Personally I think of exchanges as banks, they are not going to be around forever.

 

[DashDude]

Hi, @Skaarup. Did you see that my proposal already includes a multisig escrow? I don't expect anyone to trust me with the escrow funds, especially when it's not necessary. Regarding the size and nature of incentives, I'm trying to refine this with Daniel Diaz as I mentioned in my post earlier today.

@halso - Thanks for the heads up on revolut. I'll check them out.

 

[MizzyMax]

Assuming a starting price of 170$ per Dash then issuing 1000 extra dash would drop the price to 170*(7435435/7436435) = 169.977
And depending on the exchange I can easily see the price increase a couple dollars probably even more.

Regarding NEM comparing prices is not appropriate as they are based too much on speculation. And if you instead compare tx/day i.e. actual usage then Dash is ahead.

its a waste, why even care to buy out these exchanges honestly. They provide no value to Dash. We need to grow from the inside instead of trying to force the outside to accept us.

I find them to be extremely shady, almost all of them are. Do you yourself use these exchanges daily? Or anyone for that matter. Please list the exchanges you actually Hace used and trust that Dash isn't on.

And if NEMs price is not just based on speculation, it's value, and Core product is based on that number.

 

[bigshort]

I wanted to give an update on current status of this proposal. I was waiting on feedback from Daniel Diaz @Minotaur and I did receive an email from him. I won't go into all the details, but as I expected he did have some legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. For example, some exchanges might be open to a deal privately, but may not like a public bounty program. Some exchanges might be able to accept help in the form of technical consultations, but may not be able to accept payment for listing. Daniel also suggested that in Japan regulatory issues/clarifications were of greater importance than the cost of doing the integration.

I think this proposal can be modified to better address what's actually needed and I've asked Daniel what he needs and how we can help. Let's see what he comes back with and go from there. !

Dont worry too much about the individual wishes of the exchanges. Your approach is a broad approach "to whom it may concern". It will make waves and will start things going. Nobody took the effort to approach every single one of the exchanges individually. So now we do it in a different way. Keep on moving forward!

 

[Ryan Taylor]

I wanted to give an update on current status of this proposal. I was waiting on feedback from Daniel Diaz @Minotaur and I did receive an email from him. I won't go into all the details, but as I expected he did have some legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. For example, some exchanges might be open to a deal privately, but may not like a public bounty program. Some exchanges might be able to accept help in the form of technical consultations, but may not be able to accept payment for listing. Daniel also suggested that in Japan regulatory issues/clarifications were of greater importance than the cost of doing the integration.

I think this proposal can be modified to better address what's actually needed and I've asked Daniel what he needs and how we can help. Let's see what he comes back with and go from there. Thanks for all the comments and the spirited debate on this proposal!

Yes, just seeing this now. As I reviewed your list of exchanges and my knowledge of the issues they face, funding is almost never the major issue that requires our assistance, and for regulatory reasons, they often cannot accept payment anyway. This proposal is well-intentioned, but in my opinion would do little to encourage Dash adoption. In some cases, an exchange needs us to integrate into their platform provider (because they don't run their own infrastructure) so we are doing that. In others, the issue is regulatory (you mentioned Japan). For other exchanges, the issue is that they need to address some scalability issues first to handle current volumes (adding more coins would only make the problem worse right now), and so they can't add Dash until Q1 2018 when scalability projects are complete.

In short, monetary incentives are rarely going to accelerate a Dash listing, so you'd be giving away funds needlessly with little incremental acceleration of a Dash listing. We are not in discussions with ALL of the targets you mention, but enough for us to know this would have little impact on the most critical listings. Where funding makes a difference, like paying for Kraken's security review, we are already taking the steps to fund those expenses.

 

[Dashmaximalist]

I like NEM a lot but like most cryptos, they do not have an ongoing funding model (despite having supernodes). Decisions like that limit their growth and that's exactly the same thinking that lead them to their restrictive exchange policy. And don't forget, NEM doesn't need (or want?) public exchanges so much because they also concentrate on their private mijin blockchain.

Heres why dash is the best crypto out there as its a hybrid of POW with POS -Service ( unless this is my genuine worry ... facebook clones dash and gives $5 for every user ) , NEM is pure POS (proof of stake ) coin, what it means there is no mining happening whatsoever and the original people keep getting more and more coins as time progress that's only a minor issue , the major issue is this
we all speak about the 51% attack right , in POS the cost to do that is literally zero to the attacker , if a group of people manage to get 51% of the coins ( and eventually they will ) they can and will start attacking the transaction processing and start diverting funds, in POW there is a pretty reasonable cost in terms of mining power required etc

you might be thinking why will people do that ? imagine CIA decides it has enough with this crypto revolution ( and people gaining control over the most important part of their lives which is money ) they will look out for the richest folks holding NEM coin and round them up and the CIA will start attacking this coin, in case of POW they need to travel to 10000s of places where mining is taking place and imagine mining happening in north korea ( as they figured out its very profitable to do it ) they simply cant step in. with POS its as simple as catching a person etc etc, so NEM can never be a currency it can be a token like a share etc

so POS can never be a trusted currency as we all know pure POW Like bitcoin has tons of ongoing issues

 

[bigshort]

Yes, just seeing this now. As I reviewed your list of exchanges and my knowledge of the issues they face, funding is almost never the major issue that requires our assistance, and for regulatory reasons, they often cannot accept payment anyway. This proposal is well-intentioned, but in my opinion would do little to encourage Dash adoption. In some cases, an exchange needs us to integrate into their platform provider (because they don't run their own infrastructure) so we are doing that. In others, the issue is regulatory (you mentioned Japan). For other exchanges, the issue is that they need to address some scalability issues first to handle current volumes (adding more coins would only make the problem worse right now), and so they can't add Dash until Q1 2018 when scalability projects are complete.

In short, monetary incentives are rarely going to accelerate a Dash listing, so you'd be giving away funds needlessly with little incremental acceleration of a Dash listing. We are not in discussions with ALL of the targets you mention, but enough for us to know this would have little impact on the most critical listings. Where funding makes a difference, like paying for Kraken's security review, we are already taking the steps to fund those expenses.

To be honest with you, I am not very convinced by your reply. The proposal mentions 10 exchanges. Considering your workload, you are probably only in contact with very few of them. You are also quoting issues the exchanges might have (regulatory, capacity) without really being very specific. We should not worry too much about the exchanges problems. It is their business not ours, and eventually it is their task to find a way around these roadblocks. Exchanges solve these kind of issues every day when they list coins. The only thing we are asking them to do is to let us skip the queue. Why? Because we have money to offer. And believe me, money talks. Maybe they do not admit it to you, but they want to make money. Please do not discourage this offer. It costs you very little time and - if it is not taken up by the exchanges - it does not cost any money either.