Welcome to the Dash Forum!

Please sign up to discuss the most innovative cryptocurrency!

Pre-Proposal Vaultoro to implement DASH

Discussion in 'Budget Proposal Discussions' started by MoKa, May 16, 2018.

?

Would you support this proposal?

Poll closed Yesterday at 11:00 AM.
  1. YES

    7 vote(s)
    87.5%
  2. NO

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  1. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    We've just launched the proposal at dashcentral:
    https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Vaultoro_to_implement_DASH

    Gold for Dash: Vaultoro Exchange to implement DASH.


    The biggest physical gold/bitcoin-Exchange of the world (operated in UK and Germany with storage in Switzerland) is looking for diversification into other cryptos -
    and with the help of this proposal DASH will become the first bitcoin alternative to be implemented!





    1. Who is Vaultoro?

    Vaultoro (http://www.vaultoro.com) was the first exchange to offer a bitcoin/physical allocated gold trading pair more than 3 years ago, so users would never have to go back to fiat for hedging volatility.

    Vaultoro has been working towards its vision of developing the world’s biggest asset-based security solution. The goal is to create a fair, global financial system for everyone. Vaultoro wants to enable everyone to easily and quickly manage their physical and digital assets such as gold, silver and currently bitcoin. It is ready for the unbanked, for people in countries where government has destroyed its own money, for conservative goldbugs all over the world, for libertarians and for all who need a civilized safe haven where you have law enforcement and property rights guaranteed. Vaultoro creates technical solutions by which customers can use their physical gold as a means of payment. Our products include Vaultoro Trading, the world’s first real-time trading platform for gold and bitcoin, as well as Bar9, the gold savings account. Right now more than 0.5 tons of gold ($23,245,757) are being vaulted (https://audit.vaultoro.com) and 1.8 tons of gold (approx. $76.500.000) have been traded via Vaultoro. The quantity of gold traded is increasing every month. The head offices are located in Berlin and London, their vault is located in the freeport “Zollfreilager Embrach” Switzerland The company currently has more than 12,000 customers from 94 countries.

    Vaultoro also has pioneered exchange transparency developing the glass books protocol to become the most transparent exchange in the world while keeping client data absolutely private.

    2. Purpose of this proposal?

    We are seeking to integrate DASH in an existing and working crypto-gold exchange, not only to bring DASH to our 12,000+ users from 94 countries but also to make our gold and general commodities community aware of DASH’s advantages and user friendly features.

    3. What’s in it for DASH?

    We will list DASH/Gold and DASH/BTC trading pairs on Vaultoro.com and thereby create thousands of DASH wallets for our users and our platform. By doing so, we reach out to the gold community: Implementing a commodities-DASH-Exchange with Vaultoro means giving DASH a whole new application and opening a whole new market: with new sources of borderless international wealth transfer and fiat independency. Being the first cryptocurrency (after bitcoin) to become directly interchangeable with physical gold means: DASH is getting the opportunity to have a price discovery system based on hard assets and not just fiat. DASH will become more independent from fiat money and will thereby become more resilient to state regulation and fiat speculation. This means less volatility, more traffic and thereby more value.


    4. What do we ask for?

    1. 35 DASH per month for technical development in order to integrate & maintain the new trading pairs & platforms

    2. 8 DASH per month for project management

    3. 4 DASH per month for accounting

    4. 5 DASH per month for legal consultancy

    5. 5 DASH per month for content marketing

    6. 2 DASH per month for travel expenses


      [​IMG]


    7. 5 DASH reimbursement for the proposal cost

    241 DASH over a period of 4 months, calculated at a price of 350 €/DASH and a 15% buffer totalling 277.15 DASH. Any funds left over due to price appreciation will be used for marketing and a DASH usage bonus for customers using DASH.

    5. Win Win Situation

    Vaultoro is critical not only for DASH but also for the gold industry as a whole. For it could help dampen the volatility for DASH and gold price by

    a) increasing traffic from DASH to gold and vice versa,

    b) opening the way for a whole new community: the so called goldbugs (= $Billion Industry) to get the most modern way of direct payment without middlemen and the danger of losing control of their asset.

    c) opening a fiat money independant source of value transfer, that is not dependant on highly speculative money created at will from central banks (with their bazooka policies) and affiliated speculative investors but is always backed by the asset that no other can equal with its unmatched high and stable stock to flow ratio but a very great, wealthy and conservative flock that adheres to the values only DASH can provide.
    The difficulty is most of them just do not know it yet, although more and more goldbug opinion leaders side with the libertarian crypto crowd. In fact, both groups have many overlapping interests.

    d) offering a transparent order book, visible to all participants, reduces the risk of price manipulation, yet not giving detailed information on the user himself (open market competition vs spot price dictated by 5 big players)



    This is a great opportunity to offer a customer experience that is completely bank independent. The gold industry is a multi-billion dollar market. Although many of the vaults are located in secure legislations, they cannot liquidate or transfer values easily. However, with the service of Vaultoro they can. Most of them have to use bank wire transfers, which comes down to state controlled middlemen.

