Mint-Gox

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
The current situation with Mintpal shows us that something simply has to be done about these exchanges. It's a trusted system in what should be an entirely untrusted, on the blockchain solution. It's high time someone does this, and I think that our masternode network is the perfect structure to implement the first p2p exchange/market place. I only wish I could code! But I know some of you can do this, so I'm putting out a plea for someone to create a coin to coin decentralized exchange. With ... oh gosh, who made the escrow, multi sig program???... Well, I can see his multisig wallet being the base for such a system. I can see logically that it can be done. All one would need to know is how to make an exchange, then implement it into multi sig wallets somehow.

Anyone interested/capable, or want to support this kind of a project? I'd say the creators could earn coin off of each transaction as could the masternodes via fees (that would / should be very low)

I summon you to fulfill your potential !

WHAT SAY YOU!
 

flare

Grizzled Member
May 18, 2014
2,286
2,404
1,183
Germany
The current situation with Mintpal shows us that something simply has to be done about these exchanges. It's a trusted system in what should be an entirely untrusted, on the blockchain solution. It's high time someone does this, and I think that our masternode network is the perfect structure to implement the first p2p exchange/market place. I only wish I could code! But I know some of you can do this, so I'm putting out a plea for someone to create a coin to coin decentralized exchange. With ... oh gosh, who made the escrow, multi sig program???... Well, I can see his multisig wallet being the base for such a system. I can see logically that it can be done. All one would need to know is how to make an exchange, then implement it into multi sig wallets somehow.

Anyone interested/capable, or want to support this kind of a project? I'd say the creators could earn coin off of each transaction as could the masternodes via fees (that would / should be very low)

I summon you to fulfill your potential !

WHAT SAY YOU!
I really like the idea - Bitcoinica, BitFloor, Mt.Gox, Bitcurex, Cryptorush, C-CEX, Mintpal ... how many breakdowns do we want to experience?

And i agree: It's time for a decentralized coin exchange - and why not benefit from a 900+ high performance server network to create such? The p2pool concept has shown that decentralized mining works, and so should coin exchange.

So my vote for implementing this (may be even completely independant from DRK) - but i am to busy to get this started. Community members, one pace forward!

Holger
 

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
I only do localbitcoin (for BTC obviously) and this is just great !
fast , secure, and done !

If we had the same for DRK it would be amazing !

Escrow system,
Mulisig
smart contract
give +/- for Sellers/ buyers (trust) and done

Who is able to do that ?!
 

miningpros

New Member
Jun 6, 2014
27
19
8
Great Idea , Also a good moment to cut DRK loose of BTC , trade with USD as main exchange.
 

pbleak

Active Member
May 15, 2014
399
172
113
Actually this would be quite immense. Imagine developing an exchange that people could trust based on decentralisation and then promoting Dark and not Bitcoin as the main coin (but including Bitcoin of course).
 

pbleak

Active Member
May 15, 2014
399
172
113
I only do localbitcoin (for BTC obviously) and this is just great !
fast , secure, and done !

If we had the same for DRK it would be amazing !

Escrow system,
Mulisig
smart contract
give +/- for Sellers/ buyers (trust) and done

Who is able to do that ?!
Sounds like the deep web type markets but transplanted to something a bit more sensible.
 

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
Great Idea , Also a good moment to cut DRK loose of BTC , trade with USD as main exchange.
Well, that would require regulation compliance, so I see this as only being a coin to coin exchange. Masternode owners are linked to the real world, usually, so they can be responsible for fiat to coin conversions without a license :p
 

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,871
1,863
1,283
I only do localbitcoin (for BTC obviously) and this is just great !
fast , secure, and done !

If we had the same for DRK it would be amazing !

Escrow system,
Mulisig
smart contract
give +/- for Sellers/ buyers (trust) and done

Who is able to do that ?!
Well, this should be trustless, and incognito, so no real identification should be gathered (if you use darksend). And if it could function with the same tools the exchanges give us, like a market ticker, that'd be really good. That way both parties can see where the price is going. I see this as an actual exchange, working just like a normal exchange except that the funds are held (and locked) when up for sale until a trade is made, inside the user's wallet, rather than in an exchange, under their control.

it's not going to be easy...

