Question about Evolution

halso

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I watched Evan's walk through of the Evolution demo and there is a feature whereby you use an email address to create an account. Is the email sign up compulsory? I can imagine this might put some people off.
 
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AndyDark

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emails are optional. the issue with emails in the system is that the masternode that sends the actual email via SMTP knows that email address is signed up to evolution (but doesn't know their username or anything else). for that reason we're not basing much off emails right now. the issue without email is it's easier to lose your password and not be able to recover it.
 

GrandMasterDash

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The real issue is that X percent of MN hosts will be compromised, collecting signup email addresses and then sending out phishing emails to the same people that trust dash. Email was a lousy idea, an ancient idea, and an accident waiting to happen.
 
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Comodore

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The real issue is that X percent of MN hosts will be compromised, collecting signup email addresses and then sending out phishing emails to the same people that trust dash. Email was a lousy idea, an ancient idea, and an accident waiting to happen.
What do you propose instead is a real question?
 

demo

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emails are optional. the issue with emails in the system is that the masternode that sends the actual email via SMTP knows that email address is signed up to evolution (but doesn't know their username or anything else). for that reason we're not basing much off emails right now. the issue without email is it's easier to lose your password and not be able to recover it.

Email is not optional, it is mandatory. Check it, in the demo.
http://dashevolution.com/#/signup
They force you to add both a username and an e-mail.

This is because the e-mail uses the SMTP protocol, which is unencrypted and can be traced easily. Those who can spy you by watching your traceroute, they need at least two roads to do it. If you manage to connect to dashevolution site in a secure way, then they will spy your location through the SMTP protocol. Nothing is designed by chance in the network, and this is the reason why almost every site asks for e-mail confirmation. They can trace you back easily with e-mail.

The dash developers not only they dont care about anonymity, but with their actions it seems to me that they tend to compromise anonymity more and more.
 
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demo

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What do you propose instead is a real question?
SMTPS maybe? This at least secures SMTP at the transport layer.

Of course it is not enough to secure the transport layer.
Providing anonymity at the network (routing) layer is also needed.
 
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halso

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What is the ultimate vision of dash?

1. A user friendly method of transferring value all over the world, used by the general public? Or,

2. A privacy focused method of transferring value used by a subset of society?

If its #1. then emails are good, if its #2. then emails are bad. Is it possible to achieve both?

Maybe the two visions should be marketed separately: "dashpay" for the moms and pops to send their kids some money while traveling in Europe. Email sign-ups etc. Then a separate core "dash" wallet with less bells and whistles. Just Dash.
 
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demo

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What is the ultimate vision of dash?

1. A user friendly method of transferring value all over the world, used by the general public? Or,
2. A privacy focused method of transferring value used by a subset of society?
If its #1. then emails are good, if its #2. then emails are bad. Is it possible to achieve both?
Maybe the two visions should be marketed separately: "dashpay" for the moms and pops to send their kids some money while traveling in Europe. Email sign-ups etc. Then a separate core "dash" wallet with less bells and whistles. Just Dash.

Of course not.

If we let the big majority to go in an eponymous way, then the small minority which wants or needs to remain anonymous is stigmatized and targeted. A few people never manage to become real anonymous. In order to be anonymous, you have to hide among many.

Moms and pops should be anonymous too, so that the people who want (or need) to be anonymous to be able to hide among them.
 
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halso

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Of course not.

If we let the big majority to go in an eponymous way, then the small minority which wants or needs to remain anonymous is stigmatized and targeted. A few people never manage to become real anonymous. In order to be anonymous, you have to hide among many.

Moms and pops should be anonymous too, so that the people who want (or need) to be anonymous to be able to hide among them.
I don't necessarily agree. Think of cash as an example. If you choose to open a bank account and deposit your cash there, then yes you have given up your anonymity.

But if you choose to transact in cash only, then you remain anonymous.

The same is true with dash.

