Pre-proposal: If you build it, they will come

thesavoyard

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TLDR;

We are asking for 3 things: (please see the bottom for cost estimates and timeframes)

· Funds to create custom ATM software for Genesis Satoshi 2 model, which will be open sourced and managed by the community. Operators will use it because it will save them money.

· Expansion of our ATM network by 6-10 Genesis Satoshi 2 ATMs. We have an existing partnership with Unibail-Rodamco, Europe largest shopping mall owners.

· Seed money for our exchange ICO, this will fund bounties, advertising and legal fees. Benefits for Dash to be discussed.


Hello Dash community, many of you know me. I have a business that was started on a Dash proposal. I’m a member of the community and I’ve been open about many of the challenges we’ve faced along the way. We’ve made friends that will open the doors to Europe for our ATM business and Dash as well. But we still have some kinks to work out.

We have decided to stop approaching businesses in the Cryptocurrency market and build a reliable network ourselves. We believe we have a more effective way to advance Dash adoption without relying on businesses that have little motive to adopt Dash.

I hope you excuse the informal nature of the pre-proposal as it is intended to open a discussion, so we can further refine our ideas. We will outline our challenges and our solutions, I hope this conversation can shine a light on the problems we face and maybe change the way we approach adoption.

Problems with Dash ATMs

Currently, there are two manufacturers who support Dash, in a very limited way. For ATM owners, aesthetics, operation system, quality of software and exchange support are all essential. Currently, the Dash supporting ATMs get a pretty low score in these fields. We can continue to approach manufacturers, but they are not hurting for business. They have little motive to add Dash.

We would like to use the highest quality machines in the industry and sell Dash with multiple exchange support. Giving us plenty of options if an exchange fails. Kraken is currently the only exchange supported on our machines and we’ve had a ticket open for a month to fix the API issues.

We have a solution that is more cost effective than trying to pay manufacturers to incorporate Dash. It will empower the Dash community to approach operators, and give operators a motive to incorporate Dash. The most popular ATM manufacturer of ATMs is Genesis Coin. They stated they do not intend to add Dash in the immediate future.

The Solution

We will commission a custom ATM and server software for Genesis machines. We have been in contact with Oodles Technology and they have agreed to make a custom software for the world’s most popular ATM. The Genesis Satoshi 2.

This will be an easy to use, .exe install software for both the machines and the servers. The software will be released as an open source software, allowing the community to adapt it to any hardware out there. Plugins for most hardware are available online.

Not only will the software be centered around Dash two-way functions, it will support multiple exchanges, allowing operators to move to a more reliable exchange that supports Dash if need be.

Currently, the most popular ATM in the world also comes with a software license that requires Genesis to host the server, they charge 1.5% for every transaction. That is based on the gross transaction value, so if an operator charges 5%, they only receive 3.5%. There are also legal issues in Europe for customer data hosted on servers outside the EU.

With this software, Dash can court operators directly, making adoption easy. Dash will have access to most of the ATMs in the world and a software that can be quickly adapted to other manufacturers. Saving operators money will have a huge psychological boost for Dash.

This will include custom Dash screensavers by default and the ability for operators to have a video help section on the ATM.

Non-Dash ATMs are expanding rapidly

Due to the hardware and exchange problems we’ve had, our expansion has been slowed. Our competitors are expanding faster. We do have superior locations, the only thing holding us back is the slow start and capital available.

With Unibail-Rodamco as our partners, we can have ATMs in most major EU cities. In high-traffic shopping centers that have between 10-20 million visitors a year. Our current machines, Almere has 1.3 million people that pass directly by it annually, while Amstelveen has almost one million. Having functional Dash ATMs in many more locations like this would drastically increase Dash’s exposure in Europe.

EU Exchange and Payment Processor

We have recently gained partners with banking experience, both are in the FinTech investment industry. More details on individuals will come once we submit a more formal proposal.

Our current team:

http://igisynergy.com/

http://cubecumulus.com/

https://www.die-finanzpiloten.de/

And of course us!

https://www.disaf.eu/

We are using an experienced Swiss business consultancy to manage the ICO. They will be introduced once I have their permission.

Ecovis, one of the largest legal firm franchises in the world is handling our licensing and ICO legal issues. They will likely handle escrow too if they accept.


