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Decision Proposal: Increase Proposal System Flexibility & Efficiency

The text says: "only one may be implemented". That just means that either of the two, but not both. In addition, it's possible for neither to be implemented. See the Process section for details.


The MNO Plan actually puts MNs in a position to grant themselves less income (44%) if they fund the full 20% to proposals. The motivation for both of these proposals is stated clearly. Whether you believe it is up to you I suppose. The MNOs sponsoring the proposal are given in the proposal text. We simply wanted to give all MNOs a second option, rather than DCG's one option. I agree that very few people if any will get exactly what they want, but we wanted to at least double the options.

It's appears to double the options but it doesn't, not on the most significant and imo dangerous point. As things are MNs are rewarded for voting in the best interests of the whole network, they only get the benefits if every Dash user gets the benefits. Both of these proposals allow MNs to put personal gain ahead of the networks best interests and I can't understand how that can be considered a step forward, the risk seems far greater than any potential reward.

It also sets a precedent for submitted proposals. So far rewarding MNs directly has been unanimously rejected, Charlie Shrem suggested paying part of the company profits directly to MNs in his proposal and that aspect was shot down in flames but these changes would encourage exactly that, "reject my proposal and you'll get the amount I'm asking, accept my proposal and I'll pay you more". That's no different to buying votes and we can't just dismiss it with "that will never happen", it's already happened and it will happen again. The aim of these changes is to improve the quality of approved proposals but the result could be emptier promises.

If you want to improve the quality of accepted proposals then address that point directly, not indirectly with a major change that could do far more harm than good. This isn't a new problem, it's existed almost as long commerce has existed and so have ways of addressing it. Paying 50% up front and 50% on completion is one example, a second vote to approve final payment is a far less drastic change and cuts the problem in half, if a proposal fails to deliver it only gets half the payment.

That's just one example and it was already mentioned in the original discussion on how governance should be implemented, the fact that thread hasn't been resurrected during the discussion on these changes should be enough to make it clear they haven't been given enough consideration. The governance system was implemented in its most basic form, keep it simple. That thread already has countless points for tweaks and fine tuning with the benefit of the hindsight we now have. We're in no position to make such major changes to the governance system without going over the points covered in its original design:
 
I feel like a lot of different views from masternode operators on how to change our budget system are only now coming to the surface. I feel the reason why they only now come to the surface, is because we were missing out on the specifics of each decision proposal.

This shows to me that skipping the pre-discussion phase, where the specifics of each decision proposal could have been discussed and the Dash community could have been informed in advance about these specifics, in the end undermined the communication with the Dash community.

I don't agree with Ryan Taylor that the discussions that are taking place now, during a time the two decision proposals are already launched and active on our network, can somehow serve as pre-discussion.
 
What I don't understand is why did the MNOs who fashioned this alternate plan not discuss this initiative anywhere? Why was it done in secret? The first I heard of it was when both proposals were published.
 
Both of these proposals allow MNs to put personal gain ahead of the networks best interests and I can't understand how that can be considered a step forward, the risk seems far greater than any potential reward.
I understand and appreciate your point of view on this. One angle of looking at it is that the MNOs could enrich themselves with "personal gain" by rejecting good proposals, just as you said. Another angle is that by introducing an incentive to not spend, MNOs are less likely to fully spend a treasury that they may not think of as having a real cost. Both risks exist. To make the best decision, one needs to consider both behaviors are potentially real.

Given the MNOs must have 1,000 Dash collateral, I believe it is unlikely they would starve good projects for a short-term gain. Killing off the projects supporting Dash would clearly jeopardize the value of their collateral. The DCG plan limits the size of the "reward" or "approval penalty" (depending on your point of view) resulting from the approval of a proposal to protect against MNOs becoming stingy to the point that they damage the network's future. We want enough incentives to cause MNOs to think before hitting the "yes" button (especially if the proposal system expands), but not so much that the ecosystem surrounding Dash is killed. Hope that clarifies.
 
