• Forum has been upgraded, all links, images, etc are as they were. Please see Official Announcements for more information

Miner reallocation2 / DAO refill

Boost the DAO to 20% from miner rewards


  • Total voters
    25
Random thought.. perhaps just change the treasury payouts to time locked transactions e.g. Proposal Owners can't spend / move their earnings until, say, 6 months into the future. That POs come to appreciate it's not easy come and easy go.
This is a good idea for payments in general.
Time-locked instruments are used extensively in proper economic systems.
Optional time-locking for superblock payments, masternode collateral, or even mining block rewards (beyond 100 blocks) should all be explored more, but doing that is a matter of priorities and man power.
 
DCG can't commit to a mainnet release this year (2023) and QE constantly communicates they're coding like crazy. It's not a healthy situation for anyone. I want DCG to perform optimally, not years of constant high/extreme pressure, approaching a possible total burn-out and all the time not actually getting anything evo delivered? I'm not sure, what anyone's thinking in Dash currently. Yeah, I know there's something Evo on testnet, but they're also virtually bankrupt.

Dash could try to deal with its extremely poor market performance by identifying and resolving causes. Start by admitting that Dash is likely wrong about a few things, possibly even a lot. Dash is obviously not following a successful strategy, but somehow nothing changes. The wannabe CEO & CFO are gone, but they were ghosts anyways and did significant damage to the project, but yeah things just suck and it's really because of internal problems, not because of anything external or a parameter that needs to be changed.

Giving more to a group of programmers who show no ambition to promote this project, ever, .. I'm sorry, but DCG doesn't deserve it. The project doesn't work because Dash in general is a chicken shit project that hides in a cave and brainwashes their investors with poppycock. I don't mind that it is alledgedly highly technical now, that's great in theory, but you don't really feel it, other than DCG is now just coding all the time and that's it. Exactly what they wanted. Exactly how it was during old DCG, but now there's no CXO level that can talk some talk to distract the investors a bit. So we're a technical project. Right.

Answer honestly if you would support Evan/DCG's decision to create Evo knowing it would take at least 7 years (and counting), without this having been requested by anyone in the community, and that the final solution would be to have everything we currently plan on releasing to just have "evo usernames wallet" (components, secondary blockchain). It was all just an idea, a suggestion. Everybody would say NO WAY you fucking retards, Dash might be dead in two years, let's focus on what matters NOW. Nobody cares about granny anywayz.. She ain't buying any Dash you fucking retards! It was Evan's idea, but in the end it was really DCG's decision to do it and to keep pushing ahead while blowing fairyfarts in our face.

This project does not depend on Evo, at all. Evo is not a priority. It should not be, but DCG is going "all in" on it, while constantly being in a financial situation that is unhealthy to put it mildly. How does that make sense in a so-called corporation? What the hell are you people smoking? It also means they're not focussed on what's most important for Dash. WenEvo meme is not helping. From a technical pov; stability, security and reliability of the core network should be primordial, and DCG imo even failed in this regard big time, just recently with the chain halt, as well as with the major service availability exploit (old qfcommit replay attack) that went unnoticed for 6 versions. They weren't even the first to notice iirc. I think a lot of people were shocked, but don't dare to say anything. Overall resolution for a global network unavailablity was very long, but I understand it's hard to compare to a non crypto network. We don't have any type of fail-over mechanism, but this also means that bugs causing chain halts are simply unacceptable, so where is the operational capability? Show it to me. They were just not prepared at all for this eventuality. This just shows that global adoption, or even any significant amount of adoption is just not realistic. Half a day of service unavailable, 24h ? What was the major incident detection time for DCG? Insane. We don't even have a proper network incident (alterting) monitoring tool. Imagine we have hundreds of thousands of users. Investors like Bitcoin, cause it doesn't change. In this way, it's more reliable than Dash. Dash changes a lot, constantly in fact. It's now happened once, and somehow we all know, it will happen again somewhere in the future. The delusion is broken. Who monitors the network? Who analyses network data? We don't have money right. We'll hear it when there's a problem. Dash code perfect. It has hurt my trust in the project's basic operational capability.