    Since gold is stored in a secure surrounding - being different from legal-tender currencies - it has evolved over 6000 years to become THE default value asset (surviving even solar flares, wars and government shutdowns, - defaults, confiscation and prohibition sprees), keeps away exceedingly hazardous third parties, like burglars and confiscators or the banking systems henchmen that do not respect private property.

    Higher traffic, lower volatility, a true usecase and gold as backing means even higher value for Dash.The role that the “petro-Dollar” had for oil, namely to be the dominating and outstanding currency for one asset could well become DASHs role for gold after adoption in this proposal, considering all its qualities and its possible edge in competition and first mover advantage.

    We are looking forward to a successful cooperation with DASH. Please let us know about your views on this proposal. You are more than welcome to leave questions, opinions and suggestion on this proposal.

    On behalf of Vaultoro please use this link for signup to help us keep track of the incoming traffic referred to this proposal.


    ---

    Who am I?

    My name is Moritz Kajdi, I am currently studying business economics at the University of Greifswald, Germany. I am a supporter of the Austrian School of Economics and therefore also a big fan of DASH and gold. I have written two articles (article 1, article 2) about cryptocurrencies in German that have gained much attention. One of them has been recognized by @tungfa who shared it on dash.org. I have also held a lecture on crytocurrencies at the University of Greifswald, Germany as part of a lecture series hosted by the Bundesverband deutscher Börsenvereine.
     
    #1 MoKa, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018 at 6:38 PM
    • Like Like x 5
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  2. Argon31

    Argon31 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2018
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    88
    How many transactions are you doing on a daily basis?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    135 transactions at a total volume of €200.000 per day on average.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. FabioMacno

    FabioMacno New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Long time Vaultoro customer here, can't wait to see Dash integrated!
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Orion

    Orion Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2017
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I think the price sounds reasonable for becoming the first Altcoin supported by this important exchange. :)
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Argon31

    Argon31 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2018
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Best of luck. You are doing good work, I hope this gets funded.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. splawik21

    splawik21 Grizzled Member
    Foundation Member Dash Support Group

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,071
    Likes Received:
    1,413
    Trophy Points:
    1,283
    @MoKa this proposal looks really nice.
    Hope to see it live soon and will be happy to support it.
    Good luck!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thank you, so do we.

    Happy to hear that!
     
  9. Arthyron

    Arthyron Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    88
    I just noticed this was posted in the Proposal rather than Pre-Proposal section. Seems like a pretty solid plan, and it helps immensely that you already have a functioning, usable product. Your funding request is a very reasonable amount for an integration. Sounds good, I don't see any real obstacles with this, looking forward to voting Yes.
     
  10. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thank you!! Would you suggest re-posting this in the "real" pre-proposal section?
     
  11. Arthyron

    Arthyron Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Only if you're looking for more feedback before you go on to a full proposal. You might be able to get a moderator to move the thread there if need be.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Iñaki

    Iñaki Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Sorry but I have to strongly speak out against this proposal.

    100k$ for an exchange integration with 135 trades per day(200k volume) is a joke. No exclusivity, no bonus, nothing extra. Leftover funds used to market the platform!? Really that has one of the lowest ROIs I’ve come across in a proposal.

    If any MNO cares to repost this on DC, feel free. I’m not whitelisted
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Iñaki

    Iñaki Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Another thought regarding remaining funds:
    I assume you can’t fund a new account with gold. You could probably fund a new account with dash. So if you market the gold/dash pair you’re marketing for people to sell their dash for gold. How does this help dash?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thank you for your concern and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. The marketing mentioned above would be pure DASH marketing.

    I'd much rather see it the other way around. We have more than 12000 customers with over 0.5 tons of gold waiting to liquidate their asset possibly into DASH with the help of this proposal. Especially if bitcoins transaction fees skyrocket again, the only thing left to ensure a cost effective transaction will be DASH. Not mentioning the perfect fit with InstantSend and PrivateSend which may be important for both merchants and private customers.
     
    #14 MoKa, May 23, 2018 at 12:23 PM
    Last edited: May 23, 2018 at 4:17 PM
  15. Iñaki

    Iñaki Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I’m not saying you shouldn’t add dash. The price tag is just way to high. Others built an exchange from the ground up for 18 dash some months ago.

    Why didn’t you just get in contact with cores busines developement to get help implementing dash?

