Thoughts on Reverse Split or Redenominating DASH

revelations86

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Hey all,

I want to solicit everyone's thoughts on the following issue as well as to open a dialogue regarding potential solutions.

The biggest barrier which I am noticing that is preventing many people from buying DASH is how its current price is reflected. Unfortunately, when making decisions on which crypto to buy, the vast majority of buyers (especially newer ones who have joined in the last couple of months) don't pay attention to the total supply and just look at the price. As a result, they are drawn to cheaply priced cryptos such as IOTA and Ripple which have a supply in the billions. Even when I explain what DASH is all about, the unique POW/POS governance structure, and what it is aiming to achieve, they get all excited about the project but are still dissuaded by the price.

Equally important, even when I explain that from a like-for-like valuation, DASH is actually cheaper to own than an IOTA or Ripple (if it had the same supply), people still can't get passed getting a whole Dash costing them more than $1k. I would hate that people are not getting involved DASH purely because of how the price is coming off which in reality is more psychological.

As I result, I would like to open a dialogue regarding the potential and possibility to do a "reverse split" or look to redenominate DASH into 1/100 or 1/1000 and this will be its singular unit representation.

The main goal for us and a key component of Evolution is to attract mainstream adoption and based on my observation, the above is a barrier with regard to achieing that level of adoption.
 
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tungfa

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this has been discuss many times over
the relation between coin count and price is what people have to learn !
we will not cheat our users into "pretending" to be a cheap coin (moving comma)

if the general public is ready to buy some sh..coin with 86 Billions coins available for 50 cent and think that is cheap - so be it tbh !
do not fall for it - CMC is off the rails these days and will adjust ;)
 

revelations86

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Yes, I do recall that this has been brought up before. The majority of people don't unfortunately notice this aspect (there are even some who argue that circulating supply is not a big deal- which is pretty much denying an economic fact). Only people that have been in this as long as I have fully understand the intertwining between supply and price.

I honestly don't know how else to address this issue.

In the spirit of the simplicity which Evolution is aiming to achieve, is there no other way we can address this?
 

JGCMiner

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@tungfa Well if you are not a fan of the “coin split” then don’t read the last 12hrs or so of posts in Discord. Your head will explode, lol.
 

tungfa

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@tungfa Well if you are not a fan of the “coin split” then don’t read the last 12hrs or so of posts in Discord. Your head will explode, lol.
tx for the heads up !
i better stay out of it then ;)
 

tungfa

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Yes, I do recall that this has been brought up before. The majority of people don't unfortunately notice this aspect (there are even some who argue that circulating supply is not a big deal- which is pretty much denying an economic fact). Only people that have been in this as long as I have fully understand the intertwining between supply and price.

I honestly don't know how else to address this issue.

In the spirit of the simplicity which Evolution is aiming to achieve, is there no other way we can address this?
Evolution has nothing to do with this discussion !

"to address this issue"
what issue ? that people do not understand supply and price ?

Crypto is supposed to be: "trust the code and NOT the bank"
so
if we now 10 fold our coin supply to 'pretend' to be cheaper we are exactly as the shitty bank / Federal Reserve
as you can than not trust the code anymore - as it will look we would do anything to 'sell' our coins ! (change code)
(we would NOT rely on the economy - we would be tweaking the economy / coin supply for our OWN GOOD !!! what are we ? a ponzi scheme ? as bad as the FERDERAL RESERVE ?? come on ..... )
;)
(if this would come through - i quit !)
 
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revelations86

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I don't think this equates with pretending or faking the price. Rather, it clarifies a psychological misconception that unfortunately, the vast majority of people can't easily detect. No extra coins are being created and everyone will have the same exact amount as they did before.

It is just really a modification of perception that makes value more clearer to the average person. Kind of like converting between MPH to KPH or Fahrenheit to Celsius.


I can tell you very much that this is a very real issue for the average person and not because they are being ignorant, but cause they don't know any better. Crypto and blockchain as they are- are complex concepts to explain within themselves.

It takes me several rounds of explaining and whipping out a calculator to show them that Dash is really a bargain compared to these billion dollar coins that have no growth strategy, or no product to show and is still a bargain compared to ETH.

