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[Pre-Proposal] The Dash Hardware Wallet

If this becomes a proposal, would you vote for it?


  • Total voters
    18
Well, yes, but then again, on day one of public release, I expect ALL sources and hardware to be open and only then could anyone start adding extra cryptos.
Yeah, me too, I expect it to be opensource. But that doesn't prevent to come to an agreement about exclusivity for a while with the PO. Even though it's open source, you well know that it would take some time for any competitor to be able to produce is hardware.

But here's the thing.. I see absolutely no reason why it can't be multi-crypto with predominant dash branding, from card design to packaging; "Dash Multicard"
That's basically the debate. What's benefit more to Dash : a product with dash only or a product with various cryptos ? I have not that much opinion on the matter, I see good arguments on both side.

Actually @roland, if you go through with your proposal, I would advise you to prepare yourself to make some modifications to your proposal depending on how go the votes (if for example the community is actually looking for a multi-crypto hardware wallet as described by GrandMasterDash, then being flexible will give more chance to pull it off)
 
tion for a reasonably secure storage of your private keys. However, the hardware wallets available today are mostly complicated to use or technically inadequate for the task. They are primarily designed for those who hold 100’s or 1000’s of BTC and use a PC to manage their funds occasionally.
Dear community,

Before getting into all the details about me, my motivation, experience and all the other stuff, let me put the idea first. I strongly believe the Dash ecosystem needs a hardware wallet! Not just support for any hardware wallet, but the best hardware wallet ever.

Meet the Dash Hardware Wallet
View attachment 4743

My name is Roland Hänel, I’m the VP of R&D at Q-loud GmbH in Germany, a company that design, builds and operates “full stack solutions” in the IoT space. My team and myself design and implement embedded hardware, gateway nodes and cloud software stacks. I studied Electrical Engineering and Information Technology and received my M.Eng. degree from the University of Technology in Aachen in 2001. Actually, on the day I defended my thesis I also sold my startup company to QSC AG, Germany’s biggest DSL network operator at that time. I eventually stayed with QSC and helped building the nationwide DSL network, later the all-IP and VoIP networks as the head of the Network Design department. When QSC later decided to move into the Cloud and IoT business, took over responsibility for all development activities in this area.

As an individual, I have followed the blockchain technology area with growing interest over the last year. However, I have to admit that I learned about Dash only a couple of months ago. But what I learned is definitely what sparked my interest, because in my opinion the goals of Dash are exactly the key points of what matters: create an instant, private, secure money that everyone can use. Just as simple as that. Don’t focus on whether your signatures are put in the first, middle or last part of the block. Don’t focus on scripting stuff to help people build thousands of other coins on top of the system. Just put a decentralized, digital cash in the hands of the people!

At the core of any reasonable crypto currency, so with Dash, you hold the money you own, not a bank controls it. This is done through your ownership of your private keys. These we have to guard like the banks guard the money given to them right now. We can argue whether the effort that the banks put into this task is appropriate, but I think we can agree that with crypto currencies right now, just put the private keys on your smartphone is not really the appropriate way if this is more than a couple of Dash.

A hardware wallet is – in theory – the perfect solution for a reasonably secure storage of your private keys. However, the hardware wallets available today are mostly complicated to use or technically inadequate for the task. They are primarily designed for those who hold 100’s or 1000’s of BTC and use a PC to manage their funds occasionally.

What about a hardware wallet suitable for everyday use with your smartphone, tablet and PC? Maybe a device that can even be used at Point-of-Sale installations without any smartphone? This is my pre-proposal outlined in this post, the Dash Hardware Wallet.

What does Dash get with this proposal (“what do you deliver?”)

I propose the development and mass production of a new, specific hardware device: the Dash Hardware Wallet. This device features
  • physical size roughly 50mm x 20mm x 100mm, see picture for size comparison with a 2€ coin (nearly the same size as a US Quarter coin)
  • rugged, spill-proof (at least), yet nice-looking polycarbonate housing/enclosure
  • powered by batteries, 2 * AAA or 3 * AAA (design decision taken later)
  • communication interface Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)
  • reasonably sized, high-resolution TFT or OLED display
  • PIN pad to unlock / authorize transactions
Basically, imagine the following use case together with the Dash smartphone app: Just launch the app and watch your funds as usual. If you just receive funds, no need to even take the hardware wallet out of your pocket. If you send funds, do everything in the app as you’re used to. Then, as a last step, take out the hardware wallet, verify the destination address and amount on the screen. Enter the PIN on the hardware wallet’s keypad, press the Dash button: done.