    Are you vaulting 1.8 tons or 0.5 now?

    How does instant send and private send relate to your proposal? I don’t see the connection
     
    #15 Iñaki, May 23, 2018 at 3:16 PM
    Last edited: May 23, 2018 at 3:43 PM
  16. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Here's the difference:
    Building an exchange has a higher possibility of failure than actually using a platform which has been working for years. The cost of risk is not to underestimate! If we offer you something: we deliver - not saying we are UPS - yet we do!

    Second point:
    We're not developing a business model we're offering you the exclusive opportunity of a working use-case for DASH!
    This is not only an implementation on a crypto-exchange but the chance to actually enable DASH users to buy physically allocated gold! Thereby "gilding" DASH.

    This is not an easy thing to do, we've spent years developing relationships with professional bullion associations, liquidity providers, smelting companies and top tier vaulting facilities! The backend to make all this work is completely complex and not simply another crypto exchange.

    We would be proud to make DASH our first alternative gold pair! It's been asked for by clients from developing countries such as Venezuela, Myanmar and Zimbabwe.
     
    #16 MoKa, May 23, 2018 at 3:43 PM
    Last edited: May 23, 2018 at 4:08 PM
  17. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    InstantSend would allow us to do the most interesting thing, no other crypto can currently do effectively. It would allow market-takers to not have to trust our hot-wallet by taking an order from our order book directly from their controlled wallet to their gold-holding vault.

    PrivateSend is very important to all of our customers, since most so-called goldbugs hold privacy very close to their heart - as we all should.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Iñaki

    Iñaki Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Why does the price need to be higher when the chance of success is higher? Are you asking for integration costs or profit on top?

    Why didn’t you contagct core business developement for implementation assistance?

    Id we’re leaving out the buzz words like gold and fiat independent you proposal boils down to

    “integrate dash into a hard asset exchange with 134 trades per day on average with 3 months “exclusivity” for 100k us$”

    True or false?
     
  19. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Good questions, it's great to see someone finally asking this:

    1. We are aware of our good reputation, we have partnerships with some of the largest companies in the commodity industry. When you're talking about ROI you're surely aware of the term "total cost of risk". There will be no profit on top! If the price stays where it's at right now we will pay for some of it ourselves.

    2. It's not about implementing just another wallet, or putting in some API, rather than backend developing a gold pipeline from the oldschool commodities trading industry. If this was just about implementing a wallet, we would have done it yesterday. It's the allocated gold pair.

    3. No, false:
    It's rather: the only crypto to hard asset exchange in the world :)
     
    #19 MoKa, May 23, 2018 at 4:37 PM
    Last edited: May 23, 2018 at 4:42 PM
  20. Iñaki

    Iñaki Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    It might cost you this much money, I don’t doubt that. But I’m judging your proposal from the dash perspective. Giving 134 trades per day the option to use dash for 100k is minuscule return on investment.

    The only exchange is still a exchange
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. chuka

    chuka New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Hi @MoKa, my name is Victor, part of Dash Maracaibo team in Venezuela, i just read about your pre-proposal, seems good to me but what do you exactly mean with "gold"? i mean, literally gold or what? excuse me if i am wrong or something.

    cheers!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. MoKa

    MoKa New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    hi there @chuka , glad you asked!

    It's literally gold! allocated to the user in a top-tier vaulting facility in Switzerland.

    for further details please have a look at this link:

    http://support.vaultoro.com/knowled...is-the-difference-between-allocated-and-unall
     
    #22 MoKa, May 24, 2018 at 9:54 AM
    Last edited: May 24, 2018 at 10:13 AM
    • Useful Useful x 1
  23. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    862
    Trophy Points:
    183
    The more I think about it, the more I think this is a bit of a swizz.

    How much return would, say, $100,000 of dash give you? (masternode or masternode shares). I am going to suggest that the return would more than enough cover trading fees and storage fees. But instead, Joshua would have us believe, it's a good deal to hand over our dash in return for virtual gold. That is to say, your dash (now his) is the counter to the gold you now "own". So, while you're holding "gold", what is Joshua doing with his newly acquired dash? Seems to me, he could well be running masternodes (or masternode shares) and covering my trading fees and storage fees... I mean, why not??? But no no, he wants you to pay trading fees and storage fees, while raking in dash rewards. Nice one Josh.

    Now dear Joshua tells us about his radical transparency and the independent auditors.. yep, he could do that with the dash he acquires and puts to use in those masternodes / masternode shares.

    Totally voting NO.
     