I would have been more forgiving, but honestly I see a lot of serious problems. Just to give one example, I kindly requested if any improvement points were identified regarding the chain halt major incident and no-one in DCG answered. Aside from doing all the necessary to restore the service, all we got were some brief answers to questions on discord, a handful of tweets and a blog post. Almost a sense of "what's with the questions, chain halts just happen from time to time". Bugs cannot be avoided. Testing everything is impossible. Don't bust our balls please, we're exhausted. That was it. If you can't see that this project has downgraded into the hobby club of we-also-want-to-make-a-crypto-devs, then you're blind. They're not on top of it, not knowing what's happening on miner side, having no contacts afaict. It is as simply as having a mailing list for miners. Make it subscribable on the website or whatever it takes, hire someone to make a list. Honestly a retard could do it. We can do it. Communicate! It's just beneath DCG. They don't care about the miners. It really shows. When I asked about communication regarding the chain halt, I got scolded for asking about it. I wasn't even critiquing. I just wanted to know what communication had been done so far, as I woke up to the drama. Sad.

Darkcoin/Dash V12 would still be producing blocks without any serious issues today. ChainLocks is the cause of 'ChainHaltEqualsDeath' eh?, new BLS scheme serialization bug. Woot woot. Moooo superior than lame "ordinary" (ew) Proof of Work chains! Three times hooray for BLS schemes! There is development and operations, and I feel it's all in on Evo and bare minimum on whatever else is strictly required.

Dash Control Group and the low IQ minions really do not care about the miners. They're going to kill off Proof of Work entirely as soon as they can and a majority of MNOs will support it, cause they'll get a larger share too of course. That's exactly how corruption works. Two fuckers decide to "legitimately" take (steal) from a third. They won't even know or care what miners think. They've already proven this. So there's no denying this. Once you show you're unethical, basically corrupt, you will just keep pulling the same corrupt string whenever needed. It will be justified in some way, e.g. BLS provides more entropy than PoW, so why not and the usual poppycock of 'overpaying for miners'. Says who? The masternodes! They're brilliant, don't you know? 45% will be reduced to 1% in phases as DCG suckage goes up, and ultimately removed when feasible. That'll be it. Total criminal shite on the same level as the taxation scamming governments. The deal is like this. No, wait. It's like this now!.. Hello there, we're changing the deal again!! Ding dong, it's the masternodes again!! We're going to just go ahead and take it all! That's right, bitches! All of it, including DCG's take. DCG can fuck off. It makes perfect sense to those who are blinded with greed. Soon after Dash will be deader than dead and they just won't get it.
Would you point to some background or more info re: "...the major service availability exploit (old qfcommit replay attack) that went unnoticed for 6 versions."

If there was an issue it speaks to your suggestion for more thorough and continuous review/audit of all those lines of code.
 
I just cried you a river reading these posts about your horrible hardship and injustices suffered and then I got to this!

He went out and defended the project and I bought more. Lots more. F for going insane on Darkcoin back in 2014 and 2015. It was just fucking awesome.

So, you're the guy that bought Dash in the period 2014 through to 2015 when it was trading for average price of $3.50, you rode it to $1600 in December 2017, selling masternode rewards as you went which paid for your original tiny investment in Dash and now you are still sitting on bags 10x greater than their purchase price, which is now completely house money, and we are supposed to feel sorry for you? What cry baby you are!

DASHUSDT_2023-07-23_01-36-27.png




But first, let's back up. In your posts you take care to throw venom at everyone you can think of, in particular you like to blame the current DCG administration for the faults of the previous admins, all of whom have been rightful moved on for betraying the network, if we are to be critical of DCG, we need to at least break it up by the eras and asses each based on the people involved at the time. Quantum Explorer (QE) has improved things dramatically in DCG regarding the delivery of Evolution, he has made some excellent hires replacing some of the weaker devs, he has re-engineered the architecture from the jank javascript bull crap (thanks Andy) to a more robust Rust based arch, he ditched 3 inconsistent databases (mongoDB) for one consistent DB, GroveDB that has built in proofs and not only is essential for Platform, but moves forward the Computer Science industry by inventing a new database type entirely. https://www.grovedb.org/ He created the consensus engine for Platform (Evolution) based on Tendermint, now forked into Tenderdash. Previously, there was no consensus in Platform back in the Ryan and Andy days, basically he has closed so many loops and solved so many challenges, he is getting amazing work done with his team.