What I don't understand is why did the MNOs who fashioned this alternate plan not discuss this initiative anywhere? Why was it done in secret? The first I heard of it was when both proposals were published.

This was literally the first time when i heard about it :

www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/jgvph2/mno_incentives/

and

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/mno-incentives.50836/#post-223867 (see comment xkcd)

That was on the 24th of October 2020, very recent. In a pre-discussion thread of forro68 about MNO Incentives. Really caught me off guard.
The DashPay Reddit thread has more details behind the 'secrecy'.

In the end (after launch on the network) it turned out the MNO Plan had very little to do with forro68 pre-discussion thread. forro68 was just discussing the leftover budget, not an increase in budget to 20%.

I think it even disrupted the pre-discussion on just the leftover budget, to a degree.
 
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If you want to improve the quality of accepted proposals then address that point directly, not indirectly with a major change that could do far more harm than good. This isn't a new problem, it's existed almost as long commerce has existed and so have ways of addressing it. Paying 50% up front and 50% on completion is one example, a second vote to approve final payment is a far less drastic change and cuts the problem in half, if a proposal fails to deliver it only gets half the payment.

That's just one example and it was already mentioned in the original discussion on how governance should be implemented, the fact that thread hasn't been resurrected during the discussion on these changes should be enough to make it clear they haven't been given enough consideration.
To be clear, there is nothing about this proposed change that would prevent other ideas like the one you raise from being implemented. We do plan to continue having a small share of development devoted to governance improvements. Our governance works fairly well, but it is far from perfect.

I agree with you that some kind of built-in escrow or staging of payments would be a great feature to add. This could potentially be done using P2SH in combination with masternode quorums and a payment release voting mechanism. It would require a major effort in terms of the share of a major release it would require.

We have something like this on our own backlog of potential improvements. I do think this would be relatively highly ranked for work after the current set of improvements we have already slated for the next couple of major releases.
 
If at some point one of these proposals is the clear winner, I hope that the proponents of the loser switch their votes so that we can pass one of these proposals this cycle. I am anxious to get to the next governance change discussion, which involves masternode voting.
 
I'm wondering if perhaps we should consider making the maximum a round number of exactly 19 million. Doing that might have several benefits, such as making explanations and calculations easy for newbs to understand. Would this even be possible, and would it make sense to consider?

I think that's a good idea for a future proposal. The market favors simplicity, and it's certainly possible.

The "MNO Decision Proposal", which assumes 36% is always correct for miners, recommends paying the entirety of remaining block reward funds to masternodes. So... do they claim that 36% is exactly the optimal minimum fixed amount that always needs to be spent on mining to ensure satisfactory security without overspending, regardless of Dash's price movements? Or... do they worry that if it were to be a lower portion going to miners, then maybe miners would react by refusing to implement these changes quickly, and might even hold the network hostage by delaying? It would not be in miners' interests to do that because stalling would only diminish the value of the Dash they are mining. Is this a factor?

So I ask, why would we ever pay more than the minimum necessary for satisfactory security? Is exactly 36%, 32%, or a fluctuating amount needed? Is it subjective, or can we agree upon a calculated amount?

MNO Plan advocates aren't assuming 36% is exactly optimal. It was a compromise based on several constraints and considerations:
  1. We needed to respect the recently-approved reallocation proposal, which meant making the 2025 end-state value between 32% and 40%.
  2. Many of us felt that 32% was optimal within that constraint since DCG's engineers implicitly acknowledged that it provided (more than) enough security.
  3. We recognized that some people (including miners themselves) would think that 32% would be "unfair" to miners, some wanting miners to get 40%.
So ultimately 36% was our balanced middle ground. The 36% miner allocation can be changed down the road. This would be very straight-forward for the MNO Plan after the 4.5 year transition period, possibly as simply as changing one constant in the code.