  24. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    862
    Trophy Points:
    183
    From Vaultoro's terms of use page, I assume this also applies to dash:

    "If your Bitcoin balance on Vaultoro does not change in 6 years then Vaultoro will try to contact you with the last known email address, phone number and/ or postal address. If we can not get in contact with you or someone representing your estate then Vaultoro reserves the right to cease treating your Bitcoin holdings as client assets and the assets will be taken over by Vaultoro."
     
  25. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    862
    Trophy Points:
    183
    Vaultoro's terms of service says 90% of their bitcoin is held in cold storage. I have no reason to believe dash will be any different.

    From Vaultoro's transparency page, I can see they hold more than 473 bitcoin. Therefore, at least 425 bitcoins are held in cold storage. If the value of their dash holding ever matched bitcoin, they'd have more than 9,500 dash.

    Of course, initially, their dash holdings would be much smaller, but given their 90% cold storage arrangements, it is easy to imagine them running a masternode or two; there is no logical explanation why they should not do so.

    Vaultoro holding dash is to their advantage over bitcoin as bitcoin only gives rewards to miners, whereas dash shares it's rewards with masternode owners. How will said rewards be used? - a profit incentive over bitcoin, yet no added value to dash users? Will dash users get lower transaction costs or lower storage costs (or free)? Given that dash users are effectively crowd-funding masternodes for Vaultoro, should they receive benefits over bitcoin transactions?

    If Vaultoro does not have enough dash to run a masternode, they can make arrangements with a masternode shares provider. Such scenario is possible, much the same as Vaultoro operate their gold through bailments (see terms of service). Thus it seems inevitable that Vaultoro can secure additional income through dash rewards, regardless of whether they have 1000 dash or not.
     
  26. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    862
    Trophy Points:
    183
    Real world calculation:

    1. Investor hands over $100,000 to Vaultoro.

    2. As per terms of service, Vaultoro puts 90% into cold storage; $90,000 = 281 dash

    3. As quoted by Vaultoro, this purchase of gold will cost the user $385:

    0.5% trading fees for the first 500g ~ $105
    0.4% trading fees for the next kg ~ $167
    0.3% for the remaining 900g ~ $113​

    4. Storage fees for one year is going to cost 0.4%; $400 = 1.25 dash

    $100,000 x 0.004​

    5. For the user, total expenses for the first year is $785

    $385 trading fee + $400 storage = 2.45 dash​

    6. For the user, total expenses for 5 years (excluding final exchange charges) is $2385

    $785 + (4 x $400)​

    Meanwhile, Vaultoro uses his cold storage dash to earn rewards:

    7. A masternode currently has an estimated payment of $61.69 per day.


    8. A masternode currently has an estimated annual payment of $22,516.85

    $61.69 x 365 = $22,516.85 (70.42 dash)​

    9. The investor has given 281 dash to Vaultoro (see point 2). Therefore, Vaultoro's cold storage (masternodes or masternode shares) is earning them $6327.23 every year.

    $22,516.85 * 0.281​

    10. Based on this single user investment, Vaultoro's profit for the first year will be $7112.23

    $6327.23 + $785 (see points 5 and 9)​

    11. Based on this single user investment, Vaultoro's profit for 5 years will be $32,421.15

    $6327.23 * 5 + $785​

    12. Vaultoro masternode income from user investment overshadows the user's trading fees and storage fees:

    $6327.23 (see point 9) compared to $785 (see point 5)​

    One can argue, regardless of which side of the trade the user is on, they are swapping the volatility of dash with the stability of gold. It's their choice and I do not argue with this.

    However, based on the numbers above, it seems to me, this is a very profitable venture for Vautoro with little downside. Surely such profitable venture should be funded from their own pocket. They cannot, after all, make such profits by exchanging bitcoin for gold.
     
  27. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    862
    Trophy Points:
    183
    ...though you can also withdraw to Bitcoin Cash, right?
    https://blog.vaultoro.com/2017/11/20/bitcoin-cash-update/

    Just wondering how much you was paid to do that?
     
  28. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    862
    Trophy Points:
    183
    Looks like Ethereum is on their radar, a seven digit investment by FinLab:
    https://www.finlab.de/index.php?id=2

    "Das Investment von FinLab nutzt Vaultoro für den Ausbau seiner Produkte zu Multi-Asset-Plattformen. Weitere Edelmetalle wie Silber, Platin und Palladium sowie (Krypto-)Währungen wie Bitcoin oder Ethereum sollen über alle Produkte hinweg integriert werden."​

    Translated:

    "FinLab's investment leverages Vaultoro to grow its products into multi-asset platforms. Other precious metals such as silver, platinum and palladium as well as (crypto) currencies such as Bitcoin or Ethereum should be integrated across all products."
    In return, what does FinLab get from Vaultoro? They made the deal with no timeline?
     

Share This Page