Pre-Proposal System is Useless

dashly

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Based on the pre-proposal to reduce proposals fee from 5 Dash to 1 Dash, clearly the majority of people are in favor. The pole results confirm that in the pre-proposal.

YES - 62.9%
NO - 34.3%
ABSTAIN - 2.9%

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...-lowered-to-1-0-dash.14262/page-3#post-123079

The problem is, the pre-proposal voting doesn't reflect the votes of the people who control 25+ masternodes, who ultimately control the voting results.

http://dashvotetracker.com/history.html?ProposalID=250

What a sham! Take the few people that voted with 25 or more masternodes, and lowering the fee would clearly be on a trajectory to passing.

I will never be submitting a proposal through our voting system. At least not at 5 Dash, it's too unpredictable regardless of how serious you are and how good of an idea you think you have.
 
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David

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Based on the pre-proposal to reduce proposals fee from 5 Dash to 1 Dash, clearly the majority of people are in favor. The pole results confirm that in the pre-proposal.

YES - 62.9%
NO - 34.3%
ABSTAIN - 2.9%

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...-lowered-to-1-0-dash.14262/page-3#post-123079

The problem is, the pre-proposal voting doesn't reflect the votes of the people who control 25+ masternodes, who ultimately control the voting results.

http://dashvotetracker.com/history.html?ProposalID=250

What a sham! Take the few people that voted with 25 or more masternodes, and lowering the fee would clearly be on a trajectory to passing.

I will never be submitting a proposal through our voting system. At least not at 5 Dash, it's too unpredictable regardless of how serious you are and how good of an idea you think you have.
I agree that the poll numbers are kind of pointless. The real value of pre-proposals is that sometimes known "whales" will respond and give you an idea of what they are thinking. I think the thread itself is much more valuable than a poll. This particular proposal is a bit different, too, since it proposes a change to Dash's code (or at least to Sentinel). A lot of people think differently about those sorts of proposals than they do the ordinary "do we fund this idea" proposals.

While I like the idea of reducing proposal fees from their present level, I think he also lost a lot of support when he unilaterally decided to put up the proposal for 0.1 DASH instead of the "consensus" number of 1 DASH. Once that proposal failed miserably, he then put in a proposal for the "original" amount of 1 DASH, but asked for twice the proposal fee as payment, to cover his first debacle. How many people are voting no to the idea of a reduction in proposal fees, and how many are just voting no to this particular member?
 

dashly

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How many people are voting no to the idea of a reduction in proposal fees, and how many are just voting no to this particular member?
Good point, but I think that's a bad thing to base a decision on. I think it could scare away anybody from submitting a proposal like this for a very long time. I think we'll be stuck with 5 Dash proposals for the forseeable future even as Dash increases to higher and higher values.
 
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jimbursch

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It would be helpful to examine what went right and what went wrong with this proposal.

1. There is no such thing as a Pre-Proposal System. @Biltong is working on something to try to systematize pre-proposals, but that is a work in progress.

2. Forum polls, like every web poll that has ever existed, are worthless for discerning anything meaningful. The poll got 36 responses, of which 22 are yes votes and not all of them are MN operators. There are well over 4,000 masternodes and a margin of well over 400 yes votes is needed to pass. The poll is meaningless.

25+ masternodes, who ultimately control the voting results.
Where does that come from? To ultimately control the voting results, someone needs to be on control of 60% of the masternodes, roughly 2,400. This proposal has only received 344 "no" votes so far. To its credit, it is receiving more "yes" than "no" votes, but not by wide enough of a margin to pass, at the moment. But there is also still more time for votes. The supporters of the proposal should continue their campaign to win votes.
 

David

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Good point, but I think that's a bad thing to base a decision on. I think it could scare away anybody from submitting a proposal like this for a very long time. I think we'll be stuck with 5 Dash proposals for the forseeable future even as Dash increases to higher and higher values.
I doubt it. The dev team has discussed this a number of times and I'm pretty sure it's on the list of things to tackle. It's difficult, however, to make a proposal low enough to be affordable but high enough to avoid DDoS attacks. The issue is this: nobody on the team wants to just pick another arbitrary number (such as 1 DASH). They are doing research to find an evidence-based fee, rather than just picking a number out of thin air.

Remember that even if this proposal passes, it doesn't immediately accomplish anything on its own. It simply shows the dev team that the masternode owners care about the issue and want it addressed. This proposal would not force the dev team to code anything or to initiate any network upgrades. It's effectively just a very formal opinion poll. So no, I don't think we'll be stuck with the 5 DASH fee forever. I also don't think that this particular proposal, even if it did pass, would accomplish anything per se.
 
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Biltong

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.. reduce proposals fee from 5 Dash to 1 Dash, clearly the majority of people are in favor. ...
YES - 62.9%
NO - 34.3%
ABSTAIN - 2.9%

The problem is, the pre-proposal voting doesn't reflect the votes of the people who control 25+ masternodes, who ultimately control the voting results.
....
Hi Dashly,
You got me thinking:
I think the Pre-Proposal phase is invaluable for a number of reasons: Mostly because it gives time for the Originator to get feedback from the community. Feedback from a bunch of really bright people is undeniably a positive!