We recommend a fixed mining allocation (with respect to proposals) because security needs do not change from month to month. A variable mining allocation neither increases network security, nor is it economically sound. It might be attractive to large mining pool operators who find it in their interest to outcompete their slower-moving and less savvy competition, but that doesn't make our network more secure; it probably yields lower mining security because it could increase mining centralization, and as stated in section 4.1 of the MNO proposal, it certainly reduces overall security by reducing non-mining security.

I'm assuming the rest of your comments and questions were directed at DCG (if not, please restate it). I appreciated your thoughtful post. Thanks for giving us a chance to clarify the MNO Plan.
 
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If anyone wants to see this as a proposal, hit Like.
I don't personally agree with your whole statement there, but I support having more options. There are two challenges though:
  1. You need DCG to agree to implement it if it passed (like they have explicitly done for the MNO Plan).
  2. It's complex to vote on more than two mutually exclusive options with the system we have.
That's why we (the MNO Plan) did as much work with Ryan/DCG as possible internally, so that we could come up with two options for this very important change that the network could vote on. I realize that the two options still don't give everyone what they want, but I consider it better than what was going to happen (just having one take-it-or-leave-it proposal by DCG). Even two relatively similar options is somewhat tricky, but I support as many options being proposed as MNOs can reasonably evaluate.
 
I understand and appreciate your point of view on this. One angle of looking at it is that the MNOs could enrich themselves with "personal gain" by rejecting good proposals, just as you said. Another angle is that by introducing an incentive to not spend, MNOs are less likely to fully spend a treasury that they may not think of as having a real cost. Both risks exist. To make the best decision, one needs to consider both behaviors are potentially real.
Where did that aspect of the proposals come from, incentivising voting? The more I consider it, the more surprised I am that it's been put forward as it's long been held amongst the community that incentivising voting is extremely difficult (if not impossible). Now it seems almost like it's taken for granted that aspect will be implemented and that's worrying.

Here's a post from the 2015 discussion before governance was implemented, it's pretty much where the serious discussion in the thread begins:
I see where you are coming from, the reason why I don't like this idea is because it provides an incentive to masternode operators to not fund projects, abstain or simply vote no. I feel that would be a weakness of the system, the amount of money we would have to work with as things stand today is not even the budget of a small business. There does not need to be any waste as we could keep a reserve, about having too much funds in the future, well that would only be the result of the success of the initiative, the ecosystem growing, more features, more adoption. In that theoretical situation, we can always make adjustments is a good problem to have. The alternative of being underfunded and people voting no because they have an incentive to keep the rewards would just leave us where we already are. Operators should vote no, because they don't like a proposal, not because they get to keep the money. A system like that would not work in practice, IMHO.

The first point brought up in the thread was distribution percentages, the 45/45/10 we have was pretty much chosen as a ballpark figure that seemed about right. At a later stage Evan suggested dynamic adjustments for those kind of constants, being able to (iirc) adjust things like reward splits, transaction fees, etc. on the fly.

Given the MNOs must have 1,000 Dash collateral, I believe it is unlikely they would starve good projects for a short-term gain. Killing off the projects supporting Dash would clearly jeopardize the value of their collateral. The DCG plan limits the size of the "reward" or "approval penalty" (depending on your point of view) resulting from the approval of a proposal to protect against MNOs becoming stingy to the point that they damage the network's future. We want enough incentives to cause MNOs to think before hitting the "yes" button (especially if the proposal system expands), but not so much that the ecosystem surrounding Dash is killed. Hope that clarifies.

To be clear, there is nothing about this proposed change that would prevent other ideas like the one you raise from being implemented. We do plan to continue having a small share of development devoted to governance improvements. Our governance works fairly well, but it is far from perfect.

I agree with you that some kind of built-in escrow or staging of payments would be a great feature to add. This could potentially be done using P2SH in combination with masternode quorums and a payment release voting mechanism. It would require a major effort in terms of the share of a major release it would require.