Bluetooth will enable a much, much better user experience than all solutions based on USB connectivity. It furthermore allows the device to be hermetically sealed and thus more rugged and less susceptible to all types of “electrical attacks”. Bluetooth might even enable further use cases, such as connecting the hardware wallet directly with a Point-of-Sales terminal. Imagine you want to pay your coffee at starbucks, just take out your hardware wallet, the screen shows the merchant’s address and amount, you enter your PIN and that’s it. Sure, the same thing you could already do on your phone today, but this will never be really secure!

Technical details (“what will you do with the funding?”)

I’ll try to get this first post reasonably short, it’s still a pre proposal. However here are some details of action items that I plan for this project.

Development activities:
  • hardware design (schematics, PCB, BOM, …)
  • prototype creation, testing & verification
  • define Bluetooth LE API for relevant crypto function (wallet initialisation, receive, send, …)
  • implementation of the Bluetooth LE API for crypto functions on the target (KW41Z)
  • generic firmware development, including secure update feature (via Bluetooth LE)
  • design of enclosure (3D modeling), verification using 3D prototypes (STL, vacuum casting)
Testing / certification:
  • testing for compliance with EU regulations (RED, 2014/53/EU), mark with "CE"
  • testing for compliance with US/Canada regulations (FCC, IC), mark with FCC/IC
  • safety testing (UL, CSA, Intertek or equivalent certification)
Production setup / tool development:
  • injection molding tools (assume 2 tools, S136 steel, high polishing required), test shots
  • PCB manufacturing setup costs (tools, stencil etc.) for mass production
  • production flash and test tools (bed of nails, programming stations, …)
  • first production run (including purchasing/procurement, line setup, worker setup, …)
  • setup of independent production quality supervision (SGA or equivalent)
Project management, coordination, accounting

Mass production
  • ramp up mass production and produce a first run of 10,000 devices

Budget (“how much money do you need?”)

Current project planning shows a total project budget of USD $893,000. If we conservatively estimate a Dash value of $230 (roughly a 90 day average), that’s 3578 Dash.

We would apply for a payment of about 360 Dash per month for a period of 10 months (total project duration).

Note that this amount includes the full development and certification efforts as well as the production of the first 10,000 devices. So, even if you set all development stuff to zero value, we get the individual device at a price of $89.3 per piece, which is pretty decent for the first production run.

There will be more details on budget planning if I decide to go forward with a formal proposal. Feel free to ask any question right away beforehand if you like.

Short term benefits

The first production run will yield 10,000 end devices. Since these have been paid for with the budget, we cannot not sell them for our profit, they belong to the Dash network!

We could for example (just some thoughts)
  • use them as giveways at conferences, events etc.
  • provide any masternode owner one device for free (hope for a multiplier effect)
  • give them all away for a small amount of Dash (e.g., 0.01 Dash) as a promotion, only one per person/shipping address, to get people into using the app / Dash in general
  • ...more ideas to come...
If you have any suggestions how to maximize the value of these 10k devices, please let me know.

Long term benefits

We plan to make all development outcomes open source (MIT license preferred were possible and non conflicting, e.g. with GPL stuff). I feel obliged to do this because development is funded by the network and knowledge should not be kept private by us. Anyhow, because this is a security device, making stuff open source also allows for more trust and better verification by third parties (formal of just anyone interested in this stuff).

Note that as with any high-volume hardware development, the benefit is not only the development outcome, but also the ability to run mass production per se. Therefore, we set a project goal of target cost (COGS) for the finished device of $22, which would in turn enable a future retail price (including all retail margins, shipping, duties etc.) of $49. This would place the Dash Hardware Wallet in a very aggressive market position (“best product – best price”). Some might consider this the biggest impact of this proposal.

Timeline (“when can you deliver?”)

As this is a project that covers the development of new hardware (and firmware), covers testing and formal certification as well as a mass market production ramp up, we estimate an (ambitious) timeline of 10 months for the whole thing.

Risks (“can you really pull that off?”)

Yes I can! Yes we can! My team and I have proven several times that we can develop, test, certify and also mass produce such designs. We have created complex industrial control solutions that only run in batches of 100 pieces as well as consumer electronics devices that run in batches of 100,000 units. We have successfully dealt with European (RED directive) and American regulatory bodies (FCC, IC). We know what to source in far-east and what to source in Europe or the US. Hardware projects always have a very special risk of delay, but I think the timeline is a realistic one. If we get a month’s delay in the end, we have to fight through it, at least it won’t increase costs (so funding interval stays as 10 months fixed).