I would guess that BTC to DRK would be first, with the "team" implementing it in a duel wallet, and hopefully other coin teams adding to their wallet the technology, so we don't have to make something for each coin. When a pairing is made, it is recorded and put on a separate chain perhaps, where data on price and volume can then be charted for all to see.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ignition75

Active Member
May 25, 2014
332
216
113
Australia
Someone will need to project manage this and see it through all the way... There will be a lot of moving parts to this one.
 

pbleak

Active Member
May 15, 2014
399
172
113
I guess it comes down to what it would entail. Does anybody know roughly how much the set up costs for an exchange are? Are there any known designers in the area? If we gain get that then we simply need to crowdfund, hire and then buy the server space/domain and so on. From there it is promotion. I know that deep web exchanges have people who set them up for a fee so surely this can be done for sure for cheaper (since, of course, what we are doing is legal). Or perhaps we could talk to the ccedk guy about his site which is a bit flat at the moment and might be open to this new approach.
 

acidburn

Active Member
May 26, 2014
467
175
113
If someone could do a proper task breakdown then deifferent people could contribute to the tasks.
 

Cofresí

Member
Dash Core Group
Aug 22, 2014
86
82
58
122
Carribean
Hmmm.... to start off for our internal use so to speak and before releasing it to the open, why not keep it quick and dirty and then build up on that? I think we could use an existing escrow solution with arbiters and implement automated trustless arbiters powered by masternodes at a later stage. A currency exchange would be perfect to implement automated arbiters, because all the arbiters need to do is look up the blockchains of the exchange pair's currencies and check if the transactions really were executed. Still, implementing this nicely is not a child's play and could be done in a later step. Teamer's escrow service could be used as a base. His escrow page doesn't explicitly explain, but I guess he must have implemented multisig. https://drkescrow.com/ . In case he hasn't implemented it already it shouldn't be too dificult thanks to thelonecroutons multisig tool https://darkcointalk.org/threads/qu...g-ui-in-python-qt-new-unimproved-perver.2197/. Obviously the page would need to be changed quite a bit to serve as a real currency exchange with order book, bid and ask prices etc. I like the design solution of http://shapeshift.io/ as an example of an exchange that doesn't require an account/identity. Maybe the fastest way to achieve this is would be if Teamer could put the source of drkescrow.com on github and whoever is able to adapt it can give it a go? To start off we could run it with arbiters from the community if a dispute comes up. Teamer what say you?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
i just heard of bitsquare.io (guys out of vienna)
http://bitsquare.io
with a decentralized BTC Exchange Idea !

i believe this is running into the direction we are talking !!
They are not up yet, but there are so good videos to see how they plan to do it and the code is on github (open source)


I we would build something like that into the Masternode Network for DRK
we would save ourself and our DRK friends and new comers a whole lot of trouble
(with these dam exchanges) !
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cofresí

Cofresí

Member
Dash Core Group
Aug 22, 2014
86
82
58
122
Carribean
i just heard of bitsquare.io (guys out of vienna)
http://bitsquare.io
with a decentralized BTC Exchange Idea !
Neat. Very nice find Tunga!

Quote from their whitepaper:

"A crypto-crypto exchange could be build in a real trustless way, so no arbitration and none of the other protection mechanisms are needed. The main problem would be how to connect without too much effort to a huge variety of different alt coins and systems.

An interesting aspect of an crypto-crypto exchange would be the anonymisation of digital currencies."

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d3EiWZdaM89-P6MVhS53unXv2-pDpSFsN3W4kCGXKgY/edit?pli=1#

Only minus for me personally: it's coded in Java! But if it works, who cares :)
Will try to play around with it a bit as soon as I find time.
 

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
Neat. Very nice find Tunga!