We have something like this on our own backlog of potential improvements. I do think this would be relatively highly ranked for work after the current set of improvements we have already slated for the next couple of major releases.

The 50% up front, 50% on completion was only suggested as an example, somewhere here there's at least one long thread on ways to ensure proposals deliver. One of those suggestions was enforceable contracts, early on that wasn't viable but now Dash has a legal standing it's a possible option. Not one I'd favour personally, I'd rather see a simple solution built in code than relying on a multitude of legal systems worldwide but that's still head and shoulders above trying to incentivise voting imo.

I don't believe incentivised voting can work (I'm certain it can't work in the manner suggested) and even if it can it would need very careful testing and at minimum a spork to disable it. If it could be made to work it's potentially a world changing tech, there have been several attempts in the past and none of them are pretty.


EDIT: Things seem to be aiming at a solid figure for total coin emission. So far there's always been some room for variation, it used to vary with hashrate but that's been removed (admittedly it was very confusing) and after this the entire superbock reward would be allocated, total emission would be a fixed figure.

Imo that's giving up a potential major advantage. Should we ever need to adjust total emission we'd be changing a hard and fast figure rather than a ballpark figure with an absolute maximium and I'm pretty much certain we'll need to do just that to be a serious currency.

Printing to infinity has caused major problems, fixed quantity seems like an obvious solution but it isn't, it caused a lot of problems. The ability to print money as needed was a result of those problems, an evolution of money. We know the bad side of that story but we forget the good, that printing at will offered genuine solutions to genuine problems with fixed quantity standards.

If we want to make economic decisions then we need an economic policy as a basis for those decisions. So far no cryptocurrency has that, "there's only 21 million" isn't an economic policy, it's a criteria, something to be built on but if we want to be a serious currency and not just hanging of the coat tails of fiat or a mixed bag of values then we need to plan for it and a fixed quantity may turn out to be a serious hindrance.
 
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I don't personally agree with your whole statement there, but I support having more options. There are two challenges though:
  1. You need DCG to agree to implement it if it passed (like they have explicitly done for the MNO Plan).
  2. It's complex to vote on more than two mutually exclusive options with the system we have.
That's why we (the MNO Plan) did as much work with Ryan/DCG as possible internally, so that we could come up with two options for this very important change that the network could vote on. I realize that the two options still don't give everyone what they want, but I consider it better than what was going to happen (just having one take-it-or-leave-it proposal by DCG). Even two relatively similar options is somewhat tricky, but I support as many options being proposed as MNOs can reasonably evaluate.

It was just a random idea actually.

Tbh, after re-reading the MNO Plan, I gotta say, I think it's the better proposal because it rightly ringfences dash's security, and that is by far the most important thing to do. I've switched my vote to Yes.
 
Rion, thank you for your answers. There are still three parts of my post that you didn't address.

... do they worry that if it were to be a lower portion going to miners, then maybe miners would react by refusing to implement these changes quickly, and might even hold the network hostage by delaying? It would not be in miners' interests to do that because stalling would only diminish the value of the Dash they are mining. Is this a factor?
...
Is miner noncooperation a worry?

I haven't had that question answered yet. If the answer is no, then why do you propose paying more to miners for fairness? Who is worried about that? Isn't mining Dash an opt-in choice made depending on the competitive market for profitability? And that market reacts to the rewards offered, by investing in mining equipment competitively according to those incentives. So the market for mining of Dash is a reaction to network payouts, not an entitlement for fairness, right? I don't understand overpaying a mining reward as if it's a negotiation or a gift or something. Why not optimize our network and then let the mining market react to it?

If a fixed 32% is calculated to be optimal, it doesn't make any sense to me that you are putting forth a proposal of 36%.


It makes sense to align a masternode's incentive cost of approving a proposal [proportionally] with the masternode's share of benefit to the entire network.

Do you agree with this? DCG's proposal does align the incentives correctly and yours does not. Does that matter to you?


