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Reduction Of Proposal Fee To 0.1 Dash (Proposal)

This is a cross post from Slack from @Bridgewater which I thought was an awesome writeup:

"Regarding proposal fee reduction discussed earlier, I see it as bad thing, and a rising cost of entry as good--not just for weeding out scammers but for growth in general. IMO, it means increasing responsibility of contractors, who should actually be doing bigger and bigger projects as Dash itself grows and the proposal fee gets higher because of that growth. This is an economic self-balancing factor that need not be touched unless you're playing micro-management government overreach. You built the system and gave the rules to everybody, and then grew because of it.

Remember the point of crypto? You can't invest and produce in an economy where somebody can keep changing the rules. No-one will play. You need something with clear understandable rules and then people will figure out how best to use it. You can't do it for them, because it kills all creativity and innovation. Dash is not, or should not try to be a heavy-handed government; it should facilitate free market capitalism. If Dash gets bigger, people are free to band together and form entire organizations devoted to micro-projects that help Dash. The MN can easily vote for said organizations based on proven performance and professionally prepared auditing reports. Those contractors could even run their own Dash-compatible DAO to do their own voting and funding. But that's only possible when you have something large and _stable_ backing it up.

Dash needs to be able to scale to bigger and bigger projects, and you can't do that with micromanagement. Are you going to adjust the coin supply too because dash gets "too expensive" and not enough people can have 100 dash? Just as dash is infinitely divisible, so too is management.

Progress does not come from going backward, but forward. If Dash has passed the phase where it needs 5 dollar proposals because its market cap is now in the hundreds of millions, that is a GOOD thing. What happens when dash market cap is 500 Billion? Let's have the MN vote on some kid proposing to fund a Dash sticker for his bicycle--Really? The answer is that if we keep thinking like this we will never reach 500 billion market cap, because the big money only comes from scaling through delegation. This is also the same reason many small companies never become large companies, btw. /rant"
 
I totally understand this proposal and I am 100% voting AGAINST it! and I would advise other masternode owners to do the same, think carefully do u really want to create a hard fork?

The hard fork will occur in case you vote against the decreasing of the proposal fee. In that case the new generation of Dashers will understand how stupid, greedy and lazy the Dash generation of 2014-2016 is, and that they refuse to change. So the new Dashers will leave to another more fair coin. This is the hard fork you should be afraid of.

It is the hard fork of the community you should be afraid of, and not the hard fork of the code. Because money is nothing without a community to believe to it. And the biggest the community is, the stongest the money is.

If you refuse to diminish the proposal fee you will never become big, because this bad decision reveals your real character. You are fat rich lazy guys and you are afraid of the work that is required in order to evaluate proposals. You are stupid guys and you are afraid of taking governance decisions thats why you set the question price so high. You are suspicious guys, you suspect that people will spam you, but spam has not occured yet. Who wants to join a community that is lead by lazy, suspicious and stupid guys that delegate their leading role to others or to employees-slaves? If you refuse to diminish the proposal fee you will bleed. You will lose both people (especially the new generations) and faith.

And remember, your value does not increase because your dollar price increases. Your value increases whenever you manage to compete the dollar guys, and not whenever you serve them. The dollar guys control the births and the deaths here in Dash. They increase Dash's price with their dollars, and suddently new ignorants arrive here. They decrease Dash's price with their dollars, and people leave. So dont be proud of it. You are still dollar's filthy slaves and you will always remain like that unless you increase the total number of the masternodes. Increasing the number of the masternode operators will have also another positive effect, it will decrease the laziness, the stupidness and the suspiciousness of the leaders of Dash (the decrease will happen because the concentration of these three vices is dense in the masternodes operators who happen to have nowadays the leadership responsibility of Dash)
 
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This is a cross post from Slack from @Bridgewater which I thought was an awesome writeup:

"Regarding proposal fee reduction discussed earlier, I see it as bad thing, and a rising cost of entry as good--not just for weeding out scammers but for growth in general. IMO, it means increasing responsibility of contractors, who should actually be doing bigger and bigger projects as Dash itself grows and the proposal fee gets higher because of that growth. This is an economic self-balancing factor that need not be touched unless you're playing micro-management government overreach. You built the system and gave the rules to everybody, and then grew because of it.

Remember the point of crypto? You can't invest and produce in an economy where somebody can keep changing the rules. No-one will play. You need something with clear understandable rules and then people will figure out how best to use it. You can't do it for them, because it kills all creativity and innovation. Dash is not, or should not try to be a heavy-handed government; it should facilitate free market capitalism. If Dash gets bigger, people are free to band together and form entire organizations devoted to micro-projects that help Dash. The MN can easily vote for said organizations based on proven performance and professionally prepared auditing reports. Those contractors could even run their own Dash-compatible DAO to do their own voting and funding. But that's only possible when you have something large and _stable_ backing it up.