Of course you know all this, but wilfully choose to gloss over it, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Boo Hoo ! Now has there been scope creep again into Evo, absolutely, it can be justified, but sure, it means that we've again pivoted from MVP - just user names, to something far more useful, refer to the Dashmoney dapps and how flexible the Platform already on testnet is. https://www.dash.org/forum/index.php?threads/checking-out-some-dash-dapps-by-dashmoney-👀.53906/

You spray some venom at https://crowdnode.io/ Crowdnode is offering a fantastic service to the network and closing the gap for partial ownership of a masternode for those that can't afford $33k for one, or don't want to have that much exposure, for balances under 100 Dash, only a trusted version of the service exists (they hold your coins), for balances in chunks of 100 Dash, you can join a trustless masternode where you control the keys, this is the optimal solution. However, note that during the time it takes to establish the entire masternode, the Dash is in custody of Crowdnode as they are the trusted party in the signing process to make sure all participants are honest. Please educate yourself on the offering before spreading misinformation.

One thing I will give you credit for is the network's softness on privacy, there is no such thing as digital cash without privacy and I am continuously dismayed by the network, both DCG and MNOs alike not doing more in this regard. It seems the network is fearful of repercussions and honestly, those will come whether we double down on privacy or not because we will always be branded as a privacy coin, so we may as well fully embrace it and take market share from other successful privacy coins! Focusing more on privacy can only help Dash, not harm it, there is a lot of interest for privacy coins in this market and Dash is missing out on that interest because the optics are that we are not world class, it's a pity, because our built-in mixing is state of the art and untraceable when when a few simply rules are routinely followed. https://www.dash.org/forum/index.php?threads/dash-coinjoin-mixing-guide-and-best-practices.51655/

Eventually you get to the point of this thread and miss it entirely pissing all over yourself like the useless cuck you are

Dash Control Group and the low IQ minions really do not care about the miners. They're going to kill off Proof of Work entirely as soon as they can and a majority of MNOs will support it, cause they'll get a larger share too of course. That's exactly how corruption works. Two fuckers decide to "legitimately" take (steal) from a third. They won't even know or care what miners think. They've already proven this. So there's no denying this. Once you show you're unethical, basically corrupt, you will just keep pulling the same corrupt string whenever needed. It will be justified in some way, e.g. BLS provides more entropy than PoW, so why not and the usual poppycock of 'overpaying for miners'. Says who? The masternodes!

Sadly, a lot of Masternodes owner share you view here, rather focusing on what it is fair and just - socialists, than focusing on capital expenditure and waste of resources - capitalists. This conversation isn't about being fair, or a nice guy, this conversation is simply, are the rewards paid to the miners are good investment for this network? Are we getting back more value from the security they offer us than we spend on them? Can we spend less on hashrate (electricity) and still get the same level of security from our miners. It has nothing to do with looking after our mates, or making sure their bellies are full, that's not how you run a business and this block chain like all others has a set of economics that need to be balanced if were going to keep any value in this network at all. Currently, with the advent of ChainLocks and some other changes, our reliance on miners solely for security has decreased, so too should what we pay them.


You also, make an appeal to a higher authority.

