Moving CoinJoin out of the protocol and into a separate wallet (e.g., fork of Wasabi)

Geert

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We can argue with regulators till we're blue in the face, but they can always take issue with the fact that the masternode network facilitates coin mixing. Why not deprecate coin mixing in the protocol and move it into a wallet that people can use if they feel the need? The DAO could fund a fork of Wasabi, for example.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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It wouldn't change perception. Education is a very expensive business.

Besides, there is evidence that dash will be improving fungibility in the mid to long term.

a) Ryan Taylor has repeatedly said he wants to see coin mixing improved to at least as good as the competition. I very much congratulate him for that, it's just a shame DCG is no longer getting my votes.

b) Dash Platform has a credit system ("dash credits") that will allow exchange between dash and dash credits. It's not clear if this will start out as a two-way operation but it's easy to imagine so. This might pave the way for a Lelantus-type transaction i.e. burn dash to receive dash credits, then mint new dash from dash credits.

I would also like to see a DEX built on top of Dash Platform. That might help reduce pressure from regulators.
 
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Geert

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I started out by trying to imagine how we can improve CoinJoin, but how can we do that while we are simultaneously trying to shed the perception that Dash is an anonymity-enhanced cryptocurrency. This is a "Gordian knot" that cannot be untangled; it must be cut. That is why I think we should explore not just unbranding PrivateSend. We must explore moving this controversial functionality out of the protocol completely.
 
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Geert

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Can anyone tell my why using masternodes to mix coins is any better than the approach used by the Wasabi wallet? Both are non-custodial and trustless.
 

akhavr

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We must explore moving this controversial functionality out of the protocol completely.
Do you want to turn Dash into Dogecoin?

Can anyone tell my why using masternodes to mix coins is any better than the approach used by the Wasabi wallet? Both are non-custodial and trustless.
Because wasabi requires a third party coordinator. Thus, it requires more trust than current mixing with masternodes.
 
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Geert

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Because wasabi requires a third party coordinator. Thus, it requires more trust than current mixing with masternodes.
Wasabi is pretty advanced. If the client is operating correctly, the coordinator is effectively blinded.


The CoinJoin coordinator (run by zkSNACKs Ltd., the company that is sponsoring the development of Wasabi) cannot steal from, nor breach the privacy of the participants.
...
The package includes built-in Tor and, by default, all traffic between the clients and the server goes through it, so IP addresses are hidden and privacy of the users is respected. Under normal conditions, Wasabi Wallet never leaves Tor onion network and it never uses Tor exit relays, significantly decreasing the network attack surface.
...
Thanks to Schnorr blind signatures, (which is similar to the cryptography used in chaumian blind signatures and blinded bearer certificates) it is possible to run trustless (meaning nobody can steal) and private (meaning even the coordinator cannot spy) CoinJoins where anyone does not learn the linkage between the mixed transaction inputs and outputs.


* * *

Rather than fork Wasabi and then have to convince someone to set up a company to run the coordinator, maybe it would be better to simply hire zkSNACKs to implement a version for Dash and run the coordinator. zkSNACKs makes money by charging a small fee for each coinjoin, so they might be interested in this.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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This requires introduction of tokens on top of the protocol. There was a proposal for revival of CounterParty protocol on the Dash network, but it wasn't supported by the MNO.
Probably but,

a) MNOs never support protocol changes unless it emanates from DCG (which is why I'm no longer voting for them),

b) AFAIK, the Counterparty proposal wasn't going to leverage Dash Platform, and

c) Dash Platform will have dash credits and that might be enough to act as collateral (unsure).

The biggest hurdle for a DEX built on Dash Platform would be liquidity and gaining enough user traction.
 

Geert

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@GrandMasterDash would you please stop spamming us about how you won't upvote DCG proposals. We get it. And would you please stop trying to derail my thread with discussions about decentralized exchanges?
 