Dash needs to be able to scale to bigger and bigger projects, and you can't do that with micromanagement. Are you going to adjust the coin supply too because dash gets "too expensive" and not enough people can have 100 dash? Just as dash is infinitely divisible, so too is management.

Progress does not come from going backward, but forward. If Dash has passed the phase where it needs 5 dollar proposals because its market cap is now in the hundreds of millions, that is a GOOD thing. What happens when dash market cap is 500 Billion? Let's have the MN vote on some kid proposing to fund a Dash sticker for his bicycle--Really? The answer is that if we keep thinking like this we will never reach 500 billion market cap, because the big money only comes from scaling through delegation. This is also the same reason many small companies never become large companies, btw. /rant"

You are going backward. Progress is the decentralization. Your whole proposition, and your whole way of thinking is towards a centralized bullshit. The Dash generation of 2014-2016 to be the centre of the world. How much stupid someone may be, to believe in such a nonsense?

Cryptotards... You inherited the stupidity genes of bitcoin directly into to your brain cells, and no mutation has happened yet.:rolleyes::(
 
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Hi Acedian

I won't comment on the actual fee I think we should have right now. But just to point out, these proposals that just ask a question aren't always going to get results because proposals only work when they pay someone to do something (this is the fundamental incentive modal of the budget system). For example, this proposal should really pay a dev (whoever) to implement the code change and PR it to the dashpay repo.

There is the argument that e.g. the core devs are employed by the Core Team dao which is subcontracting to the network on a rolling monthly basis - therefore a decision like this must be followed. I agree with that to a point, but really budget proposals are supposed to financially incentivize people to take action. This proposal isn't financially incentivizing anyone so I wouldn't be surprised if these type of proposals are often contentious / not followed in Dash's future.

Andy Freer

EDIT: BTW, this requires a hard fork, so it's not something we can just change back and forth easily right now so we should put a lot of thought behind it (i agree 5 is too much right now personally but i would be more conservative with the reduction for security / technical reasons)

The block size/scaling question was asked in this way, with no financial incentives. Wasn't it?
A hard fork is of course a concern. Perhaps this is a use for sentinel. I don't understand it fully, but couldn't it be used to make the fee an easy thing to change or even have a dynamic fee?
 
The block size/scaling question was asked in this way, with no financial incentives. Wasn't it?
A hard fork is of course a concern. Perhaps this is a use for sentinel. I don't understand it fully, but couldn't it be used to make the fee an easy thing to change or even have a dynamic fee?

Yes absolutely. That was a core team proposal though, I just mean that signalling by a 3rd party without consideration won't always work. Paying people to do things usually works.

Agree on the dynamic fee I think see what Udjin thinks about it.
Andy
 
I'm glad to see that I am no longer the lone voice of reason among MNOs. Still not enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

If your idea isn't good enough for you to put in your own money, why should everyone else?

Willing and Able. Just because you had an idea does not make you able to execute it. Sitting in your mom's basement, hitting the bong, dreaming up ideas; this is a waste of the MNs' time. If you haven't succeeded at anything else in life, then, yeah, you probably cannot afford the fee... If you haven't got the resources or experience, we don't need to hear about your pie-in-the-sky anyway.

Posting on the forums is free. Submitting proposals is not. Learn the difference.
 
I totally understand this proposal and I am 100% voting AGAINST it! and I would advise other masternode owners to do the same, think carefully do u really want to create a hard fork?
The consequences of a hard-fork are known and have manageable limits.

The consequences of the unchecked stupid that motivated this suggestion are limitless... As we say in legal self-defense: "threat of grave bodily harm and/or death."

Such an extreme degree of stupid is far more unsettling than a hard-fork. Stupidity this extreme becomes a matter of survival. Kill it with fire.
 
I'm glad to see that I am no longer the lone voice of reason among MNOs. Still not enough, but it's a step in the right direction.

If your idea isn't good enough for you to put in your own money, why should everyone else?

Willing and Able. Just because you had an idea does not make you able to execute it. Sitting in your mom's basement, hitting the bong, dreaming up ideas; this is a waste of the MNs' time. If you haven't succeeded at anything else in life, then, yeah, you probably cannot afford the fee... If you haven't got the resources or experience, we don't need to hear about your pie-in-the-sky anyway.

Posting on the forums is free. Submitting proposals is not. Learn the difference.

Posing questions is governance and politics, it has nothing to do with implementation proposals. Having questions was always free and it will always be. Only the slaves stop the questions. And if you believe that everyone should be the slave of your generation, and they should not ask questions to you, you are simply stupid. You must answer all the questions when you are a leader. The only excuse for not answering a new question is when you have already answered a similar one. Masternodes are the leaders of Dash, so answering governance questions is their job.

Money's existence is also considered as a question. Money exists because some people answered yes in this question. So the questions are above money, and they are free. Politics is above money, everybody except the stupid understand that.

