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Pre-Proposal Discussion: Dash WooCommerce Plugin

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by nmarley, Mar 10, 2016.

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Should Dash sponsor development of a free Dash plugin for WooCommerce? [see text]

Poll closed Mar 17, 2016.
  1. Yes

    90.5%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Maybe, let's discuss

    9.5%
  4. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Good morning (evening, etc.) my fellow Dashers!

    I see a lot of proposals popping up and it almost makes me not want to submit one... but I think the benefits to Dash outweigh any negatives of posting one (the negatives being trying to play the "game", to convince the Dash masternoders why this one should be accepted, etc.). Maybe I'm making too much of it. It's probably why I don't post a lot on here -- I worry too much about what other people think. Anyway, ...

    A few weeks ago I posted
    on DashTalk: https://dashtalk.org/threads/dashpay-woocommerce-plugin-coming-soon.8059

    ... about a WordPress/WooCommerce plugin that I've decided to undertake creation of.


    I initially didn't believe too much in the budget process, and even now, I really question some of the proposals that come across, and even more, the fact that some are getting approved. But that's consensus, right? That's democracy - I won't like everything that gets approved. So at that time I said that I'd decided against a budget proposal for this.

    Well, as I started wrapping up development of v0.0.1 of this plugin, I got to thinking more about it. I really want people to have access to this, and vastly more people will have access to it if it's 100% free (as in beer). People with really minimal tech skills will be able to accept *direct* Dash payments. I think that's something that can, and will, really benefit the Dash community and the currency.

    Along the same reasoning, I also don't think that too many people would buy it outright. Some definitely would, some have stated so here at DashTalk. But the majority probably won't. People just don't like to spend money on software. Especially if it's a one-off piece of software (versus, say, a SaaS product where you're also paying for server time, backend processing, etc).

    I'm also very pro-innovation, and I'd like to see more proposals focused on engineering and less on marketing and PR.

    What good will it do an online store owner to learn all about the benefits of Dash and then... not be able to take advantage of those, because it's all just "potential", because the software hasn't been written?

    I also think that this would also be a huge boon to Dash to be able to say that the Dash network itself directly sponsored open-source software which will allow anyone to directly accept Dash payments.

    So, the more I think about it, the more it seems like this would be perfect for a Dash budget proposal.

    I'd like to put this out for discussion.

    Is this something the community would be interested in? Sponsoring a free-forever, for anybody, open-source software plugin to allow people to accept Dash directly to their Electrum-Dash wallets?
     
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  2. koampapapa

    koampapapa New Member

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  3. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Yes, nmarley, but what do you think would be a fair price? That's kind of an important part of it.

    Hey, I'm sorry I rah rah'd behind the payment processor proposal with two virtually unknown people, it's just that it's true what they said about coinbase starting out and even so these two may never get venture capital and expand to anything useful, I think the "WILD WEST" culture of this space benefits well from being a little lenient on proposals where there is great need and few willing to take the steps necessary to fulfill those needs. After all, Evan just jumped in with both feet to create digital cash, no permissions necessary. I know though, that we're quickly coming to the point where we need to be more selective. I'm tightening up now too. That proposal hit a nerve though.

    PR, unfortunately, is kind of important. They say; if you build it, they will come - but they somehow need to know it was built first. No single piece of this puzzle can stand alone and it's kind of cool that people with experience from different points of view step up to the plate here to say "wait, we need this to happen too". I'm starting to think this decentralized thing is going to actually work for us. It forces us to be well rounded.

    Anyway, yes, having this app available for free would definitely get adoption going much better.
     
  4. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Well-known Member
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    Marketing drives development and merchant adoption. Dash plugin for WooCommerce would also need to be advertised. There are over 30,000 plugins for WordPress, CodeCanyon has over 700 plugins for WooCommerce alone.

    Rolex is the best known brand in its niche and yet still advertises on each Formula 1 race.
     
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  5. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    They won't adopt if it's all techno mumbo-jumbo. Dash still isn't DEAD SIMPLE to use for the average user. What's the point of people knowing all the benefits if it's "potential" benefits, with no concrete implementations?

    Example: Sure, we have InstantX. So what? It's still difficult to implement receiving an IX transaction, and the average shop owner (online or not) can't hope to take advantage of this at the moment. EXMO did it, but they're crypto nerds like the rest of us. IX in it's current implementation doesn't benefit the average Joe.

    Another example: Is average Joe going to understand why he needs to download software which takes hours to sync just to start sending obscure/"weird" looking magic internet money around the world? No. We need software (and hardware) for the average Joe.

    Our marketing & PR is doing just fine as-is. Until we have a reason to market, what's the use? Joe doesn't care about IX, because it really doesn't apply to him right now, only to crypto nerds.
     
  6. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Well-known Member
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    To be clear, I support your idea. I voted "YES" in the pool and would keep supporting it if you move forward.

    But if I would use your logic, I might say Dash WooCommerce Plugin, great. So now an average Joe with "really minimal tech skills will be able to accept *direct* Dash payments," and than what? Will he still need to "download software which takes hours to sync just to start sending obscure/"weird" looking magic internet money around the world," or not?

    Where's the DASH held?

    Your original post says, "direct payments to a Dash-Electrum wallet. Or any BIP32 wallet, but it uses the Electrum derivation paths, so the payments should just "magically" appear in an Electrum-Dash wallet." Well, "Electrum derivation path" makes it really simple for an average Joe.

    Do not get me wrong, I read all you posted, watched your video and think you may have something really needed here, no matter the valid points camosoul made. But as anything else in this life, nothing is as simple as we think it might be. And nothing lives in a limbo. The reality at the moment is that merchants, accepting BTC are still mostly converting it to fiat as soon as they receive it. Bitcoin: Technical Background and Data Analysis study by Anton Badev and Matthew Chen contains a wealth of data about it. With such a low worldwide adoption Dash attracts at the moment, your plugin seems less valuable as a merchant tool than it would be as a marketing tool.

    Cognitive dissonance at its best ;)
     
  7. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Thanks for your input.

    Obviously I can change the wording for Joe to understand. This is a discussion for the Dash community to vote on, and as such I've considered who I'm currently addressing and am trying to give as much information as possible to a technically literate audience.

    I've addressed some of the points camo made, and am going to address some others in a video pretty soon. But the basic gist is:

    1. Most people's familiarity with WooCommerce causes them to conflate the order creation/payment steps, because of how payments must be made using the legacy credit card system.

    2. FinTech changes the paradigm completely for payments such that it doesn't make sense to "preserve" the UX, e.g. what's the point of pressing "Place Order" after you've paid using the QR code already? If you forget to press the button, does it mean that your order's invalid? Even though you already send the payment?


    Again, I don't think marketing is bad. Just that I'd like to focus on technological innovation at the current moment and see more marketing/PR efforts in a few months' time, once our tech is built up a bit. I realize it's a chicken-and-egg problem. I'd rather err on the side of over-delivering on tech, than on over-delivering on hype and not being able to back up our claims.
     
  8. murtezx

    murtezx New Member

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    go for it 100%
     
  9. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Thanks for the input Tante. Yes, I agree that PR is important. Classic chicken and egg problem. If we hype a lot of things but can't deliver, what's the use? At the same time, I know it's very necessary. (But I thought so about the other PR that got voted down too... ).

    I was going to just gauge an initial response and see if it's something the community would be interested in.

    If the response is overwhelming, I will submit a proposal for 882 Dash — which at current prices as I type this is $4427.63 USD, but this morning was $3969.00 USD. (All crypto seems to be on a rise within the last few hours.)

    That's almost exactly 1/2 my previous monthly salary. And for the justification:

    * I've worked on this for a month solid. A little longer actually, about 6-7 weeks in all, but the last month has been working on this, engineering a solution which works within the confines of both WordPress and WooCommerce, and trying to get it *right*, the first time... re-factoring several times, a whole crap-ton of testing, etc.

    * If you compare the cost of software vs our current and previous PR/Marketing proposal budgets *for a single month*, this is not a lot at all. It would be a single-month payment.

    * If you compare the fully-loaded cost (meaning: full-time benefits, etc.) of a full-time programmer for one month, this isn't a lot at all. This is less than the average monthly salary for a junior developer.