GrandMasterDash

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@GrandMasterDash would you please stop spamming us about how you won't upvote DCG proposals. We get it. And would you please stop trying to derail my thread with discussions about decentralized exchanges?
DEX's are exactly on topic as they reduce regulatory pressure on DCG. You, OTOH, seem to be hellbent on convincing others that removing key components from dash is somehow beneficial. Did you also ask BTC to remove Taproots because they provide too much anonymity? At what point do you think that BTC will be de-listed from major exchanges? Apologies for being on topic.
 
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Geert

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You're making a mistake that many nerds make, and that is to assume that most people are like yourself. If you explain to the average "normie" who is just buying crypto now (because Elon Musk told them it's ok) that they should mix their coins, but that there is no way to know who they are mixing their coins with (could be a child trafficker or a money launderer or a RUSSIAN HACKER!), ALMOST ALL OF THEM WILL REFUSE TO MIX THEIR COINS. I can't even get some people to install Signal because they're such terrified normies.

You are overestimating the number of people who even WANT to mix their coins.
 
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Geert

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Even if we DON'T remove CoinJoin from the protocol, do you agree that it would be a good idea to have another option? To have a fork of Wasabi for Dash?
 

vazaki3

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You're making a mistake that many nerds make, and that is to assume that most people are like yourself. If you explain to the average "normie" who is just buying crypto now (because Elon Musk told them it's ok) that they should mix their coins, but that there is no way to know who they are mixing their coins with (could be a child trafficker or a money launderer or a RUSSIAN HACKER!), ALMOST ALL OF THEM WILL REFUSE TO MIX THEIR COINS. I can't even get some people to install Signal because they're such terrified normies.

You are overestimating the number of people who even WANT to mix their coins.

What are you talking about?

IF the average "normie" does not like to mix his coins with the average trafficer, the average money launderer or the average russian hacker (the average "normie" OBLIGATORY does it, when he uses the government's paper money), THEN the "normie" has the freedom in Dash to NOT use the mixing coins functionallity.

So I see no problem in Dash mixing / coinjoin. It is an improvement, compared to the paper money of the government.
In case the government decides to ban paper moner, we should start thinking about it. Until then, I see no legal problem.

#13
 
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vazaki3

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Even if we DON'T remove CoinJoin from the protocol, do you agree that it would be a good idea to have another option? To have a fork of Wasabi for Dash?
I would prefer your idea to be coded as a SPORK into the code of Dash, and let the Dash community vote for it, and temporarily enable or disable the coinmix functionality, according the circumstances.

On what it concerns the fork idea, I like forks, whatever they may be. But along with whatever fork of Dash may occur, we should better find other cryptos who share similar to Dash's ideas, and merge Dash with them.

 
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GrandMasterDash

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You're making a mistake that many nerds make, and that is to assume that most people are like yourself. If you explain to the average "normie" who is just buying crypto now (because Elon Musk told them it's ok) that they should mix their coins, but that there is no way to know who they are mixing their coins with (could be a child trafficker or a money launderer or a RUSSIAN HACKER!), ALMOST ALL OF THEM WILL REFUSE TO MIX THEIR COINS. I can't even get some people to install Signal because they're such terrified normies.

You are overestimating the number of people who even WANT to mix their coins.
...or a non-violent marginalized group of activists that are being targeted by banks and governments. Perhaps you should be explaining to your normie friends who invented Tor and why the US government wanted to hide amongst the crowd.

Those with power don't just seek to attack but also disarm the normies you talk about. These are the same people that gave us "privacy laws" to discourage me from stalking you yet granted exception to themselves to track you, spy on you and retain data as they so please... to protect you from the Russian hackers but also from the activists that dare to revolt against them.

I do not underestimate those that want to mix coins. A minority of people mix their coins, that doesn't make their opinions worthless or gives anyone the right to curtail their rights to free speech.

I understand to the normie, the balance and history in their wallet looks like a flat record of account but, in fact, the bitcoin / dash protocol is a language. An agreed language of how to proceed. This is one reason why computer code - and digital cash - is free speech. It's also a protocol / language you are free to participate in, or not. If you'd rather speak bitcoin and taproots, be my guest, this is what a free society looks like.