I think the ecosystem should cater for everyone.
 
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demo

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I don't necessarily agree. Think of cash as an example. If you choose to open a bank account and deposit your cash there, then yes you have given up your anonymity.

But if you choose to transact in cash only, then you remain anonymous.

The same is true with dash.

I think the ecosystem should cater for everyone.
You didnt undestand what I have said. Let me explain it differently.

If the big majority is doing their transactions in an eponymous way, it is easy for an outsider to find out the few people who insist of doing their transactions anonymously. The same problem occured with TOR project. TOR project protects anonymity in a good way, but because a few people are using it, it is easy for an outsider to trace the TOR users.

So if the big majority is not forced by the protocol to be anonymous, anonymity is vulnerable.
 
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halso

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You didnt undestand what I have said. Let me explain it differently.

If the big majority is doing their transactions in an eponymous way, it is easy for an outsider to find out the few people who insist of doing their transactions anonymously. The same problem occured with TOR project. TOR project protects anonymity in a good way, but because a few people are using it, it is easy for an outsider to trace the TOR users.

So if the big majority is not forced by the protocol to be anonymous, anonymity is vulnerable.
Ah, ok. I see what you mean. I suppose it will depend on how good the PrivateSend function will be, and also how big the ecosystem will get.
 

nmarley

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Email is not optional, it is mandatory. Check it, in the demo.
http://dashevolution.com/#/signup
They force you to add both a username and an e-mail.

This is because the e-mail uses the SMTP protocol, which is unencrypted and can be traced easily. Those who can spy you by watching your traceroute, they need at least two roads to do it. If you manage to connect to dashevolution site in a secure way, then they will spy your location through the SMTP protocol. Nothing is designed by chance in the network, and this is the reason why almost every site asks for e-mail confirmation. They can trace you back easily with e-mail.

The dash developers not only they dont care about anonymity, but with their actions it seems to me that they tend to compromise anonymity more and more.
You honestly believe that? Wow.

That demo site is a very early prototype -- the actual Evolution is months away from being ready, and might look entirely differently by then. It's being built now. Also, the website is just an example interface to the actual DAPI. The DAPI code (which is not even finalised yet) will be the "proof" of what is mandatory. Not some HTML webpage.

Sounds like you're spinning conspiracy theories.
 
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halso

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emails are optional. the issue with emails in the system is that the masternode that sends the actual email via SMTP knows that email address is signed up to evolution (but doesn't know their username or anything else). for that reason we're not basing much off emails right now. the issue without email is it's easier to lose your password and not be able to recover it.
Andy, will the evolution client be released in different languages?
 

GrandMasterDash

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What do you propose instead is a real question?
Actually, I made a suggestion in a different thread.

I think it would be better if a small charge is made for initial account setup (just a few cents)... automatically paid when the account actually holds enough for it to be deducted.
 

AndyDark

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Sep 10, 2014
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What is the ultimate vision of dash?

1. A user friendly method of transferring value all over the world, used by the general public? Or,

2. A privacy focused method of transferring value used by a subset of society?

If its #1. then emails are good, if its #2. then emails are bad. Is it possible to achieve both?

Maybe the two visions should be marketed separately: "dashpay" for the moms and pops to send their kids some money while traveling in Europe. Email sign-ups etc. Then a separate core "dash" wallet with less bells and whistles. Just Dash.
It's both. digital cash you can spend anywhere from any device, with the option to delete your transaction/fund history. For users who don't want to use Evolution, it's 100% opt in, you can still use the QT client without usernames or contacts and just use raw addresses to receive / send. So if you're worried about being forced to identify yourself, obviously you don't. Even if you want to still use Evo you can just anonymize yourself at the connection level, e.g. use a VPN / Tor and fund your account with mixed Dash, so you can use Evo like anyone else but there is no connection between physical you and your Evo user.