I would advise external consulting on Dash's economics to evaluate the correlation between Dash's specific design and horrible market performance, despite its self-proclaimed superior features. Dash MNOs increased their share after Ryan's delusional slide deck to improve Dash's economics and the chart today reflects that performance is even worse. So are we going to discuss the reversal of that decision? Cause the flawed theory didn't work out and suggests the opposite might be true

The simple answer to this question is that the re-allocation that Ryan negotiated with the miners did not go far enough and worse just before the first re-allocation happened, Binance spun up 270 masternodes from customer's money and totally negated any benefit from the re-allocation, pushing the APY down and stifling any yield FOMO we may have seen from the improvement in the tokenomics, this coupled with a few OG morons, eg Toknormal and AFBitcoins aka DashAF selling on principle and misguided sense of fairness and economics negated any positive effect.

https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/docs/user/introduction/features.html#block-reward-allocation

You praise Evan for promoting the project and I agree an Evangelist founder is super helpful, Vitalik, Charles hoskinson , Brad Garlinghouse, Richard Heart, Adam Back, all these people help massively pump their coins by building a community of fanatics around them and building trust in themselves and the network they barrack for, we could do with someone like that, we had Evan back in the day and Amanda, but the point is it doesn't have to come from DCG, a good example of that is Michael Saylor, a nobody previously, buys a bag and becomes the top shill over night. Who in DCG would you have going on the circuit? So far only QE is half way presentable and he is also the CTO and top coder in the org, so are we going to work on delivery or talk about it and make more empty promises like the previous mob did and deliver fuck all? and by the way, Evan left the project when he realised he couldn't deliver on his promises, so I laugh at how you give him a free-pass when a lot of this mess is entirely of his own making.

Anyway, your moronic rant continues, my eyes are bleeding at this point, you didn't make a 1000x, but you haven't lost any money either, you're still mad as hell, you expect profit from the work of others, you are good at giving orders to others as to what they should do or have done, but never once do you mention, what the actual fuck did you do for this network? What effort did you put in to build this community, foster adoptions, evangelise on socials, find investors, incubate integrations, fund initiatives from your own massive stash of free coins, etc etc. What the actual fuck did you do for Dash? The answer is of course nothing and so you reap what you sow. All you ever did was buy a few masternodes in 2015 at $3.50 a coin, watch them make you a millionaire several times over, get stupidly greedy to not sell (assuming, that's why you're still here) and then watch it all come back down to just 10x your entry.

Finally.

NEW DCG TEAM OBJECTIVE:

Price appreciation towards $100 at least by EOY. This is the target for the executive. Not a gazillion lines of vaporcode. Get out there and promote Dash. Thank you very much!
Not a security, DCG owes you NOTHING and they are not going to pump your bags so you can exit. Dump here, dump now, the market won't move up while your ballast holds us back, please offload and leave, take your fucking venom and entitlement with you, Dash will be the better for it.
 
So what is the plan? We don't increase the budget and don't take any other actions?
We can't simply put our heads into sand and think the problem goes away!
If people are used to get paid and there is no money what happens with maintenance and bugs?
What if the chain halts again?
We need a plan fast.

Can't we still have a selected few people on maintenance while deciding on the next chapter?
I tried to ask people in Discord->thunderdome about a meeting to talk this out but didn't seem anyone was all to interested. Do we need to hit rock bottom before people wake up? It will be much harder to get back up again just so you know!

I still hope we can start being transparent and create a list of all our expenses! Don't need to have names but atleast roles + salary, all the cost involving servers, licenses, tools and whatnot.

Next we have to talk about the
- Governance
- How we run future projects and payout (maybe something similar to how Rion and team do it. Pay is tied to delivery!)
- Status updates
- Roles and responsibilities in the new org
- Creating a roadmap we believe and commit to
etc etc ....

Would be great to have 2-3 days dedicated for this work.
Also Who can give the numbers for today's cost?
 
So what is the plan? We don't increase the budget and don't take any other actions?
We can't simply put our heads into sand and think the problem goes away!
If people are used to get paid and there is no money what happens with maintenance and bugs?
What if the chain halts again?
We need a plan fast.

Can't we still have a selected few people on maintenance while deciding on the next chapter?
I tried to ask people in Discord->thunderdome about a meeting to talk this out but didn't seem anyone was all to interested. Do we need to hit rock bottom before people wake up? It will be much harder to get back up again just so you know!