Quote from their whitepaper:

"A crypto-crypto exchange could be build in a real trustless way, so no arbitration and none of the other protection mechanisms are needed. The main problem would be how to connect without too much effort to a huge variety of different alt coins and systems.

An interesting aspect of an crypto-crypto exchange would be the anonymisation of digital currencies."

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d3EiWZdaM89-P6MVhS53unXv2-pDpSFsN3W4kCGXKgY/edit?pli=1#

Only minus for me personally: it's coded in Java! But if it works, who cares :)
Will try to play around with it a bit as soon as I find time.
i have no idea about coding thought !
but ja java is not really used i imagine for things like this.

Ja would be great if you could look into that

imagine we had a DRK exchange running on the MN's !
Dam we would so beat the system of screwup's, illicit exchanges, greedy scam brothers , and whatever else is out there !
 

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
I've got some spare time in a week or two. I'd be happy to meet with them in Vienna.
do we need them ?
we could just use the code , modify it a bit and boom !?? ...>
 

stonehedge

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Jul 31, 2014
696
333
233
The question is, do we have the development capacity to take this on? I'm not part of the dev team but from where I'm standing Evan seems to be having trouble finding help for the day to day progression of Darkcoin let alone for a major feature like this.

It might be that their code/product/idea is unsuitable. It be that they're owned by Alex Green (joke!). My point being is that we don't know if we need them or not.
 

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
The question is, do we have the development capacity to take this on? I'm not part of the dev team but from where I'm standing Evan seems to be having trouble finding help for the day to day progression of Darkcoin let alone for a major feature like this.

It might be that their code/product/idea is unsuitable. It be that they're owned by Alex Green (joke!). My point being is that we don't know if we need them or not.
fair enough as i do not know ether what technically has or is to be done !
if you down there anyway, propably gonna be super interesting
tell them i heard of them from
Dave Shin / Hong Kong (coin dojo chat)
 

Cofresí

Member
Dash Core Group
Aug 22, 2014
86
82
58
122
Carribean
I've got some spare time in a week or two. I'd be happy to meet with them in Vienna.
do we need them ?
Basically it's a lot of work and they are looking for 2 more full time Java devs themselves just to advance their project.
Stonehedge it would be very useful you go talk to them. And I think you'd be very welcome. They are thinking about a strategy to approach alts for integration to let the project be better known.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitsquare/jP58Np_MwMk

Interesting side note: Mike Hearn joins in the discussion there with some tips for them.

They just don't want to be caught up with shitcoins. As the only alt with long term potential plus their interest in anonymity we would be their perfect partner :)

why Java? They use bitcoinj to integrate with the bitcoin protocol. We'd need bitcoinj to be ported to darkcoinj and then it would be pretty easy for them to support us. We had this discussion before. Let me see if I can find it...

EDIT: we already have darkcoinj https://github.com/HashEngineering/darkcoinj
 

Cofresí

Member
Dash Core Group
Aug 22, 2014
86
82
58
122
Carribean
We have another killer argument why they should work with us and integrate drk: a huge advantage in Darkcoin will be the masternodes consensus system which Evan will develop for InstantX. The same or a similar mechanism could be used for automated arbiters. Even for automatical bid ask matching.

"Economists assume a trusted intermediary operates the mechanism. Here's a simple example of using this virtual computer for a mechanism. Alice can submit a bid price, and Bob an ask price, then their shared virtual program which has one instruction, "A greater than B?". The computer then returns "true" if Alice's bid is greater than Bob's offer. A slightly more sophisticated computer may then decide the settlement price according to a number of different algorithms (Alice's bid, Bob's ask, split the difference, etc.) This implements the mechanism "blind bargaining" with no trusted intermediary."

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/msc.html

The "virtual computer" needs to be trustless and not a lot of "computers" can provide this service. But masternodes can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TanteStefana

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
I think we should get Minotaur to get in touch with them
as he is our Biz Developer and definitely the man for the job !
 