Maybe the solution is explaining this point in marketing materials? But that just confuses people more. The aim is to make DASH simple enough that your grandmother can use it. :)

I didn't know we were also on Discord, what is the link?
 
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tungfa

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I don't think this equates with pretending or faking the price. Rather, it clarifies a psychological misconception that unfortunately, the vast majority of people can't easily detect. No extra coins are being created and everyone will have the same exact amount as they did before.

It is just really a modification of perception that makes value more clearer to the average person. Kind of like converting between MPH to KPH or Fahrenheit to Celsius.


I can tell you very much that this is a very real issue for the average person and not because they are being ignorant, but cause they don't know any better. Crypto and blockchain as they are- are complex concepts to explain within themselves.

It takes me several rounds of explaining and whipping out a calculator to show them that Dash is really a bargain compared to these billion dollar coins that have no growth strategy, or no product to show and is still a bargain compared to ETH.

Maybe the solution is explaining this point in marketing materials? But that just confuses people more. The aim is to make DASH simple enough that your grandmother can use it. :)
New PR Campaign ?:
Please buy us - we are Cheap :rolleyes:
come on .... think about it

Investors are supposed to be investors
hence
they need to do their homework on their investment !
problem in crypto is that most are not investors , they are crypto kiddies dropping their 20 bucks in there to make 200 or 2k
if they can not figure out the math in this (which is really not that hard) i do not know what to do
let them buy the Gazillion coins - CMC is all messed up imo and it will all come back to fundamentals !
wer are dealing in fundamentals - and NOT hype (and cheap shi...)
give it some time - and the blood will be running in rivers out of the new hype coins and we can all relax and go back to work ;)
 
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mage00000

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I understand the problem. People are used to USD, EUR etc. and you always have more than one.
But think of it this way; if we would go back to using gold, would you insist on having 1 Kg and that 0.0001 Kg is impractical?
Would you rather trade using copper or iron, so that you can have full kilo's?
Of course it is impractical in speech, because the listener would have to count the zero's and form a picture of this number in his mind.
That is why we could use gram or mg instead. It is easier to say you need 30 mg of vit. C per day than to say you need 0.00003 Kg.
Still Kg is the unit for weight (unless you are a supporter of queen Elizabeth).
The same thing will happen to dash, I'm sure. Next year you will buy a sports car with 1 dash and a loaf of bread with 10 micro dash or whatever it will be called.
Language will adjust...
 

Efietskop

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Doesn't it come down to a conclusion I've already seen around here, we just need good names for miliDash and microDash. Would a marketing firm like Ogilvy be able to help with that?
 

revelations86

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Tungfa, I fully understand your point and would agree if we are talking about an investment, especially within the context of a large or complex purchase that we are intending to hold over time (i.e. equity, house, etc..). Investment is the operative word. However, the goal of DASH is to go mainstream and operate within the capacity as a payment mechanism rather than an investment offering made to a sophisticated bunch. Therefore, DASH needs to be presented in a way which appeals to the mainstream user and unfortunately, mainstream users don't sit around and factor total supply when transacting, paying, withdrawing or converting from one currency into another. They look at price alone. This is just the reality and if we want to appeal and gain mainstream adopters, we must confirm to this reality. It is not deception. Why did we hire a marketing firm to begin with? To present a product in the most suitable light and create awareness among the public. I would therefore argue that denominating in mDash is the right approach to achieve this goal as another user suggested here.
 

yocko

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Tungfa, I fully understand your point and would agree if we are talking about an investment, especially within the context of a large or complex purchase that we are intending to hold over time (i.e. equity, house, etc..). Investment is the operative word. However, the goal of DASH is to go mainstream and operate within the capacity as a payment mechanism rather than an investment offering made to a sophisticated bunch. Therefore, DASH needs to be presented in a way which appeals to the mainstream user and unfortunately, mainstream users don't sit around and factor total supply when transacting, paying, withdrawing or converting from one currency into another. They look at price alone. This is just the reality and if we want to appeal and gain mainstream adopters, we must confirm to this reality. It is not deception. Why did we hire a marketing firm to begin with? To present a product in the most suitable light and create awareness among the public. I would therefore argue that denominating in mDash is the right approach to achieve this goal as another user suggested here.
In my opinion if you split the supply to draw more speculators you are way off track as to what the whole project is about. It is not about an investment at all its about a creating a superior payment network. If we chase all these people who are buying the next cheap coin we actually achieve nothing of the main goal, all this does is creates instability as people flock in to DASH because its "cheap" then flock out to the next "cheap" crypto when DASH goes up from the inrush. Speculators are not using DASH day to day so how are they going to bring DASH to mass adoption?
Lets not create a bubble, let's try and get DASH being used so you can buy things with it! If everyone put some effort in and helped a friend or someone they know integrate DASH into their business we would be heading towards mass adoption.
A simple fiat conversion tool in all wallets would be far better than splitting DASH.
 
