Reduction in proposal fee to 1 Dash (Pre-Proposal)

Should the proposal fee be changed to 1 Dash?


  • Total voters
    55

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Something maybe worth bearing in mind, increasing the fee is much more difficult than reducing it because it basically means a fork and there's more incentive to keep the lower fee. That's something best avoided imho, I'd rather see folks grouping together with similar projects and splitting the fee or have major proposals to fund multiple minor projects and base a fee mechanism on how that pans out than to see a change made that could have harmful consequences and be difficult to reverse.
The budget is not only for submitting implementation proposals. It can also be used for submitting simple questions, asking the masternodes about their principles .

For example a principle question may be : "Do you like all masternodes to have a static IP?" or "Do you want to implement a proof of identification for the masternodes?".
You have to encourage people to ask the masternodes about their principles, thats why a proposal fee should be kept low.
Of course the masternodes should not be enforced to answer to the questions
, thats why a mininum participation (currently set to 10%) should be there and only if this threshold is bypassed the reimbursement of the proposal fee should be payed.

Finaly the principle question after beeing finilized, the question should remain and continue to get voted, because the masternodes may change their mind in specific principle after one year or so, and this should be visible to everybody.
 
Last edited:

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
3,315
1,393
1,183
The budget is not only for submitting implementation proposals. It can also be used for submitting simple questions, asking the masternodes about their principles .

For example a principle question may be : "Do you like all masternodes to have a static IP?" or "Do you want to implement a proof of identification for the masternodes?".
You have to encourage people to ask the masternodes about their principles, thats why a proposal fee should be kept low.
Of course the masternodes should not be enforced to answer to the questions
, thats why a mininum participation (currently set to 10%) should be there and only if this threshold is bypassed the reimbursement of the proposal fee should be payed.

Finaly the principle question after beeing finilized, the question should remain and continue to get voted, because the masternodes may change their mind in specific principle after one year or so, and this should be visible to everybody.
I think it's important to have cheap governance proposals. However, if we get MN only polls in these forums then that's going to be a huge help because it opens up the possibility of having a single governance proposal (a bill?) with multiple parts, and the proposer having some confidence that it might actually be approved.

There is another solution. We could have a minimum fee of, say, 0.1 dash and let the proposer set their own fee. The more dash they add, the higher it goes up on the list.

Or even better, a minimum price of, say, 0.5 dash plus 0.001 dash per word. This way it automatically pays translation costs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ec1warc1

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
318
170
113
60
The idea of the cost is to prevent spam, not prevent proposals. At between $400 and $500USD right now, we are victims of our own success. This needs attention ASAP.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
The current result of this vote shows that @David and @TroyDASH voted "No" and @Acedian and @SirHikmat voted "Yes". All the rest votes do not count, because the voters have not the masternode badge.

So although the majority of the Dash community seems to agree to reduce the proposal fee, the masternodes seem divided.
 

Acedian

Member
Mar 17, 2017
243
71
88
Dash Address
XeMABbcebB5yeZH2HxsV7yLNJA9hbzMgpz
The current result of this vote shows that @David and @TroyDASH voted "No" and @Acedian and @SirHikmat voted "Yes". All the rest votes do not count, because the voters have not the masternode badge.

So although the majority of the Dash community seems to agree to reduce the proposal fee, the masternodes seem divided.
Four confirmed masternode owners voted. This was a waste of time. Only getting 30 votes...I am not going to risk 5 Dash on this.
Sorry for wasting peoples time, but thank you for your input.

The devs ask for their salary and get 200+ votes on the day it is submitted. Where other than making a real proposal can you get that sort of response?
 
  • Like
Reactions: camosoul

ec1warc1

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
318
170
113
60
I have a masternode, no badge - yet. Did I vote? I don't remember. Get me some brain cells please.

I voted yes, but I think the cost should be set to $50 - or half a dash.

And look! I got my MN badge - that is cool! [banana dance] - doesn't work here! :p

Sorry for wasting peoples time
- This discussion is definitely not a waste of time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

raze

King of the Morlocks
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Mar 9, 2014
337
372
233
Dash Address
Xtrdw361DvoyDhxL5XoeAvTxTPvM4dXuLW
I think somewhere around $50 is reasonable, and that it should be a flat fee across the board. If we had a system that automatically adjusts the fee based on fiat value rather than a fixed Dash denomination, we wouldn't have to worry about volatility necessitating more discussions and proposals to change it every time the price moves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JZA

lynx

Active Member
Dec 11, 2015
364
250
133
The devs ask for their salary and get 200+ votes on the day it is submitted. Where other than making a real proposal can you get that sort of response?
Nowhere, because people wouldn't register multiple accounts in the forum just to have one vote in a poll for each masternode they own.
But perhaps this proposal could implement such a system.

PS: All this translation talk made me change my vote. If people are going to whine for free translations we are not ready for a fee reduction.
 
