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Venezuela: Why NFC could be better than "Evolution" for Granny and Mass Adoption

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DeepBlue, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue Member

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    This post is to discuss the advantages of NFC vs QR codes devices. NFC stands for Near Field Communication these are devices such a plastic card you tap next to a device and payment is taken.

    I will propose that NFC mobile payments using passive devices may be more suitable for mass adoption than Evolution in the short term. An important point to note is that NFC passive device technology is readily available now. We do not need to wait for any more development to take place on Evolution for us to set up an NFC passive device payments POS system.

    I feel we need to introduce NFC passive device POS payment system in Venezuela to encourage rapid mass adoption there.

    NFC passive devices may be better than Evolution for non tech savvy people due to the ease of use (simply tap and go). With the NFC passive device the user does not require a smart phone or in fact any phone and it is extremely simple to use even for a technophobic user. A NFC passive device is affordable for anyone and costs just a few USD for each passive NFC device. There is little to no training required to use an NFC passive device.

    The NFC system proposed would primarily require users to use passive NFC devices. For those who may not be aware an NFC passive device does not require a power source to function. An example of an NFC passive device being used currently is Octopus card in Hong Kong, the contact less plastic card that users tap on a terminal to pay or something similar to the London underground "oyster card" . The passive NFC device derives its energy from the active device when the user touches the NFC active terminal.

    The user charges the card up with DASH by simply touching the card against an DASH enabled NFC active terminal and entering the amount of money they want to add to the device. This could be undertaken in a shop where the retailer has a modified NFC enabled android phone as the active device.

    The following content is reposted from this page:
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...omotion-in-venezuela-and-latin-america.40419/

    For mass adoption we need DASH to be so simple to use that granny can use it without any training.

    Therefore my opinion is that NFC is the way forward for mobile payments in Venezuela and in fact anywhere in the World that wants a simply low tech solution to making payments. My view is NFC is superior to QR for payments in the following respects:

    See this comparison between NFC and QR by google:

    In the Youtube video below fast forward to time code 7:47 onwards where they undertake the comparison between NFC and QR code



    1. NFC is quicker than QR code. See the google above comparing NFC and QR code: The difference is significant. NFC is considerably faster.
    2. NFC passive devices are very cheap e.g. an NFC wristband or card e.g Octopus card (Hong Kong) can be manufactured for around $1 to $2 USD per card this makes a payment system affordable for anyone. No smart phone and in fact no phone of any type is necessary.
    3. NFC requires no training. QR code requires some training to use.
    4. NFC can work in any light conditions QR code needs good light conditions.
    5 NFC is more secure because it has to be in close physical proximity to work and does not require visual identification to register. QR payment code can be easily printed out and stuck over an official QR code.
    6. NFC can be used by a Granny (tap and go) with no training. QR code can be confusing for a new user and they also need to open a specific app in order for it to work.
    7. NFC does not require the user to have a smart phone. QR code user needs to have a smart phone, with a functional camera.
    8. NFC works with a simple tap. QR code focusing is required for it to work as well as a having a smart phone.
    9. NFC on a phone does not require opening a specific App. QR code a specific App first needs to be opened.

    In every respect NFC is more suitable technology than QR code for mobile payments.

    NFC is easier, cheaper, faster and more secure and does not require training to use. The passive NFC devices can make DASH available and accessible to the masses without the need for any training, wallets, or even Evolution. QR codes and DASH wallets needs people to be trained. NFC payment passive device does not. This means that the barrier to entry for the user is considerably lower when we use NFC compared to QR codes.

    In essence NFC = Granny Friendly. We do not need Evolution. NFC is already granny friendly.

    The following is a complete Granny Training Course on how to make payments with DASH using a passive NFC device (e.g. an NFC plastic card loaded with DASH):

    Steps for making a payment:
    "Granny go over and tap your card on the device at that shop. Check the amount is correct on the screen. If if it correct tap yes on the screen" . If it is not click Cancel.

    Well done Granny. You can now make payments with DASH.

    Steps for charging your card
    To charge up your card go to any official charge point shop, hand over your Bolivar to the attendant. Tap your card against the recharge device, make sure the amount shown on the charge point screen is the amount you gave to the attendant, minus the small recharge fee that is shown separately and tap YES if it is or CANCEL if it is not.