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revelations86

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Yocko, thank you for your comment. I do apologize as there seems to be a misunderstanding. When we are advocating for a redenomination, we are not doing so in order to convince people to buy DASH because it is cheap. Obviously not. When I talk about DASH to people, I discuss the potential of the project, what it aims to achieve with regard to a seamless and simple to use mobile payment platform better than a Square or Venmo, with integration from merchants and a sprinkle of Facebook messenger like capability to add a cherry on top :) I also discuss the numerous partnerships which DASH has formed (a key strength of DASH vs other crypto). This is when I hear the "but it's $1k, I can buy Ripple for $2 etc..). This is an unjustified psychological barrier we are looking to eliminate, not to create a selling point.

Hence, the redenomination is a marketing proposal much like the rebranding from Darkcoin to DASH. This is to make DASH more presentable to the mainstream which is what the goal of the project is, mainstream adoption. Remember, I keep making the distinction between looking at DASH as a fixed "investment" vs. a liquid "payment currency" we want everyone to use. Those are 2 different audiences which require different methods of presentation. For example, if we are discussing the purchase of DASH to host a masternode, this is an investment conversation where we are discussing valuation and time it takes for ROI and what the ROI is. However, when we discuss DASH as a means to pay your bills, a currency you can use globally, this is a currency based conversation. When I exchange USD for EURO, I do not think of it as an investment, but as a means of obtaining a currency that I can use when I travel to Europe.

I hope this makes what I am advocating for more clearer. :)
 

bhkien

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Yocko, thank you for your comment. I do apologize as there seems to be a misunderstanding. When we are advocating for a redenomination, we are not doing so in order to convince people to buy DASH because it is cheap. Obviously not. When I talk about DASH to people, I discuss the potential of the project, what it aims to achieve with regard to a seamless and simple to use mobile payment platform better than a Square or Venmo, with integration from merchants and a sprinkle of Facebook messenger like capability to add a cherry on top :) I also discuss the numerous partnerships which DASH has formed (a key strength of DASH vs other crypto). This is when I hear the "but it's $1k, I can buy Ripple for $2 etc..). This is an unjustified psychological barrier we are looking to eliminate, not to create a selling point.

Hence, the redenomination is a marketing proposal much like the rebranding from Darkcoin to DASH. This is to make DASH more presentable to the mainstream which is what the goal of the project is, mainstream adoption. Remember, I keep making the distinction between looking at DASH as a fixed "investment" vs. a liquid "payment currency" we want everyone to use. Those are 2 different audiences which require different methods of presentation. For example, if we are discussing the purchase of DASH to host a masternode, this is an investment conversation where we are discussing valuation and time it takes for ROI and what the ROI is. However, when we discuss DASH as a means to pay your bills, a currency you can use globally, this is a currency based conversation. When I exchange USD for EURO, I do not think of it as an investment, but as a means of obtaining a currency that I can use when I travel to Europe.

I hope this makes what I am advocating for more clearer. :)
Let's focus in one kind of our target audiences and make them satisfy and don't worry about the rest.
 

yocko

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Yocko, thank you for your comment. I do apologize as there seems to be a misunderstanding. When we are advocating for a redenomination, we are not doing so in order to convince people to buy DASH because it is cheap. Obviously not. When I talk about DASH to people, I discuss the potential of the project, what it aims to achieve with regard to a seamless and simple to use mobile payment platform better than a Square or Venmo, with integration from merchants and a sprinkle of Facebook messenger like capability to add a cherry on top :) I also discuss the numerous partnerships which DASH has formed (a key strength of DASH vs other crypto). This is when I hear the "but it's $1k, I can buy Ripple for $2 etc..). This is an unjustified psychological barrier we are looking to eliminate, not to create a selling point.