This article is a good background on the gap we are trying to fill. Although our goal with Dash is obviously to provide this with the key missing factor of anonymity, so you don't need a chip in your arm or anyone to know what your spending on :) https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/yes-we-scan?utm_term=.vn4A15L5L#.cy2gnMXMX

EDIT: in regards to your previous question, everything we will do will be multi-lang. Our goal is to be a global service for users in any lang on any device from anywhere
 

AndyDark

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Actually, I made a suggestion in a different thread.

I think it would be better if a small charge is made for initial account setup (just a few cents)... automatically paid when the account actually holds enough for it to be deducted.
It's been discussed as an option and is still on the table. But the general feeling is to move fees away from consumers and onto merchants so we can compete with existing payment processors. The issue without fees for consumer signups and without email is obviously signup spamming and we are working on that. There are lots of considerations and all need to be balanced and that's what we're doing internally.
 

GrandMasterDash

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It's been discussed as an option and is still on the table. But the general feeling is to move fees away from consumers and onto merchants so we can compete with existing payment processors. The issue without fees for consumer signups and without email is obviously signup spamming and we are working on that. There are lots of considerations and all need to be balanced and that's what we're doing internally.
Okay, fair enough, I understand that. But I do think people need to remember where dash came from; instant and private money. It's the differentiating factors that made dash. As the OP pointed out, asking for an email address does not instil "private", it simply solves a different problem. While I appreciate people don't want extra charges, on balance, it would be a minor and one-time charge.

Can someone tell us what other options are available?
 

AndyDark

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Sep 10, 2014
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Okay, fair enough, I understand that. But I do think people need to remember where dash came from; instant and private money. It's the differentiating factors that made dash. As the OP pointed out, asking for an email address does not instil "private", it simply solves a different problem. While I appreciate people don't want extra charges, on balance, it would be a minor and one-time charge.

Can someone tell us what other options are available?
(...let me just explain my thoughts on the privacy side and background here...)

I don't really know anyone working on Dash that doesn't care about privacy and it's why I joined Darkcoin instead of any other project. That and also Evan's 2-tier scalable solution which means we don't need to hide info on the chain like in ZCash or Cryptonote, because I don't think any mainstream users are ever going to trust that with everything hidden, and second it's a honeypot for anyone to come in and take over distribution without any analytics as to how things are distributed and moving around.

After 2 years I think people realized it was unrealistic to believe the mainstream is ever going to adopt a purely 'private' currency because the demand just isn't there. I would guess 95% of mainstream users don't care about anonymity. If they did, they wouldn't be using ApplePay and chipping themselves to buy stuff. So Darkcoin evolved into Dash and with the 2-tier network there is so much more we can provide that is wasted if we just stick with the privacy features.

The way things are going, the mainstream is adopting new digital payment systems (that are mostly not cryptocurrencies which are too esoteric and hard to use) so I think that is really our target market and the rebrand to Dash was a smart thing to do to position ourselves to compete as such.

Where we are now I think is the smartest way to both build a mainstream digital payments system and second make sure users can be anonymous if they want. Most Evolution users (new users not us lot) won't care about privacy at all and signup with their email without thinking twice, but for those who care about the right to privacy (most people here right now), we have the only mainstream system that lets you stay private if you want.

What i'm trying to say is, if you want a totally private system, e.g. I2P that only works on a desktop, that's fine but I would challenge anyone who would claim that that can be a mainstream system with 4000 masternodes and multi-million $ market cap and a large userbase outside of e.g. the darknet (which I think will just stick with Bitcoin anyway and not small chains that aren't used much). The mainstream market on the hole just doesn't care about anonymity when purchasing products. but for those of us who recognize that the mainstream is going towards integrated digital payment systems, i really think the best way to get anonymity there is to build it into a great product that the bulk of users (who dont care about privacy) will use because it's useful, convenient, accesible and opens new markets, with privacy built into that. Privacy is one of our core ideologies, we just have to be smart as to how we give that option to mainstream users. Making them setup darknet boxes to access it is not the way I think, building in as an option in a great mainstream product, is.