I still hope we can start being transparent and create a list of all our expenses! Don't need to have names but atleast roles + salary, all the cost involving servers, licenses, tools and whatnot.

Next we have to talk about the
- Governance
- How we run future projects and payout (maybe something similar to how Rion and team do it. Pay is tied to delivery!)
- Status updates
- Roles and responsibilities in the new org
- Creating a roadmap we believe and commit to
etc etc ....

Would be great to have 2-3 days dedicated for this work.
Also Who can give the numbers for today's cost?
Support my proposal, it will cure the apathy you are fighting against, bringing MNOs to join the discussion, and likely new ideas and more support for improvements. As you know the project is dying under the status quo. My proposal is a simple, safe, yet effective improvement.

 
Support my proposal, it will cure the apathy you are fighting against, bringing MNOs to join the discussion, and likely new ideas and more support for improvements. As you know the project is dying under the status quo. My proposal is a simple, safe, yet effective improvement.


Support your proposal? Where is the code forro? Where is the code?
 
Forro doesn't have to provide code. That's DCG's job. If his proposal actually passes, DCG will research and then implement the suggested change, unless it turns out to be completely unfeasible.
 
I tried to ask people in Discord->thunderdome about a meeting to talk this out but didn't seem anyone was all to interested.
Maybe you didn't see this yet? It was proposed right after that thunderdome talk.
 
Forro doesn't have to provide code. That's DCG's job. If his proposal actually passes, DCG will research and then implement the suggested change, unless it turns out to be completely unfeasible.

Do you understand the stupidity you have just said?

You should not form a governance question demanding for something new to happen, because your brand new phantasy may be proved very difficult, very costly or even impossible to be coded. Also suppose your proposal barely passes the required 10% net votes and it is approved. Does this makes it stronger than the status quo? The proponents of the status quo may claim that the status quo is supported by a silent majority of much more than 10%, and you cannot prove them wrong.

So If you want a change to occur, initially you should form a governance question ASKING THE MASTERNODES TO CONFIRM THE STATUS QUO.

That way you expose the Dash status quo, which has NEVER been voted. The Dash status quo has been decided by agents having in their mind that their red lines should never been passed.

Steps for a decent governance proposal that may lead to a change.

1) You put a governance question asking the voters to confirm the status quo.
2) If the status quo is not confirmed, obviously a change is needed, so you search someone to fund and/or to code the change.
3) After coding the change, you put into vote your governance proposal along with the required code.

1) You put a governance question asking the voters to confirm the status quo.

When I say "put a governance question asking the voters to confirm the status quo" I obviously mean that this question should last long (at least 24 months, if not permanent). So that the supporters of the status quo do not have the excuse that they did not have time to vote. They should not be able to claim that the status quo issue did not reach the required minimum participation due to a limited voting period.
 
Last edited:
So what is the plan?
If people are used to get paid and there is no money what happens with maintenance and bugs?
What if the chain halts again?
We need a plan fast.
I agree, the network needs some clarity around this. Based on my discussions with community members and the polls in the recent DAO cycles, the community is unwilling to shift more funds into DCG, therefore, I think DCG needs to provide a plan for a power down to standby mode where maybe 2-3 core devs are retained to work on CVE as they arise until the org has collected enough funds to start up again.
 
Support my proposal, it will cure the apathy you are fighting against, bringing MNOs to join the discussion, and likely new ideas and more support for improvements. As you know the project is dying under the status quo. My proposal is a simple, safe, yet effective improvement.

Sorry i just don't get your idea and how that would improve anything. I will create other problems and abuse in my view.
 
I agree, the network needs some clarity around this. Based on my discussions with community members and the polls in the recent DAO cycles, the community is unwilling to shift more funds into DCG, therefore, I think DCG needs to provide a plan for a power down to standby mode where maybe 2-3 core devs are retained to work on CVE as they arise until the org has collected enough funds to start up again.
Yes that would be a wise thing to do.
Question is then who/when/how we can meet and discuss the next chapter!?
It would need 2-3 or maybe a week for some proper brainstorming and talk around governance and strategy.
I'm not sure who does what exactly but people who leading like Sam, Rion and you guys who are more senior should maybe make a list of people who want to participate and we can then look into what days we start meeting. I can join if you want me. Either way its good to starting a list of participants.....
 