Hence, the redenomination is a marketing proposal much like the rebranding from Darkcoin to DASH. This is to make DASH more presentable to the mainstream which is what the goal of the project is, mainstream adoption. Remember, I keep making the distinction between looking at DASH as a fixed "investment" vs. a liquid "payment currency" we want everyone to use. Those are 2 different audiences which require different methods of presentation. For example, if we are discussing the purchase of DASH to host a masternode, this is an investment conversation where we are discussing valuation and time it takes for ROI and what the ROI is. However, when we discuss DASH as a means to pay your bills, a currency you can use globally, this is a currency based conversation. When I exchange USD for EURO, I do not think of it as an investment, but as a means of obtaining a currency that I can use when I travel to Europe.

I hope this makes what I am advocating for more clearer. :)
Yes I understand the logic of what your proposing and it does have credibility to it however I still strongly disagree.
If you are having issues with getting this across to people you could explain it as a price in DASH Dollars 0.001? Would this not solve your entire issue? Maybe we should be working on a "good" name for lower denominations?
 

yocko

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Let's focus in one kind of our target audiences and make them satisfy and don't worry about the rest.
Our best shot IMO is not to try and target people and sell the product, let's target business and have DASH usable rather than having heaps of users with no place to use it.
When I am back from holidays I am going to spend the next 12 months trying to get DASH integrated in all the business I know owners of in Australia.
If people can spend DASH even if they have another crypto they will shape shift to DASH to spend it. This will eventually get others switching to the useable product.
 
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camosoul

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Even when I explain what DASH is all about, the unique POW/POS governance structure, and what it is aiming to achieve, they get all excited about the project but are still dissuaded by the price.
Stupid people exist.

Surprise!
 

lynx

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I would hate that people are not getting involved DASH purely because of how the price is coming off which in reality is more psychological.
There is no issue here. We don't need those kind of investors, they would just make Dash more volatile.

When I exchange USD for EURO, I do not think of it as an investment, but as a means of obtaining a currency that I can use when I travel to Europe.
So, when people convert USD to JPY, do they become happier because they have a hundred times more "monies"?
 
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TroyDASH

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There is no issue here. We don't need those kind of investors, they would just make Dash more volatile.



So, when people convert USD to JPY, do they become happier because they have a hundred times more "monies"?
It's different for JPY. People are used to working with large whole numbers. No one is used to working with decimals that have several leading zeros. It's a usability issue. Everybody keeps responding to this saying we don't need that kind of investor, but that is not at all the reason that this is being argued for, as @revelations86 clearly stated here.

Tungfa, I fully understand your point and would agree if we are talking about an investment, especially within the context of a large or complex purchase that we are intending to hold over time (i.e. equity, house, etc..). Investment is the operative word. However, the goal of DASH is to go mainstream and operate within the capacity as a payment mechanism rather than an investment offering made to a sophisticated bunch. Therefore, DASH needs to be presented in a way which appeals to the mainstream user and unfortunately, mainstream users don't sit around and factor total supply when transacting, paying, withdrawing or converting from one currency into another. They look at price alone. This is just the reality and if we want to appeal and gain mainstream adopters, we must confirm to this reality. It is not deception. Why did we hire a marketing firm to begin with? To present a product in the most suitable light and create awareness among the public. I would therefore argue that denominating in mDash is the right approach to achieve this goal as another user suggested here.

In my opinion, we should not be subjecting end users to decimals smaller than 0.01. Whether that means re-denominating DASH, or using a different denomination like mDASH, or using a different name entirely, or committing to always displaying the values in the user's preferred currency. But I would submit to you that there's a reason why mBTC and uBTC have failed to achieve widespread usage and understanding, and using anything other than DASH means we may not be taking full advantage of our brand.
 

lynx

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@TroyDASH

@revelations86 said people were put off by the price of a whole Dash, not by having to use decimals.