  • Like
Reactions: stonehedge

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
We have another killer argument why they should work with us and integrate drk: a huge advantage in Darkcoin will be the masternodes consensus system which Evan will develop for InstantX. The same or a similar mechanism could be used for automated arbiters. Even for automatical bid ask matching.

"Economists assume a trusted intermediary operates the mechanism. Here's a simple example of using this virtual computer for a mechanism. Alice can submit a bid price, and Bob an ask price, then their shared virtual program which has one instruction, "A greater than B?". The computer then returns "true" if Alice's bid is greater than Bob's offer. A slightly more sophisticated computer may then decide the settlement price according to a number of different algorithms (Alice's bid, Bob's ask, split the difference, etc.) This implements the mechanism "blind bargaining" with no trusted intermediary."

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/msc.html

The "virtual computer" needs to be trustless and not a lot of "computers" can provide this service. But masternodes can.
Good thinking !!!
 

thelonecrouton

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 15, 2014
1,135
813
283
The reason there aren't any useable p2p exchanges yet is because they introduce problems that nobody has yet solved.

There are two models that I have come up with:

1. p2p exchange/marketplace using a DHT as the 'market database' - think bittorrent, but instead of peers swapping files, all they swap/propagate to other connected peers is the database of what's for sale. This db would include, for example, seller, product, price, contact info etc.

2. Use Masternodes or some other server network to host the database, distributed and kept current between Masternodes, and have a separate client to access them. Think usenet, but again, it's not a million different files that need hosting, just the one current database.

Either way, it's fairly easy to have the whole thing end to end encrypted, and limit user access via keys that for example a seller might need to grant you to view their wares and buy from them.

There are other problems though with both approaches.

In both cases, I have yet to come up with a bulletproof way of preventing spam and deliberate market corruption, this is particularly true of #1. You need a mechanism to prevent peers from flooding the marketplace/exchange (I use the terms interchangeably, because they are at root the same thing - a means of connecting buyers and sellers) with garbage.

One approach would be to charge for access - difficult to do with #1, another would be a reputation system that limited injections according to a scale based on past behaviour and feedback from other peers - still not exactly rock solid.

Approach #2, even with IP obfuscation of the hosts, leaves server ops potentially liable for content they host, and is less truly 'p2peery' - but then usenet existed before the www, and usenet will exist after the www... ;) However #2 also makes spam control far simpler, as there would exist a distributed 'authority' to cull garbage.

Another thing that users are going to have to get used to is that p2p trading is going to require a bit more effort on their part. Buyers and sellers are going to have to liase with each other, and arbiters if required, there is no automated way of doing this that maintains perfect market freedom and does not lead to restriction of trade through centralised services. Such is the price you pay for not having a 3rd party do everything for you, including run off with your money.

p2p markets would also hopefully deal with the problem that plagues current centralised exchanges - idiots leaving their money on the exchange which makes it trivial for exchange owners to game the market with that money via bots, or simply steal it. The current concept most people have of an exchange order book may need to be revised, but IMO this is a good thing.

The arbitration thing is easy, just have an arbiter market offering multisig escrow in whatever currency the arbiter is competent to do it in. Bitcoin and Darkcoin work exactly the same way here, if you have a tool to do one, a simple find/replace bitcoind/darkcoind in the code will get you the other. I could put a radio button and corresponding variable in one of my simple tools to select which in a few minutes. I imagine bitcoinj/darkcoinj are the same story, if you're using that as a back end.

Heh, I could go on for hours, but I need my morning coffee. Just thought I'd throw some thoughts out there.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Cofresí

Member
Dash Core Group
Aug 22, 2014
86
82
58
122
Carribean
Another thing that users are going to have to get used to is that p2p trading is going to require a bit more effort on their part. Buyers and sellers are going to have to liase with each other, and arbiters if required, there is no automated way of doing this that maintains perfect market freedom and does not lead to restriction of trade through centralised services. Such is the price you pay for not having a 3rd party do everything for you, including run off with your money.