I'm not sure who does what exactly but people who leading like Sam, Rion and you guys who are more senior should maybe make a list of people who want to participate and we can then look into what days we start meeting
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
The sad reality is that if there is no will from DCG then the network won't consider it important.

@Pete - DashCrypto, @amanda_b_johnson, and I are trying to plan something, but nobody in DCG seems interested to attend, or even discuss it other than to say Utah is too far. We made it clear in our initial post that people don't need to come to Utah. DCG could host a different location closer to their devs, but they likely won't because they're all busy working on Evo (like the past 5+ years).
 
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
The sad reality is that if there is no will from DCG then the network won't consider it important.

@Pete - DashCrypto, @amanda_b_johnson, and I are trying to plan something, but nobody in DCG seems interested to attend, or even discuss it other than to say Utah is too far. We made it clear in our initial post that people don't need to come to Utah. DCG could host a different location closer to their devs, but they likely won't because they're all busy working on Evo (like the past 5+ years).
Struggling against the apathy that has taken over the community? Finding the community has no will for action or significant change?

Support my proposal, which is a simple, safe step in the right direction. Do the right thing and support it, @rion and others.


Further changes can be discussed once my proposal brings new members and their energy to the discussion.
 
I do support your proposal.
Then use your clout and presence on the various platforms to make that clear to the rest of the community. Help support it in the discussions here, discord, reddit, dashcentral, etc. Help me get through to those who somehow still can't see how or why it would work. Obviously it's not a cure-all for all of Dash's ills, but it's a safe step that moves things in the right direction, rather than continuing to do nothing.

If this proposal passes newly active MNOs will come, bringing their ideas and energy with them.
 
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
The sad reality is that if there is no will from DCG then the network won't consider it important.

@Pete - DashCrypto, @amanda_b_johnson, and I are trying to plan something, but nobody in DCG seems interested to attend, or even discuss it other than to say Utah is too far. We made it clear in our initial post that people don't need to come to Utah. DCG could host a different location closer to their devs, but they likely won't because they're all busy working on Evo (like the past 5+ years).
Being total honest and open its a lame excuse to not attend a meeting. Hell you guys can even allocate a week to spend it on Teams meeting using Miro or meet half way.
In the grand scheme of things what is 1 week?
I see teams like Firo or even Pivx do amazing work with a handful of devs which are all over the place! Hell my own team is in India, and all over the place and we manage to meet.

Either way once the funds end we can see who is in it for the right reasons. I'm sure we can even find devs outside of DCG. Its not like there is no one out there who can code. Will it hurt? sure but we can do it. Some People tend to think they are replaceable and i learn it the hard way that anyone can be replaced. Change hurts but sometime it is necessary.
 
Then use your clout and presence on the various platforms to make that clear to the rest of the community. Help support it in the discussions here, discord, reddit, dashcentral, etc. Help me get through to those who somehow still can't see how or why it would work. Obviously it's not a cure-all for all of Dash's ills, but it's a safe step that moves things in the right direction, rather than continuing to do nothing.

If this proposal passes newly active MNOs will come, bringing their ideas and energy with them.
If there are other big names reading this and haven't made it known they support it, you are part of the problem. Voice your support, help bring this project back to life. Help me to help dash!
 
Struggling against the apathy that has taken over the community? Finding the community has no will for action or significant change?

Support my proposal, which is a simple, safe step in the right direction. Do the right thing and support it, @rion and others.


Further changes can be discussed once my proposal brings new members and their energy to the discussion.
I want to see significant change but i didn't understood what the proposal will achieve actually. Maybe its my english....
I put a question in the thread
So who is to decide what is a poorly crafted or ineffective proposal? this is very tricky and can be abused for sure.
I don't get the benefit to be honest.


Maybe i simply misunderstand your point. If Rion supports it i'm sure its good.
 
Back
Top