This is the part I really want to discuss with the community. I will outline the project and benefits and our options.

We hope to create a pro-Dash exchange that has all the functionality of Bitstamp. We are perusing the EU electronic money license. This license will allow us to process fiat and cryptocurrency payments both for online retailers and brick and mortar stores.

We will roll out an exchange that does not deal in fiat until the license is obtained, then we will have fiat trading pairs, issue debit cards (if we aren’t blocked by Visa/Mastercard) and process payments.

This exchange will be open to the public, but always focus on serving business before private individuals. We will not do what every other exchange did and suspend business account approvals or neglect support for crypto-based business in order to approve more private accounts.

Our mission is to serve other business and will always be our top priority. That means ATM operators, small and large business that accept crypto as payment or any other related business. We hope to add reliability to the industry. We will also treat Dash the way others treat BTC and Ethereum. Dash will have full trading pair support and can be easily added to websites as a payment option.


We do have an exchange software provider who are responsible for dozens of exchanges around the world. We have multiple IT advisors who will be introduced when we submit a more formal proposal. This post has gone on too long, I can write all day and not cover half the details, so let me summarize where we want feedback.

· We are asking Dash for the ICO seed money, this will cover the token costs and promotions, along with some legal and advisory fees. Should we include more funds to expedite the license and begin rollout of the exchange without FIAT?

· Dash would be our sole ICO-presale. We would like to provide a direct benefit to Dash. Since we cannot yet legally give a % of the company to the Dash trust, would it be unethical or problematic to give ICO tokens to the Masternodes?

· Please state if you think if it would be better if we asked Dash to be our sole funder, rather than an ICO. Either way, Dash will get treated with the highest priority. An ICO just reduces the risk to the Dash treasury.

· I understand there are risks, but if we as the Dash community want something done, we need to start building it ourselves. It is reliance on others that is holding Dash back. We have a fully qualified business and finance team, we can get the licenses needed. We are looking for IT, especially exchange and blockchain knowledgeable. If you meet these qualifications and are interested in coming on as a partner please contact us. This means working for a future stake in the business.

Summary costs and timeline

· Dash ATM software by Oodles Technology- $35,000 to $50,000 depending on how many features. Delivery time is 3-5 months after work begins.

· 6-10 Genesis ATMs to expand our EU footprint, will carry Dash ASAP. Roughly $13,000 per unit. Total $78,000 to $130,000 deployed with Dash once the software is complete.

· Exchange with full payment processing functions. Cost estimates are all over, the EU license costs around $35,000, the exchange software around $70,000. There are many more costs between the ICO and actual deployment. Once we know the Masternodes thoughts are, we can give more accurate estimates. With Dash funding the exchange can be up in about 3 months with fiat integration closer to 9 months. With an ICO, add 6 months of fundraising.

· Another option is a traditional IPO, but that is less effective for startups. Existing companies that want to expand will do much better with an IPO.
 
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JOL

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thesavoyard

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Are you kidding? I have 2 ATMs installed and more on the way. Don't try and throw shade. Plus, you know little about the market. ATMs make up a much larger portion than you think. Nothing is going to replace ATMs. Why do you think banks keep increasing the number of ATMs?

Maybe you should read your own links... Also, stop posting on a newbie troll account. "We already try to trust you"

Please elaborate newbie account, how did you try and trust me? Given I did exactly as I said and went above and beyond, Dash is in all of our promotional materials, every newly registered account gets a "DISAF recommends Dash" with Dash digital cash logo. We've made promotional videos for Dash for free, no budget proposal. What have you done besides troll these forums and misunderstand business?

"I hope to get a 1 year least prepaid. I don't want some manager deciding cryptocurrencies are evil and forcing us out. I expect it will be between 250-350 euros downtown. If I am forced to move due to low profits or another reason, I'll replace the machine. Hopefully in the same area. If I can't, I'll move it to another EU city like Amsterdam."
 
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thesavoyard

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So JOL, while comically wrong, brings up some good points.

Access, ATMs are growing rapidly, 100% growth over the last year. They are growing because the market for them is growing. We can register clients in minutes, they wait weeks for existing exchanges. ATMs are currently the only way millions of users can access cryptos.

In order to sustain growth, we need more exchanges. We will be part of that, we have the team built and we're already raising funds. I'm asking Dash to participate.