Tbh, coin mixing is only effective if you know what you're doing. It's good in so far that you can implement it on most chains, but for true privacy there are better technologies. For the average user, coin mixing is too slow. Imo it should be an invisible and a non-interactive process to the end user.

I would be very happy to see a wasabi style alternative for dash. And I'm very much encouraged that Dash Electrum is working independently to improve privacy. But none of this would lead me to the conclusion that con mixing be removed to appease banks and governments. Having said that, I have no problem with coin mixing being an optional plugin to the desktop wallet.
 
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Geert

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I would be very happy to see a wasabi style alternative for dash.
Wow. We are in agreement. We need someone to take the lead on creating a fork of Wasabi for Dash. Should we ask the DIF if they are willing to approach zkSNACKS, Ltd? Maybe this is too controversial for the DIF, but it would be the best approach IMHO.
 

akhavr

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Wow. We are in agreement. We need someone to take the lead on creating a fork of Wasabi for Dash. Should we ask the DIF if they are willing to approach zkSNACKS, Ltd? Maybe this is too controversial for the DIF, but it would be the best approach IMHO.
Why wasabi fork? IMO JoinMarket is a closer target.
 

GrandMasterDash

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While I was researching JoinMarket I found this:

Nice list. So far I've not had this happen to me but it adds fuel to my caution. There is also this retrospective attack on privacy:


All these events encourage me to just steer clear of centralized exchanges. I'm thankful that DEXs are more common and a little more liquid than they used to be. Still a long way to go but we're getting there.
 
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Geert

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Moving coin mixing out of the Dash protocol and into separate wallets and networks decentralizes this feature. There is that magic word everyone loves so much.

Now how are you going to argue against that?
 

Geert

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CoinJoin is a privacy (not anonymity) and fungibility feature, why in the hell would we want to trust it to a 3rd party when we already have LLMQs devoted coding to it?
I'm glad you asked Agnew. The Dash implementation of CoinJoin is terrible in comparison to Wasabi! We don't take advantage of Tor, and we can't offer "masternode blinding" for coin mixing. Wasabi offers both these things right now. If you don't want to use the Wasabi zkSNACKS coordinator, we could launch our own coordinator. It's open source.
 

AgnewPickens

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I'm glad you asked Agnew. The Dash implementation of CoinJoin is terrible in comparison to Wasabi! We don't take advantage of Tor, and we can't offer "masternode blinding" for coin mixing. Wasabi offers both these things right now. If you don't want to use the Wasabi zkSNACKS coordinator, we could launch our own coordinator. It's open source.

Not as easy as it sounds, the upstreams for Equihash don't match X11 requirements, but let's go changing the basic architecture of Dashcore right before we prepare for a Dash Platform release. Brilliant!
 
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Geert

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IF Wasabi works with Bitcoin, I assume a fork for Dash would not be THAT much work and would not involve any change to Dashcore.
 

thephez

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CoinJoin is a privacy (not anonymity) and fungibility feature, why in the hell would we want to trust it to a 3rd party when we already have LLMQs devoted coding to it?
Slight technical clarification - LLMQs are unrelated to / not part of CoinJoin which predated them by a number of years.
 

Geert

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CoinJoin is a privacy (not anonymity) and fungibility feature, why in the hell would we want to trust it to a 3rd party when we already have LLMQs devoted coding to it?
"Privacy is the ability to keep some things to yourself, regardless of their impact to society. ... So privacy is a concept describing activities that you keep entirely to yourself, or to a limited group of people. In contrast, anonymity is when you want people to see what you do, just not that it's you doing it."


It's more complicated than you suggest Agnew. You might choose to mix your coins before donating to a public address for a controversial project, and in that case you would be using Dash to anonymize the transaction. If you use mixing to send funds to people you already know, then I suppose you are using Dash for the purpose of privacy..

The only thing we can say is that Coinjoin allows one to send Dash such that the originating address cannot be known, but is one of a finite set.