Localbitcoins features

acidburn

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Hello

Many folks don't know me but is lingering in the background from when dash had its peak. I've been working behind closed doors on various related projects but nothing directly related to dash just yet.

I've got a degree in computer science and since graduating I've worked on Android and the Java stack followed all the way through to the c# web stack.

So my question is... Rather than clone local bitcoins.com but instead create a whole new one for dash.

What features are required? In terms of user stories.
 

moli

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Hello

Many folks don't know me but is lingering in the background from when dash had its peak. I've been working behind closed doors on various related projects but nothing directly related to dash just yet.

I've got a degree in computer science and since graduating I've worked on Android and the Java stack followed all the way through to the c# web stack.

So my question is... Rather than clone local bitcoins.com but instead create a whole new one for dash.

What features are required? In terms of user stories.
What do you mean "clone local bitcoins.com" ? AFAIK, localbitcoins.com is privately owned by someone in Finland, and its website is not open sourced, correct?

https://localbitcoins.com/about
 
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acidburn

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You're correct. My apologiea for the confusion Moli.

I was going to try and build a site that traders can post up local adverts and buyers can browse. A bit like local bitcoins but not quite the extensive features.

The hardest part which would be the Icing on the cake is an Escrow service but I don't know anything about them never mind trying to implement a code based one.
 

moli

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You're correct. My apologiea for the confusion Moli.

I was going to try and build a site that traders can post up local adverts and buyers can browse. A bit like local bitcoins but not quite the extensive features.

The hardest part which would be the Icing on the cake is an Escrow service but I don't know anything about them never mind trying to implement a code based one.
Here is a year-old article on the interview of the founder of localbitcoins:
http://bitcoinist.net/exclusive-interview-with-founder-of-localbitcoins-com-jeremias-kangas/

Regarding the escrow question:

Can you explain more how the escrow works?

“You have to get a local bitcoins wallet and the bitcoins there. When escrow is enabled someone requests and amount and is locked in the service. When the one selling the bitcoins is happy he receives the bitcoins through whatever form of payment and is happy he releases bitcoin to the buyer. After that the buyer can withdraw from the wallet to another or use them on local bitcoins.”

So you act as a party of trust between seller and buyer and you release the bitcoins to the buyer.

“Yes that is exactly right.”
The history of localbitcoins.com:
What is the history of LocalBitcoins.com – how did it get started?

“I started working with bitcoin in 2011 and I started a lot of small projects – most did not go anywhere. Then I started localbitcoins in 2012. At first there was like 5 different websites which listed trading locations or bitcoin traders on a map. So I made in 2 weeks this site with location and if you are willing to sell or buy bitcoins. The day I released it – people really quickly began signing up and listing their locations. 2012 I spent all my money developing the website. I implemented the escrow business model in late 2012 and by beginning of January 2013 it started making money. By the closing of 2013 it was single man process but more than a year later we employ 9 people and freelancers all over the world. It has grown pretty fast.”
They have "online trades" and "local trades": https://localbitcoins.com/faq

I've used their local trades, quite interesting. Their website is quite easy for anyone to use. But i'm sure it takes good coding skills, money, and many hours of labor to create such a fantastic business.. Good luck. :)
 
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MrZilch

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YUS ! I have been eagerly awaiting a LBC clone for dash. Honestly LBC is great. there is a few features with LBC I would change ( the coupon system etc) but LBC is solid as a rock. Honestly just use their platform as a blueprint. im studying comp sci atm and would love to help in some way if I can !! PM me.
 

GrandMasterDash

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I'm not very familiar with LBC but I think it has the usual AML / KYC.. which tbh is a PITA. Maybe you could go with something more like Mycelium's Local Trader?

And please, for anyone thinking of doing exchange stuff, please don't charge percentages because that just takes away from what cyrpto is meant to be good at. Tiered pricing would be better.
 

MrZilch

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I'm not very familiar with LBC but I think it has the usual AML / KYC.. which tbh is a PITA. Maybe you could go with something more like Mycelium's Local Trader?

And please, for anyone thinking of doing exchange stuff, please don't charge percentages because that just takes away from what cyrpto is meant to be good at. Tiered pricing would be better.
No LBC has none of that AML / KYC regulation b/s. Its up to the sellers if they want to deal with buyers. (feedback system) And LBC charge a flat 1% on trades (paid automatically out of each trade in BTC), which anyone that uses their platform is more than happy to pay ! ( well worth it & you just account for it with your price) . This service needs to charge a fee. If its free there is no incentive for devs to maintain it etc.

I urge you to go and make a small purchase/ or sale through LBC, the whole thing is freeeeeking magical as a buyer and seller !!
 
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cas

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Cas, I'll hold off. Is there anything I can do to help?
Not at the moment acidburn. I will be sure to come here If I am in need of any help though.
The dash community seems very willing to help out.
Sorry if my reply's are slow, I am very busy.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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No LBC has none of that AML / KYC regulation b/s. Its up to the sellers if they want to deal with buyers. (feedback system) And LBC charge a flat 1% on trades (paid automatically out of each trade in BTC), which anyone that uses their platform is more than happy to pay ! ( well worth it & you just account for it with your price) . This service needs to charge a fee. If its free there is no incentive for devs to maintain it etc.

I urge you to go and make a small purchase/ or sale through LBC, the whole thing is freeeeeking magical as a buyer and seller !!
From my very limited experience, most of the sellers are asking for ID.

I'm not suggesting a free service, I just don't agree with charges based on percentage. The main selling point for cryptocurrencies is it's near-flat fee structure. Then an exchange comes along and takes us back to where we were before. If I'm buying $600 of dash, why must it be more expensive than $400 of dash?
 