Ease of use is the future, making apps and products designed for end users and not programmers is how we do it. Empowering business in the industry. Most of what the crypto world is doing right now is spinning their wheels, letting momentum slip away.
 

JOL

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Dear thesavoyard,

your proposal was :
Proposal “A_Dash_brand_ATM_in_downtown_Lyon“ (Completed)
MNO trust you (me too) : Votes: 565 Yes / 114 No / 25 Abstain

Payment start/end: 2017-03-20 / 2017-04-19 (added on 2017-03-19) Completed payments: 1 totaling in 70 DASH

Job done by MNO.

DAO give you 70 Dash for a ATM in Lyon.
You can aways said than you succed, well. But fact said no delivery what expected.

Everyone can read the links and have their own conclusion. They dont have to trust me.

PS :
What I do for Dash ? although it does not interest anyone, I do exactly what all MNO do.
We find 1000 Dash by MN then we provide a service in which we block our funds to serve the network.
When we provide the requested service we receive compensation in Dash, when we do not provide the services or we provide it badly, we are not paid. In addition we are not allowed to spend the millions put in the MN, because we prefer to provide MN for the network. In addition we take the responsibility to give funds to others to give them the opportunity to participate in the movement. Sometimes we are wrong and give our funds to the wrong people. We learn from our mistakes.

It may not suit you, but that's how Dash works
 

JOL

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It about private ATM companie sale Dash, Bitcoin and other digital cash ...

Can you show us a video of the ATM with Dash transaction ?
 

JOL

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Dear thesavoyard,

Basically, and it has nothing to do with the fact that you did not deliver what you had committed.

ATMs will become obsolete from my point of view, because:

1) - In many EU countries including France (In France a bill has been proposed to simply ban ATMs), ATM will either be banned or they will have to meet the KYC standard. With ID and fingerprint. What makes losing interest of using an ATM against money and remain anonymous.

2) - To buy legally, It is easy in France and in many countries of the EU to date to buy Dash by SEPA and Bank Card (uphold, cex, kraken, ...) without having to go in the street with cash and undergoing heavy transaction fees.

3) - To spend from Dash, if it's just to exchange them for fiat, there is no interest for a legal user, he just wants to be able to spend them on goods and services.

4) - Smartphone applications are the future, with POS that can easily be deployed.

5) - Peer-to-peer Fiat<-> Dash is the only way to stay anomimous.
 

Sean

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Jan 8, 2018
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Dear thesavoyard,

Basically, and it has nothing to do with the fact that you did not deliver what you had committed.

ATMs will become obsolete from my point of view, because:

1) - In many EU countries including France (In France a bill has been proposed to simply ban ATMs), ATM will either be banned or they will have to meet the KYC standard. With ID and fingerprint. What makes losing interest of using an ATM against money and remain anonymous.

2) - To buy legally, It is easy in France and in many countries of the EU to date to buy Dash by SEPA and Bank Card (uphold, cex, kraken, ...) without having to go in the street with cash and undergoing heavy transaction fees.

3) - To spend from Dash, if it's just to exchange them for fiat, there is no interest for a legal user, he just wants to be able to spend them on goods and services.

4) - Smartphone applications are the future, with POS that can easily be deployed.

5) - Peer-to-peer Fiat<-> Dash is the only way to stay anomimous.
1) "Banned or meet the KYC standard"??? This just means atms will have to toe the line in this country like every other one with a financial regulatory system ready to pretend to handle the ecosystem. As a grandfathered bitlicense applicant/holder in NYC for bitcoin atm's this doesn't mean the buisiness is hurting, it's begining. (Also there's never been a finger print on a crypto atm ever aside from early tests for the canadian senate in like late 2013... this statement could be borderline trolling) EDIT//: Wow... So I was super wrong, like eat a shoe wrong... not the first time, apologies JOL, so there are in fact ATM's scanning finger prints, but no regulations driving this... just operators going "above and beyond" for various reasons.

2) This implies that crypto ATMs are convenience devices rather than destination devices.... ATMs are necessity devices and the only real link into crypto for alot of individuals.

3) This is false... the ability to walk up and pull cash out of a machine with Dash instills a confidence that cannot be properly explained. Also, myself and other atm operators often set a 0% fee for cash withdrawl because most volume is buying and this just saves us ass pain on liquidity side if we use cash recycling hardware.