@camosoul, you do not understand the new governance system that arises and you think that Dash should remain in the concept of the old budget system. You are an old dasher, your mind is stuck in the past. The generation gap. :rolleyes:
 
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"

"RichardAO"
There is *no* way to convince friends to give you hundreds of dollars. No one will. Not in Dash and not in fiat.
Really? No way? Why should I support something, potentially vote on it and pay for it, if you cant even get 5 of *your own friends* behind it? Leave the fee as it is, so only serious value-adding well-planned proposals get voted on.
 
Really? No way? Why should I support something, potentially vote on it and pay for it, if you cant even get 5 of *your own friends* behind it? Leave the fee as it is, so only serious value-adding well-planned proposals get voted on.

How many times shall I tell this? THE PROPOSAL FEE MUST BE LOW, BECAUSE THE BUDGET SYSTEM SHOULD EVOLVE TO A GOVERNANCE SYSTEM. You need to ask small questions to the masternodes, small referendums. The masternodes are stupid and they are unable to judge complex peculiar projects and proposals, thats why the small simple questions fit better to them.

Those questions should be free of charge (or with a very small charge just to prevent spam). And some people will classify those questions in a tree like structure in order to facilitate the masternodes to browse this tree and not to be lost in a flat field. The masternodes will not be forced to answer all these questions, they can ignore as many as they want. But in any case, and any number of questions the masternodes decide to answer, a decision tree could be built, that will reveal the masternodes will (and how fool and stupid or smart and clever the masternodes community is). And remember, the masternodes cannot be found all together, in any thread or in any forum!!! The only place where we can trustworthy authenticate the masternodes, is in the governance system! So dont listen to those people who argue otherwise. They want to break the masternodes electorate in small parts, in order to justify their sneaky actions.

Based in this decision tree, peculiar and complex implementation proposals compatible to the decision tree could be proposed to the masternodes, and let the proposal fee of these complex projects to cost (proportionaly) as many Dash as the branches of the decision tree they are trying to implement (in order to be serious propositions and not scams).

Admit it. The masternodes are stupid and unable to judge complex proposals. If you continue your false road of increasing the proposal fee and ban the governance questions, you will finnaly outsource the judgement of the peculiar complex proposals (which are based in hidden decision trees that the stupid masternodes are unable to understand) to employee-slaves or to any other external evaluators. And this is an awfully centralized solution.
 
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I agree that we need to lower the fee for proposals. Maybe we can try 1 or 2 dash and see what happens.


and actually we needs to seek for good ideas offering treasury dash.
 
some childish snowflake said:
@camososul, you can't know stuff about stuff because old. Your decades of life experience cannot hope to compete with the ignorant propaganda I've fallen for! Everything you know must be thrown out because something new-ish exists.
How did you manage to find time between black bloc beatings to post this? Do we have to break off your fingers and send the to your parents just to let them know the magnitude of their parental failure?
 
How did you manage to find time between black bloc beatings to post this? Do we have to break off your fingers and send the to your parents just to let them know the magnitude of their parental failure?

Not only everything you know will be thrown out.
Your whole self will be thrown out, and you will end up in fire, or in the best case you will end up in skull and bones.
If your whole self is going to end like that, imagine what is going to happen in your...."experience".
 
I think we should raise and decrease the fee depending on the number of proposal that comes up.

I think that is logical. If there's not enough proposal we decrease the fee and if there's too many we increase the fee.
 
The hard fork will occur in case you vote against the decreasing of the proposal fee. In that case the new generation of Dashers will understand how stupid, greedy and lazy the Dash generation of 2014-2016 is, and that they refuse to change. So the new Dashers will leave to another more fair coin. This is the hard fork you should be afraid of.

It is the hard fork of the community you should be afraid of, and not the hard fork of the code. Because money is nothing without a community to believe to it. And the biggest the community is, the stongest the money is.

If you refuse to diminish the proposal fee you will never become big, because this bad decision reveals your real character. You are fat rich lazy guys and you are afraid of the work that is required in order to evaluate proposals. You are stupid guys and you are afraid of taking governance decisions thats why you set the question price so high. You are suspicious guys, you suspect that people will spam you, but spam has not occured yet. Who wants to join a community that is lead by lazy, suspicious and stupid guys that delegate their leading role to others or to employees-slaves? If you refuse to diminish the proposal fee you will bleed. You will lose both people (especially the new generations) and faith.

And remember, your value does not increase because your dollar price increases. Your value increases whenever you manage to compete the dollar guys, and not whenever you serve them. The dollar guys control the births and the deaths here in Dash. They increase Dash's price with their dollars, and suddently new ignorants arrive here. They decrease Dash's price with their dollars, and people leave. So dont be proud of it. You are still dollar's filthy slaves and you will always remain like that unless you increase the total number of the masternodes. Increasing the number of the masternode operators will have also another positive effect, it will decrease the laziness, the stupidness and the suspiciousness of the leaders of Dash (the decrease will happen because the concentration of these three vices is dense in the masternodes operators who happen to have nowadays the leadership responsibility of Dash)

The above quote is tottaly related to the recent price crisis of Dash.
 
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