But if by [varying MN marginal reward costs at a 3/5ths ratio to align their incentives proportionally to their share of the benefit gained by the network would then result in there being some extra Dash left over block reward], why pay the extra to miners? [Or to masternodes?] Have you considered an alternative plan of aligning incentives appropriately to masternodes, having minimum necessary fixed miner rewards, and then the hypothetical unspent extra Dash not be created?

It could work like this. A calculated fixed minimum necessary amount, for example 36% goes to miners. Then masternodes get a guaranteed 44% plus 3/5ths of whatever is left over from the 20% capped for treasury proposals. (So MNs get between 44% and 56%) And, the remaining extra 2/5ths of unspent treasury just never gets created. (Between 0% and 8% never even gets created, depending on how much of treasury is spent.) This is a bit more complicated, but is it a compromise both sides might consider?

What are your thoughts on that idea? It seems like that would be even more in line with what you are trying to accomplish than your proposal, because fewer Dash would be created when masternodes are frugal in spending the treasury, while keeping MNOs correctly cost-incentivized to make good voting decisions and keeping mining rewards fixed at the minimum necessary.

I'm curious what objections DCG might have to that plan, because the way I understand this, that seems like the optimal way to go. It looks more economically optimal to me than the plan DCG is proposing, assuming there aren't other considerations or worries about paying a fixed minimum necessary reward to miners. It seems like both proposals want to pay miners more than the optimal minimum necessary. Please explain why.
 
I'm curious what objections DCG might have to that plan, because the way I understand this, that seems like the optimal way to go. It looks more economically optimal to me than the plan DCG is proposing, assuming there aren't other considerations or worries about paying a fixed minimum necessary reward to miners. It seems like both proposals want to pay miners more than the optimal minimum necessary. Please explain why.
This is not a terrible solution, and you could even take it a bit further by having the ratio of unspent treasury paid to MNOs vary based on the exact ratio of MN collateral to total supply at the time of the superblock (i.e., the ratio of their benefit), rather than a fixed ratio. What are the reasons not to do that?
1) It would be incredibly difficult to explain to newcomers. For those that care about total supply, we could not give a definitive answer, which always comes across as "fishy".
2) There is always significant "waste" in the mining reward. An approach like this doesn't eliminate that. We believe we could safely operate the network with even 10% allocation, but a successful hard fork would require miner support. You also need to build some buffer well beyond the absolute minimum to maintain a secure network. So 32-40% variable reward is not meaningfully better or worse than a fixed 36% for example. The plus or minus 10% variation just doesn't do much for "efficiency".

There are ways we could do a hard fork without miner support, but it's far more complex than you can imagine, unless we were willing to put user funds at risk. That feels like a line we don't want to cross. Users need to be able to trust the network. There are a ton of wallets running on older devices which lack the hardware specs to upgrade, so even if we coded everything needed at the wallet level to support a MN-force-miners-to-comply approach, it would be really messy. There are a large number of wallets that would follow the miners regardless of ChainLocks.

The short answer is 1) WAY more complicated and time consuming to cut miner rewards much further (in terms of time to develop and get the network upgraded - including natural migration to versions that require users to upgrade their phone hardware... could be years), 2) Benefits in being able to say a definitive future supply, 3) don't want to put user funds at risk, and 4) 32-40% variable reward is not meaningfully better or worse than a fixed 36%, so it's not a good enough reason to pursue.

Keep in mind, this is all subjective and many questions like "how much mining capacity is safe" cannot be nailed down to a specific number.
 
What does the network get from miners for paying them an additional variable amount of leftover treasury? Not more mining. @Ryan Taylor

If we need more miner support, wouldn't it be better to just set the fixed mining block reward appropriately?

Paying miners that extra variable amount introduces a new, more complicated relationship, which may be hard to unwind in the future.

If the masternodes are being paid too much in receiving all of the unused treasury, then it makes more sense to leave the "miner" portion un-created, allowing the whole network to benefit, instead of giving it to miners without any direct purpose.