4) Cash is king

5) I don't think this is a primary driving feature at this time. Things could change.
 
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JOL

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1) "Banned or meet the KYC standard"??? This just means atms will have to toe the line in this country like every other one with a financial regulatory system ready to pretend to handle the ecosystem. As a grandfathered bitlicense applicant/holder in NYC for bitcoin atm's this doesn't mean the buisiness is hurting, it's begining. (Also there's never been a finger print on a crypto atm ever aside from early tests for the canadian senate in like late 2013... this statement could be borderline trolling)
https://www.disaf.eu/
"
Our AML Policy: (Full version on PDF)

DISAF VOF will not allow any fully anonymous transactions on any machine. A fingerprint scan & an ID scan will be required to deter criminal use.
Once the client is registered, they may use their fingerprint to access
their account and begin transacting."

Trolling ?
 

JOL

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/start-trolling/ from my point of view Dash in ATM is like IPV6 in minitel. /end-trolling/ ;)
 
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thesavoyard

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You are a troll, we do require fingerprint and registration and it isn't hurting our business at all. Most customers do not sit in their basement obsessed with anonymity, that's just you JOL. The general public uses ATMs, no one cares if you don't JOL.

I'm also aware you're the same troll who harassed my threads before, you do have a very specific way of butchering the English language. Stop making alt account to troll these forums, you know about as much about the markets as my cat.
 

JOL

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Dear thesavoyard,
I hope this will help you understand my point of view.

"Palm vein scans, which Robocoin promoted initially, or finger print scanning (although many machines are equipped with a finger print scanner) are rarely used or not used at all."
source : medium.com/@CoinATMRadar/pros-and-cons-of-using-a-bitcoin-atm-9e37c73919ec

For cash to bitcoin, 2089 ATM, other services 40024
source : https://coinatmradar.com/

exemple :
https://coinatmradar.com/blog/buy-or-sell-bitcoins-for-cash-bitcoin-atm-alternatives/

Good luck with your proposal.
 

ampp

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I would like to note that you should talk to Alt 36 as they have significant resources in this area. In one of the recent proposals they were planning to buy a lot of ATM's, but did not mention what brand as they are working private deals. I would contact them and perhaps they have partially compatible software coming down the line to reduce duplicate effort here.

I would escrow this as it is a hot topic, and if MNO's are concerned about how all these projects relate it may not get far.
 

thesavoyard

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I would like to note that you should talk to Alt 36 as they have significant resources in this area. In one of the recent proposals they were planning to buy a lot of ATM's, but did not mention what brand as they are working private deals. I would contact them and perhaps they have partially compatible software coming down the line to reduce duplicate effort here.

I would escrow this as it is a hot topic, and if MNO's are concerned about how all these projects relate it may not get far.
Thanks for the advice, I'll look into it. At the moment I'm pulling our offer off the table. We have other investors and since the masternodes can't be bothered to comment, we're taking our conversation to a more adult audience. This proposal conversation devolved into some libertarian troll questioning our AML/KYC policy, something that is not his business. I am a big fan of Evan Duffield's model, I just hope they can get the community issues worked out. At the moment, seems like a lack of adults in the community.
 

tungfa

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Are you kidding? I have 2 ATMs installed and more on the way. Don't try and throw shade. Plus, you know little about the market. ATMs make up a much larger portion than you think. Nothing is going to replace ATMs. Why do you think banks keep increasing the number of ATMs?

Maybe you should read your own links... Also, stop posting on a newbie troll account. "We already try to trust you"

Please elaborate newbie account, how did you try and trust me? Given I did exactly as I said and went above and beyond, Dash is in all of our promotional materials, every newly registered account gets a "DISAF recommends Dash" with Dash digital cash logo. We've made promotional videos for Dash for free, no budget proposal. What have you done besides troll these forums and misunderstand business?

"I hope to get a 1 year least prepaid. I don't want some manager deciding cryptocurrencies are evil and forcing us out. I expect it will be between 250-350 euros downtown. If I am forced to move due to low profits or another reason, I'll replace the machine. Hopefully in the same area. If I can't, I'll move it to another EU city like Amsterdam."

easy there
no need to throw “troll” around
PLEASE keep it civil and professional !!!

and i mean that to all sides - let the facts speak for themself - no need to get paranoid throwing insults !
 

thesavoyard

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JOL has been making alt accounts to troll threads for quite a while. As an English teacher, he has very specific mistakes in English. He just continuously digs for anything he can use as an argument with no real rationale behind it, that's a troll.