Last edited:

mstang83

New Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Feb 11, 2016
11
5
3
This is definitely something that needs addressed. As the price of DASH goes up or down we need a way to adjust the proposal submission fee. But I keep forgetting that 1 DASH = 1 DASH. The system works if you were an early adopter sitting on a pile of DASH. But definitely visibly prohibiting from the perspective of someone just getting into DASH.
 

Technologov

Member
Mar 5, 2017
160
36
88
38
Israel
+1

I will vote to reduce the price of proposals. (I think under $100 is fine; Perhaps under $50). 5 DASH will price people out.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I think the correct thing to do is to reduce the proposal fee to zero, and ONLY IN THE CASE spam occurs, then rise the fee as much as it is required in order for the spam to stop. If the spam stops, then start again slowly reducing the fee until it reaches again zero, or until the spam starts again (in that case the fee will increase again). The rise or the fall of the proposal fee will be decided by a numerical voting among the masternodes (yes vote the numbers once again)

The dynamicaly voted fee is the only correct thing to do. Anything else, and whatever hardcoded number is decided for the fee, it is just wrong and a waste of time (especially a waste of time for the people who are talking or complaining about it).
The developpers should respect the time of the people, and fix this problem once and forever.
 
Last edited:

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
@Acedian, have a look, now the score is

Masters: yes/no=6/2
Slaves: yes/no=24/6


<vote history> <-- why vote history is usefull?
Should the proposal fee be changed to 1 Dash?
*Yes. 30 vote(s) 78.9%

No. 8 vote(s) 21.1%
</vote history>
 
Last edited:

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I voted no because it shouldn't even be denominated in DASH, it should be denominated in USD.
In that case your vote does not belong to the "No" poll option, but to the "other" poll option, which should be added in this poll.
 
Feb 25, 2017
165
13
78
@Acedian, have a look, now the score is

Masters: yes/no=6/2
Slaves: yes/no=24/6


<vote history> <-- why vote history is usefull?
Should the proposal fee be changed to 1 Dash?
*Yes. 30 vote(s) 78.9%

No. 8 vote(s) 21.1%
</vote history>
I want that masternode badge. How can I get it? I am a MN
 

Dandy

Member
Mar 1, 2017
276
99
88
46
Belgrade, Serbia
I also agree that the fee should be lowered asap.
I read through other stuff in this thread and there are some interesting ideas, but they all seem difficult to implement and need a very thorough critical review first.
We should fix what we can at the moment and then start thinking about other stuff.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
We have two polls having the same subject, so those two polls should be merged to one poll.
The two polls have some votes that are inconsistent. For example I voted "less than 1 dash" in the first poll and "yes" in the second poll. Whoever bureaucrat tries to merge the two polls to one, should inform me about the irrational way I voted, and ask me whether I would like to reconsider my vote. If I refuse to change my votes then the bureaucrat will cut my vote in half at the newly (created by the bureaucrat) merged poll ( ex. 0.5 of my vote goes to the (merged) option "less than 1 dash" and the other 0.5 to the (merged) option "yes"=="1 Dash")

FIRST POLL

<vote history>
How much Dash should a proposal cost at current prices?
5 Dash 6 vote(s) 15.0%
4 Dash 0 vote(s)0.0%
3 Dash 1 vote(s) 2.5%
2 Dash 6 vote(s) 15.0%
1 Dash 13 vote(s) 32.5%
*Less than 1 Dash 14 vote(s) 35.0%
</vote history>


No public information for this poll, on how the masters and the slaves voted.

SECOND POLL

<vote history> <-- why vote history is usefull?
Should the proposal fee be changed to 1 Dash?
*Yes. 36 vote(s) 81.8%

No. 8 vote(s) 18.2%
</vote history>

Masters: yes/no=8/2
Slaves: yes/no=28/6




MERGED POLL


I am unable to merge the two polls, because I have no information on how the users voted in the first poll. But I could write a code in order to merge the poll. This code should read the database and see who voted and how, and that way merge automatically without human intervention (assigning the task of merging not to a human being but to a program, also protects the privacy of the voters)

It is a pity that I write all these statistics manualy. This happens simply because @moocowmoo chose to install this forum which is closed source. So I am unable to write a plugin for it, and automate all this job.
 
Last edited:

RichardAO

New Member
Jan 17, 2017
34
8
8
NYS
Dash Address
XmTSEYFTG5dF7N68mEZwtpVUQPAPQ
If one cant afford 5 Dash, one can use the pre-proposal forum to garner support and perhaps obtain help from serious supporters of ones proposal who can pool Dash together for the proposal. Done.
Sorry if this is repetitive/redundant. Seemed obvious to me.
 

c3works

Member
Jun 22, 2016
52
18
48
60
Agree with the proposal. But I just want to know is it possible to set The proposal fees to a percentage to the fund that are going to receive? E.g. If a proposal demands for 300 DASH and the fees will be 0.5% I.e. 1.5 DASH?