The only potential benefit to paying the miners the variable amount (assuming that MNOs should not just get it all) is that the total coin supply becomes exactly predictable. But the slight unpredictability of the total coin supply has not been a problem for us so far. Is it really worth the extra complication?
 
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If a fixed 32% is calculated to be optimal, it doesn't make any sense to me that you are putting forth a proposal of 36%.

You may be right that going with a lower mining allocation could have worked as well but we're going side-by-side with the DCG Plan, which is creating a brand new or untested miner incentive plan. The MNO Plan is not overly generous to miners when Dash prices go up nor is it punitive when Dash prices go down for miners. It's a simple fixed allocation which allows miners to calculate their costs/rewards easily through the ups and downs in prices, just like now in terms of predictability. And it is possible to adjust our miner allocation as we go forward for the MNO Plan without it being complicated if the network deems that we can go even lower.
 
Here's a post from the 2015 discussion before governance was implemented, it's pretty much where the serious discussion in the thread begins:

@stan.distortion I've been reading this post to get a better understanding of the historical context. I arrived in Dash shortly after this new system had been implemented, and I see you were a big part of those conversations back then.

The following are a few things I wanted to comment on in my reading so far:

Contractors should be paid after they deliver to full spec, never before, we shouldn't be fronting money to anyone.

I agree with that, and I think it's something we can fix in the future. Andy's project (which I'm part of) will be a testing ground for this, as it's based on bounties (which means getting paid after a clearly defined scope of work or service is provided).

A portion of the future masternode revenue share schedule (beyond 45%) would be held in escrow by the network itself, in the name of the operators, to be executed in the development and expansion of the ecosystem through the vote of the masternodes in different budget proposals. These funds would be directed to supporting development and promotion of the coin, masternode operators would vote on specific budgets and projects to be funded, thus defining the direction the coin is taking. This would be done in a completely transparent way where there is a public portal where new initiatives are proposed and masternodes can vote on them. Something like a decentralized kickstarter or Lighthouse, that can be used for anything that creates value within the ecosystem.

I like that Evan recognized that MNOs would (and should) "define the direction the coin is taking" and that his whole idea with this was to create "something like a decentralized kickstarter or Lighthouse". That's what I think we should aim for as well. In both of those projects people give up a small amount of their own money to fund things collectively. It has the benefits of "public funding", but with the fiscal responsibility/restraint of "private funding". That's what the MNO plan aims for.

Quotes and comments aside? Can you please summarize what part(s) of the MNO plan you find objectionable in just a few bullet points? I can't keep up with much more than that.
 
why do you propose paying more to miners for fairness? ...I don't understand overpaying a mining reward as if it's a negotiation or a gift or something. Why not optimize our network and then let the mining market react to it? If a fixed 32% is calculated to be optimal, it doesn't make any sense to me that you are putting forth a proposal of 36%.

Our proposal isn't based on "fairness", it's based on section "4.1 Guiding Principles" and section "4.4 Risk Management". Like DCG, we want to reduce mining allocation as much as possible, which means to that degree where we have 1) ample security and 2) confidence that miners will adopt the change. The latter (2) is the constraint here. Yes, we could have proposed 32%, and many of us (including me) prefer that personally. But our proposal isn't designed for our personal tastes, it's designed for what we think/thought most MNOs will want. I personally encouraged Ryan to make poll questions to get as much information on that as possible, which we included in our proposal. We put forth the best proposal we could with the limited information we had. Ryan's proposal on the other hand, willfully disregarded the information from that poll, which we found unacceptable, hence our proposal.

Do you agree with this? DCG's proposal does align the incentives correctly and yours does not. Does that matter to you?

No, I don't agree with that. Our proposal aligns incentives better from the individual MNO's perspective, rather than using aggregates.