Just a couple of obvious examples:
  • Feedback can highlight crucial problems that need to be addressed before it’s formally proposed and you lose 5 Dash and waste our time.
  • Someone in the community might just point out that the Proposer is a known con-man/does not know what he’s doing and save us all Dash
  • Feedback might also highlight another area that needs attention/investigation – as just happened (crowd funding of fees).
Poll

I do think each pre-proposal should be submitted with a poll. A really good idea will have an exceedingly high % and the MNOs will take notice. If not, it is up to the Originator to find out why and adjust (if possible). The people who voted NO are listed. PM a couple of them ‘why?’ and adjust.

The poll is also an early indicator of ‘unmentioned’ problems. A lot of people won’t waste time posting their doubts – they will just vote NO.

However, a Pre-Proposal should, IMO, be posted for at least a month to give it time to be evaluated and fine tuned. If you rush this phase Dash will be wasted and opportunities missed. Be patient and make it better ;)

As the Pre-Proposal is fine-tuned (or problems discovered) people will change their votes and it’s only towards the end that the true vote will materialize.

And don’t think MNOs will take too much notice of a positive vote in any case. They have been around a long time and they have a lot more at stake than most of us and they know the system better. You better make sure you have a high % of YES votes. 62% might not cut it :rolleyes:
 
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GrandMasterDash

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This is exactly why I keep asking for MN only forum polls.. but apparently the forum isn't open source!

As for proposal fee, I think at the beginning of each month the proposal fee should be 1 dash. However, for every 100 proposals submitted, the fee goes up 1 dash.

Others have suggested the fee is proportional to the value being sought, but I think it's wrong to punish proposers simply because they want to be adventurous, after all, the fee is only intended to reduce spam. If the fee goes up relative to the number of submissions, then it will sort itself out.
 

Biltong

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This is exactly why I keep asking for MN only forum polls.....
I’m afraid that might cause a Elite vs plebs divide. A Noob who cannot vote will wonder ‘Why bother’. We need the noob input as well. They bring excitement, out-of-the-box thinking and see things with fresh eyes – they are not (yet) in a rut. A lot of noobs are also specialists in different fields.

And even ‘stupid’ suggestions often lead to good ideas.

Once a ‘sure fire’ idea gets voted down by the more experienced MNOs the noobs will wonder why and hopefully find out WHY… and learn. That has happened to me a lot lately. :rolleyes:
 

GrandMasterDash

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I’m afraid that might cause a Elite vs plebs divide. A Noob who cannot vote will wonder ‘Why bother’. We need the noob input as well. They bring excitement, out-of-the-box thinking and see things with fresh eyes – they are not (yet) in a rut. A lot of noobs are also specialists in different fields.

And even ‘stupid’ suggestions often lead to good ideas.

Once a ‘sure fire’ idea gets voted down by the more experienced MNOs the noobs will wonder why and hopefully find out WHY… and learn. That has happened to me a lot lately. :rolleyes:
When I say "MN only", I mean in terms of poll responses, not creation. All forum members would still be able to create polls, it's just that a poll could be created such that it only seeks a tentative non-binding response from MN badge holders.
 

demo

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When I say "MN only", I mean in terms of poll responses, not creation. All forum members would still be able to create polls, it's just that a poll could be created such that it only seeks a tentative non-binding response from MN badge holders.
And why not allow everybody to vote in the exact same question, and then implement filters in the voting results for the ones who wish to distinguish the answer they gave the MN badge holders?
This will keep the community united. Why you insist of separating the community to Elite vs Plebs?
 

GrandMasterDash

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And why not allow everybody to vote in the exact same question, and then implement filters in the voting results for the ones who wish to distinguish the answer they gave the MN badge holders?
This will keep the community united. Why you insist of separating the community to Elite vs Plebs?
I'm not intending to split a community, I'm okay with some kind of filter. I just want to know I can setup a poll and get a better idea of how a vote might go.
 

demo

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I'm not intending to split a community, I'm okay with some kind of filter. I just want to know I can setup a poll and get a better idea of how a vote might go.
If this forum was opensource, then such a filter could be implemented very easy.

But @moocowmoo doesnt want to implement a MN badge holders vote distinguish solution, for unknown reasons.

Is it maybe because he wants to get paid for doing this?
Does he maintain this closedsource forum just to have few developers who can implement things and thus avoid the competition?
Is it maybe because he is already very rich, and he just dont care at all?

What other possibilities do you think may exist, that prevent @moocowmoo to implement such a useful feature?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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If this forum was opensource, then such a filter could be implemented very easy.

But @moocowmoo doesnt want to implement a masternodes vote distinguish solution, for unknown reasons.