    By the way Granny, if you don't feel comfortable going to a authorized charge point I can always charge up your card at any time from my smart phone."

    END OF GRANNY TRAINING


    I believe that an NFC payments system in Venezuela is required to accelerate mass adoption there. Stores can sell NFC wristbands or cards at a low cost and the store keepers could charge up their customer's NFC passive devices using a NFC smart phone with DASH in return for receiving Bolivar currency. In return the store keeper could take a small commission for undertaking the recharge for the customer. A modified Android phone as the NFC active terminal offers retailers a low cost entry to this new NFC payments system. Alternatively existing POS systems could be modified to accept an NFC terminal. Then the retailers could sell low cost DASH enabled payments systems. The NFC passive devices could be plastic cards, key rings or even a wristband. These devices will cost just a few USD for the user making it affordable for anyone to use.

    The best part of all is that we do not need to wait for Evolution release in order for this system to start working. We would simply need a low cost NFC payment system. Some of which we have already sponsored the development of see the link below. The NFC POS system below was designed for making payments at large music events however it can be modified for any retail store.

    https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Dash-NFC-POS

    If the teams in Venezuela could consider integration of an NFC POS into their existing POS and provide low cost DASH enabled plastic payment cards we could make DASH payments simple for anyone to use.

    Here is a demo of an NFC device that DASH treasury has already paid for its development. We could modify this device for a POS for retail use with very little cost:



    With NFC passive devices the frightening tech would disappear into the background and make payments simple for anyone to use with a simple "Tap and Go".
     
    #1 DeepBlue, Dec 16, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  2. toknormal

    toknormal Guest

    "Near Field Communication" ?
     
  3. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Replace "tap" with "point at."
    Eh, if a DashPay DAP wants to do this, fine...

    But I don't see the draw. It offers no benefit over existing pre-paid NFC card thingies... Try the Rabbit card in BKK. Loading that card via DASH might be a boon, but DASH itself as an NFC card... Meh...

    Why does it need to be grannie proof anyway?

    My mom was the most tech incompetent person to ever live. She figured out how to do use the old DASH mobile wallet in about 4 seconds. Bought herself the first ever soda out of the DASH vending machine.

    From the most logical perspective; why? The Older Generation doesn't push for the adoption of anything, ever. They just die doing things the way they always did in their younger years. Once retirement arrives, most relax and get out of the game. It's called retirement for a reason...

    Even if you do grannie-proof it, how long will granny be around to use it?

    How long with the much dumber millennial be around to use it?

    When is the last time a millennial took tech instruction from his/her grandma?

    It doesn't matter how polished and shiny the User Experience is if you can't actually do anything with it.

    If you're looking for systems any moron can use without having to learn anything; that already exists and no form of crypto will ever improve upon it.
     
  4. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    It took me a while to realize he doesn't understand the proper terminology... He's conflating NFC with RFID on a centralized database.

     
  5. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue Member

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    Yes, NFC stands for "near field communication device" I would like to avoid as much as possible jargon words so we can call it "Tap and Pay" or "Tap and Go" payments devices such as the Oyster Card in the London underground or the "Octopus Card" in Hong Kong

    See these videos that demonstrate these Tap and Go cards:





     
  6. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue Member

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    I am specifically referring to NFC technology in this post. I am not referring to RFID or BLE.

    The Octopus Card in Hong Kong uses NFC technology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card (see the Tech used under the summary on the right hand side)

    For anyone who wants to know the difference between NFC and RFID see this video:

     
  7. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue Member

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    I recommend people watch the videos I've posted. You will see more clearly what this technology is about. Unfortunately it is shrouded in geeky terms like "NFC" or "passive devices" etc. If you watch the videos you will see what this tech is about without the jargon.
     
  8. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    NFC is a broad category, a sub-point of which is RFID; which is what you're talking about.

    It's an RFID card which is registered to a database as "you."