What are your thoughts on that idea? It seems like that would be even more in line with what you are trying to accomplish than your proposal, because fewer Dash would be created when masternodes are frugal in spending the treasury, while keeping MNOs correctly cost-incentivized to make good voting decisions and keeping mining rewards fixed at the minimum necessary.

I would support that option being proposed, but I personally think it's too complex. The market favors simplicity, and in this case I think proposal allocation varying with masternode allocation is the most simple and aligned solution.

It seems like both proposals want to pay miners more than the optimal minimum necessary. Please explain why.

See above.
 
@stan.distortion I've been reading this post to get a better understanding of the historical context. I arrived in Dash shortly after this new system had been implemented, and I see you were a big part of those conversations back then.

The following are a few things I wanted to comment on in my reading so far:



I agree with that, and I think it's something we can fix in the future. Andy's project (which I'm part of) will be a testing ground for this, as it's based on bounties (which means getting paid after a clearly defined scope of work or service is provided).



I like that Evan recognized that MNOs would (and should) "define the direction the coin is taking" and that his whole idea with this was to create "something like a decentralized kickstarter or Lighthouse". That's what I think we should aim for as well. In both of those projects people give up a small amount of their own money to fund things collectively. It has the benefits of "public funding", but with the fiscal responsibility/restraint of "private funding". That's what the MNO plan aims for.

Quotes and comments aside? Can you please summarize what part(s) of the MNO plan you find objectionable in just a few bullet points? I can't keep up with much more than that.

To be honest, I've not dug into them beyond giving unused funds to MNs (& miners). I was 100% against that point, introducing something that can allow personal interest to be put ahead of the networks interest still seems like an unnecessary potential danger but I'm re-reading that thread again at the mo (almost done, phew!) and the same point was frequently argued over back then too.

@Minotaur probably had the strongest arguments against but it's hard to refute the for side, the only point I'd add that isn't mentioned is, if incentivised voting could be beneficial why don't we see it being used? Maybe it is, maybe it's never been tried or caught on, maybe it's been tried and the results have been terrible... idk.

Research into that might have a clear answer, we might avoid an obvious train wreck or maybe find a huge untapped resource and pull yet another rabbit out of the hat. It still seems like throwing potential chaos into a solid foundation of order but Dash shouldn't be afraid to innovate and the latter of those possibilities is the kind of thing Dash was built on.

I still think it's potentially extremely dangerous, it's a much bigger change than it looks and could lead to a lot of further tweaking, a spork killswitch would be essential imo.


I'll read through the proposals fully later on, moving to a guaranteed fixed emission is a big concern but my reasoning behind that is a tough one to sell and it's something that could be changed later if there was a no-brainer reason for doing so.

Some of the discussions on scaling, handling lots of proposals (and MNOs time on rating them) was interesting in that thread, as where many of the points on funding trashy proposals. Somewhere there's a very good thread on the later, haven't been able to find it yet but if I do I'll link to it here.

EDIT: Forgot another point from the DGBB thread, there was some concern that the percentage of funds going to the budget would only ever go up. I don't think that's a major concern, there's an incentive to reduce the percentage (increases the percentage for miners/MNs) but this is the first time the budget percentage has been raised so it's probably worth bringing up.
 
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if incentivized voting could be beneficial why don't we see it being used?

Incentivized voting is used all the time, it's just that we don't call it that. "Incentivized voting" is just the "free market" - people voting by exchanging their money for things that they like. What we're attempting with Dash is making a new economy where money production and "public goods" funding is part of the free market instead of being done by central banks and governments, respectively. The MNO plan is based on the economic principle of opportunity cost - increasing the opportunity cost of proposals (the DASH an MNO can get for withholding funding) increases the value of funded proposals. We propose to do to public goods funding what we know already works in the free market - i.e. exchanging personal money for goods. The difference here is that the MNO doesn't possess the personal money until he abstains from the purchase, but the principle is the same.

Anyways, I look forward to your thoughts after you read the proposals, and reading the link you mentioned if you can find it.
 
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