Sorry for my rant :) I think it's worth explaining some of my own feelings on it. I'm on the same page with you on privacy, I just think this is the most realistic way to achieve those goals as we have to give the market what it wants if we want to grow into a competitor to PayPal and ApplePay etc..we just make sure privacy is an option within that.
 
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halso

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(...let me just explain my thoughts on the privacy side and background here...)

I don't really know anyone working on Dash that doesn't care about privacy and it's why I joined Darkcoin instead of any other project. That and also Evan's 2-tier scalable solution which means we don't need to hide info on the chain like in ZCash or Cryptonote, because I don't think any mainstream users are ever going to trust that with everything hidden, and second it's a honeypot for anyone to come in and take over distribution without any analytics as to how things are distributed and moving around.

After 2 years I think people realized it was unrealistic to believe the mainstream is ever going to adopt a purely 'private' currency because the demand just isn't there. I would guess 95% of mainstream users don't care about anonymity. If they did, they wouldn't be using ApplePay and chipping themselves to buy stuff. So Darkcoin evolved into Dash and with the 2-tier network there is so much more we can provide that is wasted if we just stick with the privacy features.

The way things are going, the mainstream is adopting new digital payment systems (that are mostly not cryptocurrencies which are too esoteric and hard to use) so I think that is really our target market and the rebrand to Dash was a smart thing to do to position ourselves to compete as such.

Where we are now I think is the smartest way to both build a mainstream digital payments system and second make sure users can be anonymous if they want. Most Evolution users (new users not us lot) won't care about privacy at all and signup with their email without thinking twice, but for those who care about the right to privacy (most people here right now), we have the only mainstream system that lets you stay private if you want.

What i'm trying to say is, if you want a totally private system, e.g. I2P that only works on a desktop, that's fine but I would challenge anyone who would claim that that can be a mainstream system with 4000 masternodes and multi-million $ market cap and a large userbase outside of e.g. the darknet (which I think will just stick with Bitcoin anyway and not small chains that aren't used much). The mainstream market on the hole just doesn't care about anonymity when purchasing products. but for those of us who recognize that the mainstream is going towards integrated digital payment systems, i really think the best way to get anonymity there is to build it into a great product that the bulk of users (who dont care about privacy) will use because it's useful, convenient, accesible and opens new markets, with privacy built into that. Privacy is one of our core ideologies, we just have to be smart as to how we give that option to mainstream users. Making them setup darknet boxes to access it is not the way I think, building in as an option in a great mainstream product, is.

Sorry for my rant :) I think it's worth explaining some of my own feelings on it. I'm on the same page with you on privacy, I just think this is the most realistic way to achieve those goals as we have to give the market what it wants if we want to grow into a competitor to PayPal and ApplePay etc..we just make sure privacy is an option within that.
Great insight, thanks for that Andy!

re: mass adoption. I read about the currency converters in some of the evo technical papers, but there wasn't much material there. Is the plan for those converters to be plugged into a future version of evolution?

I have this vision in my head of a dashpay mobile app that allows a user to instantaneously switch between global currencies. The user might not even know that dash is being bought and sold in the background to facilitate the currency trades. Is that where we are headed?
 

demo

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(...let me just explain my thoughts on the privacy side and background here...)

I don't really know anyone working on Dash that doesn't care about privacy and it's why I joined Darkcoin instead of any other project. That and also Evan's 2-tier scalable solution which means we don't need to hide info on the chain like in ZCash or Cryptonote, because I don't think any mainstream users are ever going to trust that with everything hidden, and second it's a honeypot for anyone to come in and take over distribution without any analytics as to how things are distributed and moving around.