If it makes you happy, the wallets could have an option to hide Dash balances entirely. If you say users are bothered by it, obscure it away, under the hood, like they plan to do with addresses.

But that doesn't address the op's main concern. His "non-investor" users never bought any Dash to begin with.
 

TroyDASH

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@TroyDASH

@revelations86 said people were put off by the price of a whole Dash, not by having to use decimals.

If it makes you happy, the wallets could have an option to hide Dash balances entirely. If you say users are bothered by it, obscure it away, under the hood, like they plan to do with addresses.

But that doesn't address the op's main concern. His "non-investor" users never bought any Dash to begin with.
It very well could be the same thing that is an issue for both users and investors alike.
In either case, yes, I would agree that it should be obscured away, but I also don't like if obscuring it away means that users don't see "DASH" when they are using Dash.
 

revelations86

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I think Troydash captured what I meant to say perfectly. In that we need to treat Dash just like a currency and not as an investment. These are 2 different concepts as I keep saying over and over. If we are positioning Dash as a currency, then it needs to adopt the characteristics of currencies. One of which is multiple denominations. The USD contains 100, 50, 20, 10, 5, and 1 bills to make it easier for people to transact. mDash should be our base unit (akin to a $1 bill) Secondly, Troy Dash made an excellent point regarding going to 2 decimal points which is yet another characteristic of currencies and I agree with this. There are some projects such as Electroneum (ETN) which have this feature for the purposes of making it easily spendable and usable.

Dash, as an investment (for the purposes of Masternode purchase) is fine the way it is now, but for the purposes of a easily transactable currency for everyday use, it needs to be refined so that it becomes so easy that your grandmother could use it. D-igital Cash, Evolution, this is the direction we are going in guys and just like with the rebranding from Darkcoin, we need to make these changes. Again, we need to see Dash as a currency, not as an investment.

How do I go about putting this up for a vote? Do I submit a proposal through Dash Central?
 

yocko

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I think Troydash captured what I meant to say perfectly. In that we need to treat Dash just like a currency and not as an investment. These are 2 different concepts as I keep saying over and over. If we are positioning Dash as a currency, then it needs to adopt the characteristics of currencies. One of which is multiple denominations. The USD contains 100, 50, 20, 10, 5, and 1 bills to make it easier for people to transact. mDash should be our base unit (akin to a $1 bill) Secondly, Troy Dash made an excellent point regarding going to 2 decimal points which is yet another characteristic of currencies and I agree with this. There are some projects such as Electroneum (ETN) which have this feature for the purposes of making it easily spendable and usable.

Dash, as an investment (for the purposes of Masternode purchase) is fine the way it is now, but for the purposes of a easily transactable currency for everyday use, it needs to be refined so that it becomes so easy that your grandmother could use it. D-igital Cash, Evolution, this is the direction we are going in guys and just like with the rebranding from Darkcoin, we need to make these changes. Again, we need to see Dash as a currency, not as an investment.

How do I go about putting this up for a vote? Do I submit a proposal through Dash Central?
I think a proposal is the only way to get a true concensous of what stake holders want
 
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TroyDASH

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I think Troydash captured what I meant to say perfectly. In that we need to treat Dash just like a currency and not as an investment. These are 2 different concepts as I keep saying over and over. If we are positioning Dash as a currency, then it needs to adopt the characteristics of currencies. One of which is multiple denominations. The USD contains 100, 50, 20, 10, 5, and 1 bills to make it easier for people to transact. mDash should be our base unit (akin to a $1 bill) Secondly, Troy Dash made an excellent point regarding going to 2 decimal points which is yet another characteristic of currencies and I agree with this. There are some projects such as Electroneum (ETN) which have this feature for the purposes of making it easily spendable and usable.

Dash, as an investment (for the purposes of Masternode purchase) is fine the way it is now, but for the purposes of a easily transactable currency for everyday use, it needs to be refined so that it becomes so easy that your grandmother could use it. D-igital Cash, Evolution, this is the direction we are going in guys and just like with the rebranding from Darkcoin, we need to make these changes. Again, we need to see Dash as a currency, not as an investment.