Is it maybe because he wants to get paid for doing this?
Does he maintain this closedsource forum just to have few developers who can implement things and thus avoid the competition?
Is it maybe because he is already very rich, and he just dont care at all?

What other possibilities do you think may exist, that prevent @moocowmoo to implement such a useful feature?
He's just a super busy person.
 

demo

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He's just a super busy person.
A super busy person who imposed a closed source forum, in order for him to remain the only one super busy? :rolleyes:

Although super busy, he implemented the MN badge holders feature because amanda asked him.
What if someone asks @amanda_b_johnson to ask @moocowmoo to implement a MN badge holders vote distinguisher. Can she do it, or is she also superbusy?

The plague of the superbusy persons must end somehow. Superbusy persons are persons prone to centralization, thus against the initial nature of DASH.
 
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Biltong

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When I say "MN only", I mean in terms of poll responses, not creation. All forum members would still be able to create polls, it's just that a poll could be created such that it only seeks a tentative non-binding response from MN badge holders.
You mean have two polls on the thread. That would be interesting and serve the 'teaching' function. Not sure what would be needed to implement though, but I like the idea.
 

Biltong

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A Troll aims to boost his own ego; abuse others; disrupt people from benefitting the community by long winded nonsense arguments.

Arguing with a troll feeds his ego; wastes your and the communities time by creating empty threads.

How to recognize a troll? (for noobs) Click on his picture/messages – random sample of messages.

If 9 out of 10 are negative/disruptive/nonsense/abusive – he is a Troll.

What to do? If you don't have much time: Click ‘Ignore’ on his profile or If you want to defend the community: Click the troll meme for each and every post he makes. After a certain number of ‘troll’ memes his message is made invisible.
 

dashly

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This is exactly why I keep asking for MN only forum polls.. but apparently the forum isn't open source!
It would be good as long as it takes account of the number of masternodes each person controls for voting. This would give much more accurate poll results. Not all of us want a masternode badge though, so we would need to be able to register without requiring the badge. @demo has the best idea to allow anybody to vote but distinguish results with a filter.
As for proposal fee, I think at the beginning of each month the proposal fee should be 1 dash. However, for every 100 proposals submitted, the fee goes up 1 dash.
I like that idea a lot... maybe a variation of it though where you would start off at 1 Dash and go up by .5 every 10 proposals. That would prevent spam and keep fees relatively low.
 

GrandMasterDash

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It would be good as long as it takes account of the number of masternodes each person controls for voting. This would give much more accurate poll results. Not all of us want a masternode badge though, so we would need to be able to register without requiring the badge. @demo has the best idea to allow anybody to vote but distinguish results with a filter.

I like that idea a lot... maybe a variation of it though where you would start off at 1 Dash and go up by .5 every 10 proposals. That would prevent spam and keep fees relatively low.
Yes, I'd go along with that. With this scaling, by the time it escalated to 4.5 dash, we'd have 79 proposals, and the 80th proposal would cost 5 dash.
 

Biltong

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Yes, I'd go along with that. With this scaling, by the time it escalated to 4.5 dash, we'd have 79 proposals, and the 80th proposal would cost 5 dash.
Can this be done? How difficult/costly in terms of hours taken away from Evo/dangerous? No idea what coding will be needed. My coding days are long gone :(
 

demo

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How difficult/costly in terms of hours taken away from Evo/dangerous?
Obviously if the governance decision is taken by the masternodes, implementation proposals by various free lancer developers will appear into the governance system. The Free lancer developers do not belong to the core team, and are much more cheap than the core team is. So there is no big cost, neither hours are taken away from Evo (as long as no core team member is occupied on this).

Your last excuse is the well known "dangerous" excuse, which is designed to spread FUD to the code ignorants. Are you a spy or smth?
 
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TroyDASH

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Do not take a poll on a forum where there are zero prerequisites to signing up and voting, to be representative of the masternode stakeholders.

The purpose of a pre-proposal is to gather feedback. Feedback from people who have been with Dash for a longer time, or who have a masternode badge, or who have a lot of posts, or have already worked for Dash, or especially core team members, should be weighed accordingly as a better indicator of where the wind is blowing. Of course everyone can contribute value to the conversation, but with respect to having a barometer for masternode sentiment, looking at only the results of the forum poll is just about the worst way to go about it.
 

TroyDASH

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Yes, it will all be fine until the government raids the forum servers to find out how many masternodes everybody owns and what are their e-mails and IPs.
The government could already do that to dashcentral.

Idk how many people would go along with it though, it's one thing to prove that you have a masternode, it's another thing to intentionally release for public view how many masternodes you have. Some whales like otoh are more transparent about it and might be willing to do it, idk it would be interesting to see
 

lynx

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The government could already do that to dashcentral.
And that's one reason not to use it (or to take precautions when using it) if you thing they would be interested in you.

it's one thing to prove that you have a masternode, it's another thing to intentionally release for public view how many masternodes you have
To be fair, the system can be designed to count your votes without revealing how many MNs you have.