    A balance is applied in that same database, and every time card is tapped withing range of a reader, an amount is deducted from the balance in YOUR database line with which that RFID card was associated. Some can do challenge response under inductive power. A few even real encryption. It's just a digital swipe token that has a reasonable possibility of being in your hand when it's used, because it is artificially limited to a low enough value, and used in places with cameras, such that stealing it and using it by another party would be high risk and low payoff. It also bears notice that all circumstances of such use are government/public systems which cannot financially support themselves and depend on tax/welfare money to function. Also, usually public transit, where keeping people moving is of utmost importance, and even a 1/10th second delay is a big deal.

    Do we need to save that 1/10th of a second? Especially when we're waiting for the cashier to ring it all up anyway, or waiting for the pump to fill the tank, or waiting for the subway person to make the sandwitch?

    It's more about the circumstance of it's use than any of the (mis)named technology involved.

    You're talking about changing the circumstance to a model in which stealing and using the card would become viable.

    Not to mention, Credit/Debit Cards already exist, and have a method for recourse. RFID cards, as you've described, basically do the same thing as Credit/Debit Cards, just less secure.

    For those of us choosing to be our own bank, this is a solution in search of a problem, which also creates a problem where one did not previously exist.

    If you had been speaking of proper NFC comms systems, which some, but not all, phones have; it's really no better than QR. While QR retains the more ubiquitous status since not all phones have NFC, but pretty much every phone has a camera and a screen. If I'm going to be my own bank, I prefer a moderately secure phone over a grossly insecure RFID card.

    The risk of theft and misuse is deemed low enough to accept the much lower security of the RFID "tap and pay" card in the environments where it's use is intended and the minor speed enefit is actually worth it. Outside of that environment, it's not such a great idea.

    Why do you think RFID blocking wallets were invented?
     
    #8 camosoul, Dec 16, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  9. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I'm sure you'll be mad because I just say it like it is and that alone is enough to emotionally trigger people these days...

    But:

    It's a bad idea and you're wrong.
     
  10. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue Member

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    I recommend anyone reading this post watch the sample youtube videos I've provided in this thread. You will then see all the information I've given is 100% correct. I am specifically referring to NFC payments as demonstrated in the videos I've posted and not any other technology.

    To be clear RFID is NOT a subset of NFC. But NFC is a subset of RFID. Since I'm referring specifically to NFC only i.e. a small band of radio frequencies all the information I've posted here is correct. Broad bank RFID cannot be used reliably for payments because there is a security risk with this in that a hacker could interfere with the payment since they don't have to be centimetres away from the device like they do with NFC. Therefore for payment systems I am specifically referring to NFC only.
     
    #10 DeepBlue, Dec 16, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  11. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Dude, just create your own DASHPAY-based NFC system! Put in the proposal! Show us how much you believe in yourself and this idea of yours.
     
    #11 camosoul, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  12. T. Heights

    T. Heights New Member

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    nice thought-provoking post. Request to have this guy on 3 amigos to debate NFC vs Evolution!
     
  13. DeepBlue

    DeepBlue Member

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    Reading some of the posts here again it appears there may be some misunderstanding about what I wrote. The DASH card would be used to store only enough DASH for the day's spending. The majority of a users DASH holdings would be stored on a hard wallet for security or on a mobile phone which is kept in a safe place. Then the user could simply top up their DASH Card via NFC from their phone whenever they need it. This would be particularly valuable in Venezuela where there is a high crime rate and anyone with a mobile phone becomes a target. Carrying only enough money for the day on a plastic DASH card is much more secure than carrying DASH on a mobile phone in places like Venezuela. If we could also develop a DASH stable coin to work with our current DASH transaction coin (our current coin) then the user would not even need internet to spend and use their DASH stable on their card because there would be no need to look up the value of DASH in real time. I wrote another article on a DASH stable twin coin here: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/what-dash-needs-to-set-it-above-all-other-cryptos.43036/ The DASH stable coin would increase the value of the DASH transaction coin because more merchants would use DASH once there is guaranteed stability.
     
  14. petarchigo

    petarchigo New Member

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    it is shrouded in geeky terms like "NFC" or "passive devices" etc. If you watch the videos you will see what this tech is about without the jargon.
     
    #14 petarchigo, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  15. CoverSun

    CoverSun New Member

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