How do I go about putting this up for a vote? Do I submit a proposal through Dash Central?
I support the concept, but from what I have seen thus far, I would bet that this would be unlikely to pass a vote right now. Recommend saving yourself the 5 dash proposal fee
 

bigrcanada

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Cross posting on this as it's a reply to the same thing. ..

"BIG no to any kind of split! I'm with Camsoul on this one.... If people are to ignorant, stupid or lazy to learn something other then a 2 decimal system... They deserve to be poor and destitute. Period. Gold and Silver worked awesome for centuries.... There were no 2 decimal points.

Stock splits/ quantitative easing/ print money is what has made the mess we are in today.

I and other MN most certainly would be voting no on this. People, Dash and digital currencies are not here to redistribute the wealth of the world... It's meant to be a fair medium of exchange and a store of value....and a unit of account that is not controlled by governmentsor central banks .. Not to fix the social problems of the world. Jesus! If your friends are too stupid to comprehend nothing more then 2 decimals or are buying currency because it's price per unit is cheaper and can't wrap their mind around supply ... You should immediately dump them as friends... Just saying"
 

camosoul

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Stupid people (still) exist.

Surprise!
I think a proposal is the only way to get a true concensous of what steak holders want
I don't think anyone sufficiently stupid to consider this an issue, can afford the proposal fee...

...because people so exceptionally stupid, are, and deserve to be, broke.

Working as intended...

I prefer my steak rare... Did you mean stake? Case and point...

You've got DASH, and you've got duffs. Same as dollars and pennies. Frankly, I think granularity is at risk without a fractional increase... But this would have no impact on value, and would not be a revaluation. The pennies we already have just get divided into smaller units to accommodate deflation beyond 6 points. Whether one believes DASH will ever be worth $100,000 or not, failing to prepare for that would result in an inability to provide fine enough resolution.
 
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yocko

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Stupid people (still) exist.

Surprise!

I don't think anyone sufficiently stupid to consider this an issue, can afford the proposal fee...

...because people so exceptionally stupid, are, and deserve to be, broke.

Working as intended...

I prefer my steak rare... Did you mean stake? Case and point...

You've got DASH, and you've got duffs. Same as dollars and pennies. Frankly, I think granularity is at risk without a fractional increase... But this would have no impact on value, and would not be a revaluation. The pennies we already have just get divided into smaller units to accommodate deflation beyond 6 points. Whether one believes DASH will ever be worth $100,000 or not, failing to prepare for that would result in an inability to provide fine enough resolution.
Thanks for pointing that out, I must have had dinner on my mind. Median rare it was.
 

revelations86

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Cross posting on this as it's a reply to the same thing. ..

"BIG no to any kind of split! I'm with Camsoul on this one.... If people are to ignorant, stupid or lazy to learn something other then a 2 decimal system... They deserve to be poor and destitute. Period. Gold and Silver worked awesome for centuries.... There were no 2 decimal points.

Stock splits/ quantitative easing/ print money is what has made the mess we are in today.

I and other MN most certainly would be voting no on this. People, Dash and digital currencies are not here to redistribute the wealth of the world... It's meant to be a fair medium of exchange and a store of value....and a unit of account that is not controlled by governmentsor central banks .. Not to fix the social problems of the world. Jesus! If your friends are too stupid to comprehend nothing more then 2 decimals or are buying currency because it's price per unit is cheaper and can't wrap their mind around supply ... You should immediately dump them as friends... Just saying"
The point isn't that we should dumb things down because many people are ignorant. The point here has to do with adopting characteristics of a usable currency. Dash is being positioned to function like a transactable currency not gold or silver or any other complex financial asset. It therefore, must take on the characteristics of a currency which entail simplicity, speed and stability. Now, whether this is accomplished under the hood through a mapping (i.e. users only see and spend USD value to 2 decimal points of their dash) or flat outright is irrelevant.

Take exchange traded funds (ETF) for example. We are not saying let's dismantle the whole structure of ETFs because the average person is too stupid or ignorant to understand what they are and how they are compromised. What we are saying though is if you want to start getting people to use ETFs to make everyday purchases, it can't function the way it currently functions and needs to change to function like the dollar, NOT in terms of how it is derived, but in terms of how it used. This is why people don't come into stores with bars of gold and silver to buy pizza or a bottle of water.

Do you see the point we are trying to make?