Like I said, I am withdrawing my offer. The Masternodes do no engage enough and seem to be more interested in ineffective promotions than real business proposals. I was already cooling on Dash a little, we've made bigger partners with less resources so we have been wondering what's going on with Dash. Once one of your high ranking core members suggested we risk those partnerships and target pornographers and weed sellers for our business, and even suggested that adding Dash payments to websites would be a negative thing, we started to become more leary.

I think we're just going to move on, good luck in the future.
 

tungfa

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JOL has been making alt accounts to troll threads for quite a while. As an English teacher, he has very specific mistakes in English. He just continuously digs for anything he can use as an argument with no real rationale behind it, that's a troll.

Like I said, I am withdrawing my offer. The Masternodes do no engage enough and seem to be more interested in ineffective promotions than real business proposals. I was already cooling on Dash a little, we've made bigger partners with less resources so we have been wondering what's going on with Dash. Once one of your high ranking core members suggested we risk those partnerships and target pornographers and weed sellers for our business, and even suggested that adding Dash payments to websites would be a negative thing, we started to become more leary.

I think we're just going to move on, good luck in the future.
pornographers ?
come on now - easy there ! where is this coming from please ?

no need to overreact here
proposals are not the easiest to pull of - we all have seen it happen before
but taking this personal and running with a grutch is really not needed !
keep it professional and make your point without letting these emotions take over
 
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ampp

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I think a few things have changed in the last few months, before the assumption was that you needed to go after undeserved and overcharged fringe vendors on a pathway to mainstream adoption but luckily the mainstream adoption is arriving faster invalidating some of these perspectives. This was not just dash but a market wide perspective.

Anyway, don't assume every user on this forum is a dash enthusiast. We have trolls from other communities and a couple MNO trolls with the intent to reduce the effectiveness of dash. Unfortunately any public activity you will have to deal with it.
 

thesavoyard

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I'd love to pursue this proposal, but the only Masternode that responded was a forum moderator. I can ignore the troll easily enough, but I won't risk 5 Dash on a proposal that only has one person responding and only trying to undermine it. Now, I phrased my statement as politely as possible and I didn't lie, so take the information how you want.
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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I'd love to pursue this proposal, but the only Masternode that responded was a forum moderator. I can ignore the troll easily enough, but I won't risk 5 Dash on a proposal that only has one person responding and only trying to undermine it. Now, I phrased my statement as politely as possible and I didn't lie, so take the information how you want.
Sometimes discussions about proposals can be slow going on the forums. You should try a discussion on the Dash Nation on Discord, if you haven't already. If you frequented that chat, you would see that @JOL is a regular contributor there, only mostly in the French language channel. I don't consider him to be a troll.
 

Miner237

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I would like to note that you should talk to Alt 36 as they have significant resources in this area. In one of the recent proposals they were planning to buy a lot of ATM's, but did not mention what brand as they are working private deals. I would contact them and perhaps they have partially compatible software coming down the line to reduce duplicate effort here.
Alt36 project is not an ATM project it is a POS project look at it closer...it does not dispense CASH
 

thesavoyard

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I don't know a lot about alt 36, but they aren't likely doing anything like this. I won't spend 5 Dash on this, we've gotten support from other financiers.
 

thesavoyard

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Sometimes discussions about proposals can be slow going on the forums. You should try a discussion on the Dash Nation on Discord, if you haven't already. If you frequented that chat, you would see that @JOL is a regular contributor there, only mostly in the French language channel. I don't consider him to be a troll.
Really, so posting a dozen suggestive messages without any actual accusations of wrongdoing isn't trolling? Also, flooding someone's thread with sub-par market analysis isn't trolling? He could have made his statements and moved on but decided to troll instead.

I think the treasury is a potentially powerful tool, but I don't see it being used in an effective way. If you think Dash has already made it, or adoption will come without effort, you may have a nasty surprise. I hope you can take this as constructive criticism, I think honesty here is rare, maybe it's because of the way people react to it.