After 2 years I think people realized it was unrealistic to believe the mainstream is ever going to adopt a purely 'private' currency because the demand just isn't there. I would guess 95% of mainstream users don't care about anonymity. If they did, they wouldn't be using ApplePay and chipping themselves to buy stuff. So Darkcoin evolved into Dash and with the 2-tier network there is so much more we can provide that is wasted if we just stick with the privacy features.

The way things are going, the mainstream is adopting new digital payment systems (that are mostly not cryptocurrencies which are too esoteric and hard to use) so I think that is really our target market and the rebrand to Dash was a smart thing to do to position ourselves to compete as such.

Where we are now I think is the smartest way to both build a mainstream digital payments system and second make sure users can be anonymous if they want. Most Evolution users (new users not us lot) won't care about privacy at all and signup with their email without thinking twice, but for those who care about the right to privacy (most people here right now), we have the only mainstream system that lets you stay private if you want.

What i'm trying to say is, if you want a totally private system, e.g. I2P that only works on a desktop, that's fine but I would challenge anyone who would claim that that can be a mainstream system with 4000 masternodes and multi-million $ market cap and a large userbase outside of e.g. the darknet (which I think will just stick with Bitcoin anyway and not small chains that aren't used much). The mainstream market on the hole just doesn't care about anonymity when purchasing products. but for those of us who recognize that the mainstream is going towards integrated digital payment systems, i really think the best way to get anonymity there is to build it into a great product that the bulk of users (who dont care about privacy) will use because it's useful, convenient, accesible and opens new markets, with privacy built into that. Privacy is one of our core ideologies, we just have to be smart as to how we give that option to mainstream users. Making them setup darknet boxes to access it is not the way I think, building in as an option in a great mainstream product, is.

Sorry for my rant :) I think it's worth explaining some of my own feelings on it. I'm on the same page with you on privacy, I just think this is the most realistic way to achieve those goals as we have to give the market what it wants if we want to grow into a competitor to PayPal and ApplePay etc..we just make sure privacy is an option within that.

If your goal is the mainstream, there are also other thing to follow. For exampe the basic income, democracy e.t.c are also mainstrean trends nowdays, but you reject them. Why do you especially choose to attack anonymity and privacy, in favor of the mainstream?

You should motivate the majority to start protecting their privacy, you should advertise this, you should not go with the flow of the ignorants and destroy one of the best properties of dash. Because if privacy and anonymity is applied into a vast majority of people which do not care about it (or do not know how to implement it), then anonymity and privacy becomes vulnerable. By inviting in dash all privacy and anonymity ignorants, you are indirectly destroying privacy and anonymity.

I do believe that majority do cares about anonymity and privacy, but they dont know how to protect it. So your assumption that majority does not care about anonymity and privacy, and that the mainstream is against it, this seems suspected to me. If you really doubt about what the mainstream is regarding privacy and anonymity, lets go for a poll. A poll where we are not going to ask only dash enthusiasts, but everyone. The majority cares about privacy, and the fact that they do not follow privacy good practices, it is not because of their own will but because of their ignorance.

What is dash? Why people are here? Ask yourself, and dont go downhill, but uphill. And if you really like to go with the mainstream, then do not name as mainstream whatever you believe it is, but precisely define what mainstream is by using a poll. And then follow ALL mainstream trends , and do not attack especially anonymity and privacy, because this seems suspected to me.
 
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Macrochip

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Feb 1, 2015
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Email is not optional, it is mandatory. Check it, in the demo.
http://dashevolution.com/#/signup
They force you to add both a username and an e-mail.

This is because the e-mail uses the SMTP protocol, which is unencrypted and can be traced easily. Those who can spy you by watching your traceroute, they need at least two roads to do it. If you manage to connect to dashevolution site in a secure way, then they will spy your location through the SMTP protocol. Nothing is designed by chance in the network, and this is the reason why almost every site asks for e-mail confirmation. They can trace you back easily with e-mail.