Of course we depend on others to make this contribution really have a large effect. Integration of the Dash Hardware Wallet into the Dash Wallet App needs to be done by the development team of the App. But I'm pretty sure that if we have a great product, they'll be more than eager to do that.

My last words for today (it’s close to midnight here)

I hope I included enough details to at least convince you that I have spent more than a few brief thoughts on this idea. On the other hand I hope that I didn’t steal your time by just including too much stuff.

There’s certainly more to discuss, more to share.

This is why I take the opportunity to present you this project as a pre proposal.

I’m looking forward to your comments, get an idea if you like the idea or not, what to improve etc., and then make the right proposal for the final stage. Or to forget the idea altogether?

Yours,
Roland

i like this idea very much but this is a very complicated project to pull off and the budget is way too high per se so you will need a ton of trust from the MNOs

right now the cost of trezor is $100 ish , and soon they come up with a cheaper model for say $10-20 and include the feature of supporting smart phones using bluetooth etc , what happens then ? wouldnt everyone prefer trezor because they are so well trusted already
 
Couple questions, purely from
  1. Will this device be able just to sign a transaction, or also to communicate with each other to create a transaction and sign it, so it could be transmitted to the network later?
  2. Will the hardware be capable of working as an contactless debit card, if there would be a solution/bank interested in integrating with it? TenX is the first one that comes to mind...
 
right now the cost of trezor is $100 ish , and soon they come up with a cheaper model for say $10-20 and include the feature of supporting smart phones using bluetooth etc , what happens then ? wouldnt everyone prefer trezor because they are so well trusted already

Good point. So, we agree that the products currently in the market (Trezor, ...) are both too expensive and at the same time don't have the technical features (e.g. Bluetooth) to be really useful for at least one important use case.

My proposal is: this situation means that there is the opportunity to make a difference, to create something better. And to do it for Dash.

Yes, if you don't like to take the risk, just wait and probably one day these features will appear in other products as well. And then it'll be for Bitcoin and Ethereum first.

I know I need to gain more trust here, point taken. This is why I'll will seriously refine the proposal.

But just to say "it's too risky, let's wait for the others" is the road to failure. Why create Dash in the first place? Wouldn't it have been better to just wait, maybe Bitcoin also gets a master node network some day? Why taking the risk to create an iPhone, when Nokia owns the market and might bring a better phone to the market soon?
 
Good point. So, we agree that the products currently in the market (Trezor, ...) are both too expensive and at the same time don't have the technical features (e.g. Bluetooth) to be really useful for at least one important use case.

My proposal is: this situation means that there is the opportunity to make a difference, to create something better. And to do it for Dash.

Yes, if you don't like to take the risk, just wait and probably one day these features will appear in other products as well. And then it'll be for Bitcoin and Ethereum first.

I know I need to gain more trust here, point taken. This is why I'll will seriously refine the proposal.

But just to say "it's too risky, let's wait for the others" is the road to failure. Why create Dash in the first place? Wouldn't it have been better to just wait, maybe Bitcoin also gets a master node network some day? Why taking the risk to create an iPhone, when Nokia owns the market and might bring a better phone to the market soon?

you sound like a very smart guy , so welcome to the team :)


My fundamental issue with this idea (not proposal ) is that this product is not a great innovation per se, its an incremental one which can be easily replicated by likes of trezor. Given the fact hardware wallets need a lot of trust in the company that does them , by the time you get started and people start buying your thing, trezor will easily copy those features and implement them. Now if you say the HD wallet does something very interesting for dash alone like say it supports certain extra feature for dash users like i dont know quicker voting for MNOs or quicker private send or something like that i will be happy to back it, but otherwise i wouldnt.

I had a slight different idea and feel free to give me feedback on it ,

how about having a dash pay card with contactless ( just like a normal debit card etc ) which has one key of multisig wallet , the other key being on the phone or something and i can freeze the card from my wallet immediately. This card doesn't need to be a visa enabled etc just does dash so there are no restrictions on what type of merchants that can accept it, now you might be saying an App can already do it ,but phones run out of juice or internet very easily so having a dash card with contactless is incredibly convenient plus any merchants can accept it right way ( getting visa approval for merchants is tedious and costly ). Reading QR codes is not all that fun tbh compared to the contactless card.

welcome to the team again and nice to hear lots of ideas from people you like you
 
Couple questions, purely from
  1. Will this device be able just to sign a transaction, or also to communicate with each other to create a transaction and sign it, so it could be transmitted to the network later?
  2. Will the hardware be capable of working as an contactless debit card, if there would be a solution/bank interested in integrating with it? TenX is the first one that comes to mind...