使用Tapatalk 發送
This would be better than just lowering. The constant trade off is between being 'too high' and stifling otherwise good proposals, and being 'too low' and getting lots of spam. We also make it harder to directly process that Many without hiring 'administrator/gatekeepers.' That too presents its own centralizing power problems
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Proposal fee be changed to 1 Dash sounds very good. As we see, most of us would like that. And then lets keep it for a while.
This is a stupid solution. What if Dash reaches 1000$ or 10000$?

The only reasonable solution is this:
I think the correct thing to do is to reduce the proposal fee to zero, and ONLY IN THE CASE spam occurs, then rise the fee as much as it is required in order for the spam to stop. If the spam stops, then start again slowly reducing the fee until it reaches again zero, or until the spam starts again (in that case the fee will increase again). The rise or the fall of the proposal fee will be decided by a numerical voting among the masternodes (yes vote the numbers once again)
The dynamicaly voted fee is the only correct thing to do. Anything else, and whatever hardcoded number is decided for the fee, it is just wrong and a waste of time (especially a waste of time for the people who are talking or complaining about it).
The developpers should respect the time of the people, and fix this problem once and forever.
 

Technologov

Member
Mar 5, 2017
160
36
88
38
Israel
What-if we set it cheaper at 0.1 DASH ? Better ? (it will let mini-projects to get funded on Dash, creating a bigger community)

"The dynamicaly voted fee is the only correct thing to do. Anything else, and whatever hardcoded number is decided for the fee, it is just wrong and a waste of time (especially a waste of time for the people who are talking or complaining about it)."

I'm not sure how it could possibly work, but if dynamic fees is doable maybe it's also good.
We can set a "floor price" at say 0.001 DASH (which will be $1, even if Dash spikes to a $1000)
 

raze

King of the Morlocks
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Mar 9, 2014
337
372
233
Dash Address
Xtrdw361DvoyDhxL5XoeAvTxTPvM4dXuLW
What-if we set it cheaper at 0.1 DASH ? Better ? (it will let mini-projects to get funded on Dash, creating a bigger community)

"The dynamicaly voted fee is the only correct thing to do. Anything else, and whatever hardcoded number is decided for the fee, it is just wrong and a waste of time (especially a waste of time for the people who are talking or complaining about it)."

I'm not sure how it could possibly work, but if dynamic fees is doable maybe it's also good.
We can set a "floor price" at say 0.001 DASH (which will be $1, even if Dash spikes to a $1000)
For once I agree with demo (minus the reducing the fee to zero part). It's a waste of time to denominate in Dash because we'll always have to be playing catch-up to the price every time it moves and be forced to revisit this conversation again and again. If it's denominated in USD (based on an average from across various exchanges), we won't, since the Dash amount will automatically adjust to compensate for volatility.
 

Technologov

Member
Mar 5, 2017
160
36
88
38
Israel
You CANNOT denominate this in USD, for the simple reason that the Dash network (the Block-chain) knows nothing about the USD, and neither about the price of Gold.

It can be denominated only in Dash. But dynamic fees may be possible.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Is anyone interested in creating a multisig address, and do a fundrasing in order to reach the amount of 5 dash and be able to add a proposal in the governance system for the reduction of the proposal fee?

Lets start a list of the people who are interested in this fundrasing. Whenever the list reaches the 5 dash goal, we are going to vote for the person who we trust he creates the multisig address, and vote the minimum (m) number of signatures required to spend the money. Everyone may gives whatever he/she wants, even a single duff is welcome, and he/she may defines whatever terms or conditions he/she desires in order to give the amount. The only expected is to keep his/her promise.

The list follows (it will be updated accordingly):

1. Myself @demo ( XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX ) : I initially offer 10% of my entire fortune in Dash for this puprose ( 10% of my Dash fortune is currently set to 0.094960331 dash, since the above Dash address is the only non-empty I possess). Until the creation of the multisig address I keep the right to reduce or increase what I offer. But after the multisig address has been created, I hereby declare, on oath, that I will give the declared amount.
 
Last edited:

Technologov

Member
Mar 5, 2017
160
36
88
38
Israel
I can pay 5 DASH from my own pocket.

But 1 DASH proposal fee are still way too expensive, considering the fact we already were at $120,and I fully expect Dash to break a $1000 barrier by the next year.

Let's make it 0.1 DASH, so final price will be $7 now and $100 later.

Do you agree?
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I can pay 5 DASH from my own pocket.

But 1 DASH proposal fee are still way too expensive, considering the fact we already were at $120,and I fully expect Dash to break a $1000 barrier by the next year.

Let's make it 0.1 DASH, so final price will be $7 now and $100 later.

Do you agree?

Of course I agree. Setting the fee almost to 0 is what I prefer.