The dash developers not only they dont care about anonymity, but with their actions it seems to me that they tend to compromise anonymity more and more.
This post is the cherry on top of your anti-DASH tirades from the last few weeks. You are insinuating evil intentions and bad faith with zero evidence and by stating disinformation.
You are obviously here to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt through almost every post you make. You are a toxic character and have no real interest in the progress of Dash. To the contrary: you're on a mission to damage it. Others may not see you through, but I've recognized and slain dozens upon dozens of trolls in my years and you are one.
If it was up to me, you and your 2+ puppet accounts would've been banned from this forum a long time ago.
 

demo

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The difference being?

"...there is another kind of evil which we must fear most. And that is the indifference of good men."

You insinuate evil intentions still and make destructive, unhelpful criticism. Your interests are diametrically opposed to those of Dash.
I have made propositions in favor of privacy and anonymity.
What are your propositions? Do you have any?

If you have no propositions, and the only thing you are doing is to personal attack those persons who propose, then you are the one who is making destructive and unhelpful criticism.
 

Macrochip

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Feb 1, 2015
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I have made propositions in favor of privacy and anonymity.
What "propositions"? You mean this outlandish joke of technical impracticability? Why do you suppose no one cared about it? You have no clue about how software engineering works. You can make a wishlist of impossible things all you want, doesn't mean you will get them. You are the two women in this video:

What are your propositions?
I don't need to prove myself to you, I've been with Dash since almost the beginning and have educated hundreds of new members so kindly lay off the dick measurement contest, you will lose hands down.
 

Stealth923

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Mar 9, 2014
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For some reason - demo sounds a little like icebreaker but has taken a subtle approach to try and cause damage....

hmmmmmm
 

demo

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I don't need to prove myself to you, I've been with Dash since almost the beginning and have educated hundreds of new members so kindly lay off the dick measurement contest, you will lose hands down.

I didnt ask you to prove yourself to me. I asked for your propotitions, or for your arguments against my propositions. But you have neither propositions, nor (technical) arguments against my propositions. Your argument is just a funny video, like if we were actors here in dash, or politicians. You are not constructive at all. This is not a TV show, this is a forum. This is a place for arguments and not a place where we are competing eachother who will win the impression of the readers.

This is a call to everyone, to argue against what I have proposed, or to propose other things in favor of anonymity and privacy. So that the techical discussion to start. And this is also a call to all dash proponents to criticize those who want to compromise privacy and anonymity in favor of what THEY believe is the mainstream.
 
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yidakee

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Apr 16, 2014
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Regarding anonymity and privacy.

Darkcoin/Dash was never really really about anonymity. Bear with me. Evan's original intent was to create a project that solved Bitcoin's core issues. One of the biggest was lack of fungibility, one of the core conditions any means of value needs to have to legitimately be called 'money'. Bitcoin can be a currency, but cannot be real 'money' because it is not fungible.

Fungibility goes hand in hand with privacy, and why the famous phrase 'money is king' is used so often. 'Cos when dealing with hard cash, you don't need to justify anything to anyone because theoretically, money can't be traced back and transactions/money flow cannot be followed.

Anonymity is a natural side effect from privacy, that is more than welcome and an added feature. Privacy by far superseds anonymity.

Coinbase, for instance, is already closing user and merchant accounts because of tainted BTC's - that is both unfair and uncool. One day, you may get 'caught' paying for something with BTC and getting busted and taken to court because you're using 'illegal' bticoins. It's that ridiculous and happening already.

So the issue with the email signup is completely secondary to the core protocol itself. If anonymity is that important to you, invest in a VPN and use a spoof email account (you surely already have this if it's that important to you) and essentially, done deal.

What we need is a simple way to attract the masses, frictionless experience, one that everyone is familiar with and will not be deterred by 'fear of the new' - hardcore users will always have the QT or the daemon, and are considered advanced/power-users and most likely wont even touch Evo even if it were to use any other sign-up model, because it's going to be a web-based thing and they'll naturally avoid it like the plague.

.
 
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