1. Yes, this device can do both. For a first use case, I see the "just verify and sign a transaction" use case, just like any hardware wallet does today (only using Bluetooth here). This means the device works together with a wallet application on a smartphone, tablet or PC. But I have the clear vision that in a next step (as outlined in the proposal already), the device could also create a transaction on its own. For example in a point-of-sale use case: you walk up to the counter of a store, the device connects to the cash register via bluetooth, gets the amount and destination address of the merchant, creates the transaction, you confirm it on the screen/keypad, the device sends the signed transaction to the merchant via Bluetooth. In this case, you don't need an Internet connection at all. The merchant would publish the transaction to the blockchain (masternode network in case of Dash), get a final confirmation from there and then the transaction is done.

2. Technically yes (for NFC we'd have to include another antenna, but that's not a big thing, less than $1 additional cost). However: the concept of such a (debit) card is very different from a hardware wallet. And to be fair and honest here, to create a piece of hardware that is able to talk to a card reader is pretty easy, but there are other things in this ecosystem that are the hard ones. It won't help you much to just create an NFC card, because as of today, the payment market is dominated by players like Visa and MasterCard. Take the TenX card for example. Their big plus is, that from a merchant's perspective, this is actually a Visa card. Thus, any Visa enabled terminal will accept the card (https://support.tenx.tech/hc/en-us/...he-TenX-card-a-Visa-or-Mastercard-debit-card-). All the magic happens on the backend, so when TenX gets a payment request from the Visa network (very simply put), they link that to a wallet, which actually resides in their system (not on your phone, and not on your card). The biggest plug of their system ("accepted nearly everywhere") in the short term is one of the biggest hurdles in the long run: TenX will serve the vision to make crypto spendable. It won't get rid of the banks. Because it only works because a big bank operates the system (Visa). Don't get me wrong about the TenX card: this is a great product, with a real market, with a mass market perspective. The concept of a hardware wallet is to have your own bank in your pocket. This is "more revolutionary", more new, more risky. But my opinion is, we need to address that, too.
 
@roland you sure talk a lot. Can we please see working demos and prototypes? Thanks.

Keep calm. As you might know, demos and prototypes require time and effort to make.

I consider it good product design practice to get some opinion beforehand, and then take the chance to create a prototype that at least tries respect some of the feedback I got.

Remember you were the first to dismiss the original design as "ugly", so I'll probably not bother to 3D print that and rather go for another idea.

Be assured that this project will be much more about "making", not "talking". But I think the comments here in the forum are very valuable, so please allow me to take the opportunity to discuss a little bit about them.
 
@roland you sure talk a lot. Can we please see working demos and prototypes? Thanks.

That's the whole point of the pre-proposal process, to come to agreement on what is needed, and how to deliver it and what is possible and at what price.

People get shot down with great regularity for not having a robust/extensive pre-proposal conversation.

It seems obvious that we are not there yet.
 
I would vote yes for this.
I would be even more likely to vote for adding support for Dash into each of the other hardware wallets (just software/firmware updates) for Trezor, and KeepKey. Ledger already supports Dash.
 
I would vote yes for this.
I would be even more likely to vote for adding support for Dash into each of the other hardware wallets (just software/firmware updates) for Trezor, and KeepKey. Ledger already supports Dash.

?? Trezor supports Dash does it not? I have never touched one, but that was my understanding...
 
The trezor, keepkey, and ledger all do dash. I have tried the keepkey and the ledger. The ledger is far superior as the keepkey doesn't even let you adjust the fee. I was surprised by how basic the keepkey was. It's really all down to software that really needs to be improved on these to add all the features possible. I paid $55 or ledgers.

I haven't had time to read all this but I don't believe dash should have a exclusive hardware wallet. Wallets are a platform and if they only support one thing then the adoption will be less. If someone sees a $25 dollar HW wallet that supports one coin and another that supports 20 for double the price it can't compete very well. There has to be specific goals in mind that allow you to compete and you have to be able to counter what the competition has. We have yet to see the generation 2 ledger nano, trezor or keepkey. That is a big risk to take on and i don't want to see effort wasted.
 
The OP was open to the idea of supporting multiple tokens, but wanted to make clear that he wanted to serve Dash. Some previous proposals have been criticized because we ended up paying for the other coins' integration into xyz. Thus he was willing to do a Dash exclusive wallet if that's what we want.
 
i think we should vote yes , because this project is one of the mega projects that is visionary just like the evolution
 
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