The arbitration thing is easy, just have an arbiter market offering multisig escrow in whatever currency the arbiter is competent to do it in. Bitcoin and Darkcoin work exactly the same way here, if you have a tool to do one, a simple find/replace bitcoind/darkcoind in the code will get you the other. I could put a radio button and corresponding variable in one of my simple tools to select which in a few minutes. I imagine bitcoinj/darkcoinj are the same story, if you're using that as a back end.
What if the abitration is automated by the masternodes? What if they are the 3rd party? See my previous post with my link to the "God Protocols" by Szabo. What if a random subset of masternodes could become a reliable source of automated checking functions, protocol enforcers. There could be even be a masternode api developed for simple checking functions like blockchain lookup, bid ask order matching in a database etc.

Heh, I could go on for hours, but I need my morning coffee. Just thought I'd throw some thoughts out there.
you need more coffee ;)
 

tungfa

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Apr 9, 2014
8,898
6,744
1,283
what about smart contracts !
isn't that what they can/should do trust less ?
 

thelonecrouton

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 15, 2014
1,135
813
283
What if the abitration is automated by the masternodes? What if they are the 3rd party? See my previous post with my link to the "God Protocols" by Szabo. What if a random subset of masternodes could become a reliable source of automated checking functions, protocol enforcers. There could be even be a masternode api developed for simple checking functions like blockchain lookup, bid ask order matching in a database etc.
That could work. I think any exchange stuff should be kept discreet from the core coin machinery though. The server just needs db access like any other peer, plus a few admin capabilities, and could offer escrow via whatever backend, running the whole thing as a different user, I'd leave the MN daemon alone, although I used it without issue in one of my little multisig demos.
 

Cofresí

Member
Dash Core Group
Aug 22, 2014
86
82
58
122
Carribean
Another thing that users are going to have to get used to is that p2p trading is going to require a bit more effort on their part. Buyers and sellers are going to have to liase with each other, and arbiters if required, there is no automated way of doing this that maintains perfect market freedom and does not lead to restriction of trade through centralised services.
Sir Crouton mentions an very important practical aspect of p2p exchanges. More "effort" in p2p trading is maybe acceptable in case you are selling and buying goods. Especially not easy to come by goods. But for a currency exchange? Imagine having to wait for a human arbiter to intervene and check if the price you paid into your one time multisig trading wallet is exactly the correct amount which you agreed to pay on settlement? And then check the seller's account? And then sign and release the payment? Forget it. http://bitsquare.io/ , which has been developed by Manfred Karrer with Fiat to BTC in mind, solves some tedious aspects of the arbiter problem with collateral payments. The speed aspect however has not been solved afaik. And it's not a big issue in fiat to btc too, because the bank wire is not instantanous (yes! 1:0 for cryptocurrencies). In order to solve the speed problem there needs to be an automated mechanism of some kind. It could be centralised and trusted, like in the existing centralised exchanges. But then we're back to the issue of whoever controls the automated mechanism can fix the price. Or it could be decentralised and trustless. POW is not really very attractive in solving the speed problem because you don't want to wait 2.5, no, not even 1 minute, until you know if your market order was filled or not. You need a pretty quick response or you will fall back to use centralised exchanges next time you want to sodl your dark (don't ever do that!). But what other decentralised mechanism do we know of, which is not POW? Hmmm.... maybe a consensus of randomly selected masternodes which are quick as lightning and ready to go whenever you need them? Sound about right to me. I think whoever will develop a decentralised currency exchange really needs the masternode architecture, or a derivative thereof. bitsquare needs us. Just saying.

On the other hand, think of what it would mean for dark to showcase the first decentralised currency exchange built on the masternode architecture, using the instantX-style consensus mechanism. People have been talking about the possiblity of decentralised stock exchanges (I mean stock exchange like NYSE, Nasdaq, CBOT etc) that can be built on the bitcoin protocol for years. Can the bitcoin architecture solve the speed problem? If we can solve the speed problem for this little currency exchange thingy it would be huge. But that would only be the beginning :eek: