(Pre-Proposal) DASHPayCard - DASH Branded Debit Card + Fiat/Dash Integration

asabove.sobelow

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Nov 28, 2016
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He came to us with an offer, we accepted it and rendered payment. In the eyes of the law that is a contract.
Right! Ahh, if only there was some kind of "intelligent" or "clever" or "astute" contract, which could hold the allocated funds in escrow until the community votes to release, or something. The way the system currently operates seems sub-optimal, and there's no reason/incentive for folks to actually deliver anything, as they get paid upfront w/o having to do anything but put together a proposal and spend 5 DASH.

Is there any talk or work on adding such an escrow functionality to the system? It would seem to be a win/win to further optimize this - so the issue no longer exists - versus talk of lawsuits which will only waste time/energy.
 

ldw

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Jun 23, 2016
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Truth be told, we all shouldn't be so stupid to give these scammers so much money in the first place (again and again and again...)

Somebody should make the sum of all the money lost on never fulfilled proposals, it's a staggering amount for sure.
 

thesavoyard

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I think requesters can be held accountable. I'm not sure if it would fall under contract law or fraud if someone didn't intend to fulfill their end of the bargain. Dash could be considered a grant and it's still illegal to defraud a grant-giving organization. The thing is, you do not lack the resources to find out. Maybe the core team needs to do a treasury budget to research and enforce prior disbursements?
 

asabove.sobelow

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Nov 28, 2016
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Truth be told, we all shouldn't be so stupid to give these scammers so much money in the first place (again and again and again...)

Somebody should make the sum of all the money lost on never fulfilled proposals, it's a staggering amount for sure.
Truth be told, we shouldn't have a system which pays upfront, but commits to and only pays once the agreed-to service/goods have been satisfactorily delivered. With such a system, the scammers won't ever get paid and they'll go elsewhere. The way the system currently works, as we've seen time and time again, will keep netting us these waste/fails until the system itself gets fixed. The bogus projects are a symptom, not the disease.
 

Name3

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Jun 23, 2017
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Truth be told, we shouldn't have a system which pays upfront, but commits to and only pays once the agreed-to service/goods have been satisfactorily delivered. With such a system, the scammers won't ever get paid and they'll go elsewhere. The way the system currently works, as we've seen time and time again, will keep netting us these waste/fails until the system itself gets fixed. The bogus projects are a symptom, not the disease.
The problem is most of the projects that we fund require the money we are giving them to carry out whatever it is they want to do. If we can't pay them until after it is completed then they can't actually do anything.
 
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JZA

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Jan 4, 2016
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Yeah you will need credit for that and insurance and a whole bunch of barriers. To be honest the system works, yes some have scammed but it's the large minority. And most of the campaigns have been pretty good.
 

younglegend

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Jan 1, 2017
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maybe we should have automatic wallet that release the fund slowly and upon the updates received?

we maybe robbed but there are many criminals. I don't know what his belief is, but I believe one day

he will have to answer for his deeds.

we just try to avoid it in the future, especially large funds.
 

MizzyMax

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Feb 14, 2017
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You could argue that burning the funds could be considered payment back to the network.
Ahh great idea, if a proposal owner doesn't follow through, masternodes could burn the funds they gave away. but also if that person knows the funds will be burned, he could decide to spend it all or just recycle his coins, and we would just burn someone who had nothing to do with it.

I think in the end it's really considered a gift, a gift that we hope is useful to the Dash network and provides value. We trust everyone approved to provide value for Dash has good intentions and we may have 1 or 2 bad actors in the mix trying to swindle the funds away. when you have 100 good payments to those 1 or 2 bad ones it's a sufficient enough system for me.
 

Name3

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Jun 23, 2017
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Ahh great idea, if a proposal owner doesn't follow through, masternodes could burn the funds they gave away. but also if that person knows the funds will be burned, he could decide to spend it all or just recycle his coins, and we would just burn someone who had nothing to do with it.

I think in the end it's really considered a gift, a gift that we hope is useful to the Dash network and provides value. We trust everyone approved to provide value for Dash has good intentions and we may have 1 or 2 bad actors in the mix trying to swindle the funds away. when you have 100 good payments to those 1 or 2 bad ones it's a sufficient enough system for me.
I disagree. As Dash grows we are going to run into situations like these. I think if we want to be taken seriously and truly be the future of money we can't just be handing out gifts. We need some way to enforce that people actually carry through on the contracts that we make with them. Honestly I am just waiting for a legal office to step up and be legal sub-DAO that can handle non-fulfillment of contracts and lobbying efforts.
 
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thesavoyard

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maybe we should have automatic wallet that release the fund slowly and upon the updates received?

we maybe robbed but there are many criminals. I don't know what his belief is, but I believe one day

he will have to answer for his deeds.

we just try to avoid it in the future, especially large funds.
That's not a bad idea. Maybe each successful treasury request should be assigned and paid through an online hot wallet instead of their own wallet. Eliminates the risk of funds being lost due to HD crash. The challenge would be setting up a disbursement system that works for all users.
 

akhavr

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Oct 11, 2014
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paid through an online hot wallet instead of their own wallet
1. How do you plan to verify that the supplied address is "an online hot wallet"? Or, even the corresponding private key is known?
2. Let's guess you have a workable answer for (1). Does that mean that you suggest putting $1.9M bughunting bounty online on a monthly basis?
 

thesavoyard

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1. How do you plan to verify that the supplied address is "an online hot wallet"? Or, even the corresponding private key is known?
2. Let's guess you have a workable answer for (1). Does that mean that you suggest putting $1.9M bughunting bounty online on a monthly basis?
I was thinking that all payouts be to an online wallet approved by the Dash team, when someone creates their proposal, they would receive the wallet generated automatically. Although I have to admit, I don't have the programming skills to say if this is feasible or not, just throwing out ideas.
 

EazyDay

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Why is everyone convinced that something is wrong with Charlie and not the system, of which mastercard is a part of? I thought it was a longshot to begin with? Shrem is not an insider in fiat banking. Is there any legal reason we cannot acquire a struggling credit union or savings and loan? The ceo was or is putting in place the legal frameworks to allow DASH to enter into contracts and administer them.
 

Gunna

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Why is everyone convinced that something is wrong with Charlie and not the system, of which mastercard is a part of? I thought it was a longshot to begin with? Shrem is not an insider in fiat banking. Is there any legal reason we cannot acquire a struggling credit union or savings and loan? The ceo was or is putting in place the legal frameworks to allow DASH to enter into contracts and administer them.
Because of his continued lack of any bloody updates thats why. How many chances are people willing to give this shill. If it is due to circumstances outside his control, update the stakeholders. If he has hit a road block, then let the community know. No instead this peanut goes dark.
 

EazyDay

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Because of his continued lack of any bloody updates thats why. How many chances are people willing to give this shill. If it is due to circumstances outside his control, update the stakeholders. If he has hit a road block, then let the community know. No instead this peanut goes dark.
I see, I thought maybe I could not find that thread or something? Actions are speech and Andy Grove founder of Intel said stay paranoid, so my thoughts are:
  • he is not talking because he can't = Either someone told him not too or he is afraid to?
  • he is not talking because he won't = Either he fucked it all up or does not have the will because of other projects and/or coke & hoes?
So the question now is how do we flush him down the toilet and keep moving forward?
 

Gunna

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I see, I thought maybe I could not find that thread or something? Actions are speech and Andy Grove founder of Intel said stay paranoid, so my thoughts are:
  • he is not talking because he can't = Either someone told him not too or he is afraid to?
  • he is not talking because he won't = Either he fucked it all up or does not have the will because of other projects and/or coke & hoes?
So the question now is how do we flush him down the toilet and keep moving forward?
I personally do not think there was malice behind the way he handled this.

I think there are technical issues stopping it from moving forward but his lack of updates is what really frustrates me and I dont know why it frustrates me so much seeing as my limited holdings in Dash would prevent me from using it. It certainly did help open the discussion in ways to help prevent this from happening again
 

EazyDay

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I personally do not think there was malice behind the way he handled this.

I think there are technical issues stopping it from moving forward but his lack of updates is what really frustrates me and I dont know why it frustrates me so much seeing as my limited holdings in Dash would prevent me from using it. It certainly did help open the discussion in ways to help prevent this from happening again
Malice is often hidden as stupidity and technical issues are not issues until they become issues. A tooth does not hurt until you are in pain? Wall street has this concept of a quiet period when dealing with stock ipo's. I heard his comments about not speaking publicly about the card and that it was looked down upon by the card company. Statements like, " Still on hold " and " nothing yet " once per week should not be considered speaking publicly. Taking longer than normal is speech, just like donations is speech. I understand that DASH would require special review because we live in a different world now unlike when coinbase started.

  1. Why are we not using Silicon Valley Bank or others as a fiat partner?
  2. TenX has this COMIT whitepaper, did charlie have one? Monaco card also had one, I think?
  3. Did someone who has been around for awhile and has community trust say "I checked on things, so chill "?
 

GrandMasterDash

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Enough of the hate. He's already said elsewhere, he was previously burnt for revealing stuff ahead of time. This crypto debit card thing is treading on a lot of toes, we can see that elsewhere; tenx etc.

Personally, I think one way or another he will come through but just keep in mind this is not a one-man-show, there's a whole bunch of people and processes behind the scenes. The legal world - NDAs etc - are a pain in the butt. So let's just have some patience.
 

TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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Enough of the hate. He's already said elsewhere, he was previously burnt for revealing stuff ahead of time. This crypto debit card thing is treading on a lot of toes, we can see that elsewhere; tenx etc.

Personally, I think one way or another he will come through but just keep in mind this is not a one-man-show, there's a whole bunch of people and processes behind the scenes. The legal world - NDAs etc - are a pain in the butt. So let's just have some patience.
How long do you think would be appropriate to wait? From what I have been able to gather, Charlie has not publicly communicated any updates in over a month except for a single tweet 3 weeks ago. He has not followed up on this thread or logged into his account here at all for over 6 months since the proposal passed. He did do the one interview with dashforce a while back. Other public communication from Charlie has had little to no mention of Dash at all, not even considering the debit card. There is a chasm between how he has handled dash, versus his overt enthusiasm and community participation with other projects.

I am NOT saying there can't be reasons he is handling it like this, and I am not saying we should write this off yet, but it is extremely concerning.
 
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camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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Malice is often hidden as stupidity
Feign incompetence, reduces backlash when you planned to take the money and run all along.

A well practiced behavior in the real world, where someone might actually sue you.

coke & hoes?
As long as the MNOs refuse to grow up and be adults, this will happen.

As long as The Usual Suspects keep the budget system gimped up with a lack of features and useful granular control, there's no motivation for MNOs to give a shit. But, that was the objective... Bottomless Piggy Bank for those with the political influence. It's broken on purpose.
 

EazyDay

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Q) Does the card depend on the DAPI working?

If yes, then the dev roadmap says that it will not be live on the mainnet until 02/18. So let's assume we hit that date, then we could not reasonably expect a card until mid or late Q3 of 2018.

If not, then we should set a 60 to 90 day fuse, then go full tard! I dunno, what say you @TroyDASH, shorter or longer fuse?

The takeaway: In the future, we have to set clear communication standards in the proposal templates that are being developed with appropriate remedies. If provocateurs are abound then remedy always sunshine.
 

Gunna

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Enough of the hate. He's already said elsewhere, he was previously burnt for revealing stuff ahead of time. This crypto debit card thing is treading on a lot of toes, we can see that elsewhere; tenx etc.

Personally, I think one way or another he will come through but just keep in mind this is not a one-man-show, there's a whole bunch of people and processes behind the scenes. The legal world - NDAs etc - are a pain in the butt. So let's just have some patience.
Yeah you're right, we should wait until after the deadline........ Oh wait that passed weeks ago without any acknowledgement from Charlie.

Maybe we should go back through the forums or proposal page and double check his updates........ Oh wait, he has not provided a single update in either of those places. NOT 1.

If this was anyone else if would have been sealed as a delinquent proposal.

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk
 

Stealth923

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Sometimes saying that you dont have any updates is better than saying nothing at all.

Silence is what kills....
 

GrandMasterDash

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Yeah you're right, we should wait until after the deadline........ Oh wait that passed weeks ago without any acknowledgement from Charlie.

Maybe we should go back through the forums or proposal page and double check his updates........ Oh wait, he has not provided a single update in either of those places. NOT 1.

If this was anyone else if would have been sealed as a delinquent proposal.

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk
I agree with all the frustration here. It's true, whether it's Core or Shrem, good communication is essential.

Call it intuition, but I feel there's more to this than meets the eye.
 

EazyDay

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Three people + I are in agreement that if it were anyone else, then the community would have already made a move on him.

Q) Are we victims of his celebrity? Did Cosby slip something in the coffee and we woke up in Weinstein's house?
 

EazyDay

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Hell yea, its relevant. Crypto's and the rent seekers like mastercard/visa cannot co-exist? MasterNodes are a clear and present danger to their business model.
  1. Fucking wow, I just dumped TenX yesterday, my spidy sense was tingling because of the lack of paranoia in this debate. Good timing on my part!
  2. " All existing cards belonging to people outside the EEA (Euro Zone) will remain active for another 90 days. " Does that mean my coinbase card will be shut off as well?
  3. Centra card has their own banking partner and if true appears to have dodged this first bullet, please refer to my previous comments about buying a small S & L from the FDIC shit list.
  4. Why only the EEA? Sounds like a short to me?
 

GrandMasterDash

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Hell yea, its relevant. Crypto's and the rent seekers like mastercard/visa cannot co-exist? MasterNodes are a clear and present danger to their business model.
  1. Fucking wow, I just dumped TenX yesterday, my spidy sense was tingling because of the lack of paranoia in this debate. Good timing on my part!
  2. " All existing cards belonging to people outside the EEA (Euro Zone) will remain active for another 90 days. " Does that mean my coinbase card will be shut off as well?
  3. Centra card has their own banking partner and if true appears to have dodged this first bullet, please refer to my previous comments about buying a small S & L from the FDIC shit list.
  4. Why only the EEA? Sounds like a short to me?
Might be a bit premature. TenX were already lining up new issuers before the visa and mastercard incident. Also, they will be leasing a bank license, though admittedly that will take 6+ months. But really, a bet on tenx isn't just about their card but also a long term gamble on their COMIT protocol.

AFAIK, Centra is a one trick pony.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Q) Are we victims of his celebrity?
Maybe for some but I think when you dig deeper you get better sense of who he is and understand there are bigger things at play here.

The stage is set for an epic battle. The Merkle article highlights the importance of partnerships with those like Alt36. We need to bypass visa / mc entirely.