    * The plugin requires a running instance of Insight-API-Dash in order to know an address balance, and detect incoming transactions. You can use your own instance, or the default, which is the one I'm hosting. That server costs money (currently $10/month, possibly more if the blockchain gets a lot bigger) and is an ongoing monthly cost to me, which I'm billed for every month, and will continue to be long after the proposal drops off the list. (And it's not a masternode, so I'm not getting paid to host it. Unfortunately.)

    Anyway, that's only if the response here is overwhelmingly in favor of this. If not, no problem. I don't want to submit a proposal which the community's not clearly in favor of.
     
  10. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Sounds good nmarley, now it's a matter of fighting for the coins available. But I think this is a no-brainer. Then again, it's easy to say yes to all these great ideas but at some point funds run out. At least we have some great choices this month. If for some reason your proposal doesn't get paid this month, please do try again next month!!!
     
  11. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    But I hate fighting. I'm a lover, not a fighter.* ;)

    *But I'm a fighter too, so don't get any ideas.
     
  12. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Well, I guess what I'm saying is keep talking so people don't forget this, I'm noticing other proposals have people who don't come back to keep engaged in their threads and they're losing votes due to lack of confidence. Just an observation :)
     
  13. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Right, got it. Thanks!

    I'll try and reply to everyone who has a question/concern here.

    I intend to wait a few days and see if it gets any significant attention.
     
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  14. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    I'm all for anything that adds to Dash's user base and ecosystem in a significant way. You would have my vote.
     
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  15. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    YES!
     
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  16. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Thanks guys. Now I just need another few hundred votes of confidence. ;)
     
  17. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    nmarley,

    Are you detecting InstantX? This is the biggest advantage for Dash. It will enable instant downloads/purchases/etc = HUGE!. In your video you have a note about instantx, but I didn't see if this was detecting it. If you are incorporating instantX. Great idea! Fully Support.

    If you are not looking for instantx, then is this any better than using another coin and the shapeshift API?

    You could use a private/public key. Then import that into any type of wallet.

    Do you have any flexibility with the plugin - maybe make it work with html or non wordpress sites? Any plans for a future proposal to add to other platforms?

    https://www.coinpayments.net/ says they have woocommerce plugin and they accept Dash. I doubt they have instantx.
     
    #17 Solarminer, Mar 12, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2016
  18. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Good points, thanks!

    Re: InstantX, yes I have plans for an implementation. Current version does not have it, and I've had to feature-lock this in order to actually get something released ever. Otherwise I'd keep building on it and it would never be finished. Actually running a SPV-type client from WordPress would be difficult if not impossible, so it would have to connect to an InstantX index ATM, 'til Evolution is released. There are ways to make this not necessarily a 3rd party dependency (e.g. running your own instance of an IX index service).

    RE: then is this any better than using another coin and the shapeshift API?

    Well, for one, it's directly in Dash, and also, when I started writing this, there weren't many (any?) options for a WordPress store owner who wants direct-to-wallet transactions, e.g. no middleman like Bitpay. About a month or so ago, the guy who wrote the initial Bitcoin/Electrum plugin claims he updated it for newer-style Electrum keys (xpub), so that might be an option. (But I've seen his code, and I would not use it at any rate).

    So, it is possible for people to use Bitcoin and Shapeshift. Of course that's not a direct payment into your Electrum-Dash wallet, like this is. There were also some Dash liquidity issues on Shapeshift just the other day. Obviously this plugin precludes all that.


    RE: Flexibility — It currently ties in strongly to WooCommerce. I do plan to look into wp-e-commerce, which is another popular WP e-Commerce plugin, to see how easily it can be integrated and what would need to be refactored/what components of the current version could be re-used, etc.



    For HTML and non-WordPress sites, I've got other plans. I want to offer something like Bitpay does, but keeping all the payments in crypto, and offloading the conversion to fiat to the merchants. I have a good reason for doing this (separation of concerns, decoupling things which most people see as one step, and avoiding onerous KYC requirements which would prevent me from doing that in the first place).

    It would be like an iframe or separate window and once a payment is detected, re-directs and sends an IPN notification back to the merchant site. It would be focused solely on Invoice management and payment using FinTech. I would even like to set it up so that the invoice contents are encrypted by the merchant key, such that the service won't even be able to read the line items, but they can be seen by the merchant/customer. The service would only check for payment and manage invoice state. The payments would still be direct to a user's wallet.

    But that's all idea stage, and not related to this plugin.

    These are good questions, thanks Solar. Let me know if you have any others or if I missed anything.
     
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  19. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Oh, just wanted to add!

    In regards to CoinPayments, and services like Bitpay, etc. Yes, they offer fiat, but they're also a centralized service which can and have shut down accounts in violation of some terms. E.g. Bitpay won't serve (for example) stores in Canada which (legally) sell cannibis seeds. Or recreational marajuana shops in Washington.

    But direct Dash payments can't be shut down.
     
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  20. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    That was fast.

    Sounds like you are thinking ahead. As for instantx, you can do that now. You need a dashd instance running. The dashvend code can detect the IX, what you do with it will need to change(instead of a relay it will send the ok)

    https://github.com/moocowmoo/dashvend
     
  21. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Sure, I can detect the IX. But how can a **WordPress** site **directly** detect it — without contacting a middleman service? WordPress doesn't have long-running processes. WordPress spins up upon every page request, then goes away.
     
  22. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    Hey GreyGhost ,

    Told you the other day that I was making a response to Camo's concerns -- I've made a video to more easily demonstrate the points I'm trying to convey, and it's here, in case you wanted to check it out:

    DashPay - WooCommerce Plugin [coming soon]
     
  23. nmarley

    nmarley Active Member

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    One of the concerns with this (possible) proposal brought up in the Dash Round Table was the issue of support/maintenance/upgrades.

    If the proposal is approved, it will immediately be placed on Github.com (in either my account or in the Dashpay organization's account if the community wants to keep it there).

    I will be the maintainer for, let's say, a year. (In truth, I will maintain this as long as there are issues and maintenance to be done — one year, five years, whatever). Please understand the "one year" thing is just a technicality. And anyone is also welcome to take over as maintainer if they understand the code well enough and express a desire to do so.

    My company, Black Carrot Ventures, will be listed as the developer/maintainer in the comments/readme, but the same still applies.

    I'm about 80% finished with the documentation. It will have both written and video documentation (e.g. "a how to install from scratch" video).

    Another concern was: what if I just release the plugin, take the Dash and then drop off — a very valid point.

    Though I'm not the most vocal, especially in the forums, I've been a member of this community for almost 2 years now, and I'm dedicated to seeing Dash become the world's most efficient AND decentralized payments network. I have no plans to leave.
     
    #23 nmarley, Mar 14, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2016
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  24. Raico

    Raico Well-known Member
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    ofcz, YES!!
     
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  25. blockhead

    blockhead New Member

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  26. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I have it installed, but since it breaks the proper checkout process flow, I quit using it. I think there's a second one proposed that's more appropriate.

    You can make it workable by adding a bunch of instructions and warnings in it's payment method description panel, but it tends to scare users...

    Bottom line, if people just click DASH as payment out of curiosity, and then proceed, the cart will be lost, they can't back up and do a different payment method. The would-be customer is then expected to start all over, which they probbaly won't do because such a fuckup does not instill confidence. It just becomes an order that stays in Pending Payment mode eternally with no way to ever get paid...

    This was a good first-draft effort, but it's not finished to a degree that it can be used in the real world. The Author seems to have bigger fish to fry, and there's a new proposal for a plugin that appears to be better designed. I'd call this project vestigial.
     
    #26 camosoul, Feb 6, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  27. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Hi @blockhead please check out the latest updated Woocommerce plugin by our dev @snogcel here:
    https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/DOC/Dash+Checkout

    More general information on the supporting API here: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/DOC/Dash+Payment+Processor+Overview

    @camosoul
     
  28. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    Thanks, I couldn't find it and had to do other stuffs...
     
  29. blockhead

    blockhead New Member

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    Thanks @Minotaur I'll do that and get it set up soon :)
     
  30. JerryBanfield

    JerryBanfield New Member

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    Yes I would use this on my website if it was available!