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moli

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Localbitcoins.com does not have AML and KYC. The laws vary depending on where you live. Localbitcoins acts as an escrow service more or less.

I'm not sure what sellers are required on their site but as a buyer, you are not required to submit your identifications like you would have to with some exchanges like Bitfinex when it comes to trading with USD. I used their local trade service, the seller only asked to see my ID when I bought btc for $300, and that was a year ago, not sure at what amount they want to see your ID now, and sellers do this to cover for themselves just in case you're an LE pretending to buy btc to check up on them, imo.

Sellers aren't required to keep info of your ID. Once you establish trust with a seller, you and the seller can have direct trading outside of LBC, and that's totally up to you and the seller, so LBC is a very nice gateway to connect people to buy and sell crypto.

upload_2015-10-19_8-58-38.png



About the fee.. As a buyer you don't have to pay a fee to LBC, it's a fee for sellers. Imo, 1% is low and reasonable. Businesses aren't run for free, business owners aren't making money without having to pay for their own expenses such as employee payroll, web servers.. etc..

upload_2015-10-19_9-4-39.png


If anyone could create this escrow model for dash, it would be a wonderful service and we should support them by paying that little fee, instead of expecting their service for free. just my 2 cents as usual.
 

MrZilch

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From my very limited experience, most of the sellers are asking for ID.

I'm not suggesting a free service, I just don't agree with charges based on percentage. The main selling point for cryptocurrencies is it's near-flat fee structure. Then an exchange comes along and takes us back to where we were before. If I'm buying $600 of dash, why must it be more expensive than $400 of dash?
Depends on the payment methods customers opt to use. I sell on LBC and when a customer does a cash deposit at the teller or through an ATM i dont need to see any ID. If the buyer wants to pay directly to my bank account (online transfer) depending on their feedback I may ask to see ID. The buyer can always refuse. The reason sellers ask for ID is because of the high rate of fraud associated with BTC trading. Eg hacked bank accounts. So yes you may have been asked for ID but its very easy to get coins from LBC with out showing any.

And as a seller of course I have to pay more for selling $600 worth of dash over $400. LBC charge 1% fee. I dont see your argument here ? I mean when you have a lot of any coin on any exchange its more risky for you and the exchange and I would hope the exchange invests more money into security. The more money sitting on an exchange the more risk for the exchange. Do you think 1% is unreasonable for thins kind of project? ( remember as a seller you set the price you want to sell your coins for its not set by the exchange, (LBC)) Also remember LBC selling rates are usually higher than what you can get from a 'normal' exchange.

IMO these platforms need to charge some kind of fee in order to keep the service of high quality.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Depends on the payment methods customers opt to use. I sell on LBC and when a customer does a cash deposit at the teller or through an ATM i dont need to see any ID. If the buyer wants to pay directly to my bank account (online transfer) depending on their feedback I may ask to see ID. The buyer can always refuse. The reason sellers ask for ID is because of the high rate of fraud associated with BTC trading. Eg hacked bank accounts. So yes you may have been asked for ID but its very easy to get coins from LBC with out showing any.

And as a seller of course I have to pay more for selling $600 worth of dash over $400. LBC charge 1% fee. I dont see your argument here ? I mean when you have a lot of any coin on any exchange its more risky for you and the exchange and I would hope the exchange invests more money into security. The more money sitting on an exchange the more risk for the exchange. Do you think 1% is unreasonable for thins kind of project? ( remember as a seller you set the price you want to sell your coins for its not set by the exchange, (LBC)) Also remember LBC selling rates are usually higher than what you can get from a 'normal' exchange.

IMO these platforms need to charge some kind of fee in order to keep the service of high quality.
Yes, I do think 1% is unfair.. not because of the gross amount but because of the principle. If percentages are better than tiered rates, then why don't we change the dash protocol to also be percentage based?

To put it another way, if I can make $6 on a $600 trade, why should I accept $4 for the same amount of work? It need not be the blind luck of value in trade that may or may not come my way... but rather the volume of work I get... "an honest days work"

Crypto came along and said, "hey, you know what, we can do a near-flat fee regardless of value".. but then along comes the old-school and puts us back on stupid percentages.
 

moli

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Yes, I do think 1% is unfair.. not because of the gross amount but because of the principle. If percentages are better than tiered rates, then why don't we change the dash protocol to also be percentage based?
What's a tiered rate? What's a percentage based protocol? Is it even possible?

To put it another way, if I can make $6 on a $600 trade, why should I accept $4 for the same amount of work? It need not be the blind luck of value in trade that may or may not come my way... but rather the volume of work I get... "an honest days work"
Crypto came along and said, "hey, you know what, we can do a near-flat fee regardless of value".. but then along comes the old-school and puts us back on stupid percentages.
If you're a dash seller, you have to mine or buy dash and then resell. As a miner, it costs more electricity and equipment tear and wear to mine 300 dash than 100 dash. Also it costs more to pay for the fees of buying 300 dash than 100 dash from an exchange or another seller.

Also if a "localdash" escrow service charges a flat fee, say $10 USD for any amount in exchange. How does it justify if a seller sells 5 USD worth of dash and has to pay $10 USD in fees, yet. another seller sells $1000 USD worth of dash and only has to pay $10 in fees. What's the logic?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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What's a tiered rate? What's a percentage based protocol? Is it even possible?


If you're a dash seller, you have to mine or buy dash and then resell. As a miner, it costs more electricity and equipment tear and wear to mine 300 dash than 100 dash. Also it costs more to pay for the fees of buying 300 dash than 100 dash from an exchange or another seller.

Also if a "localdash" escrow service charges a flat fee, say $10 USD for any amount in exchange. How does it justify if a seller sells 5 USD worth of dash and has to pay $10 USD in fees, yet. another seller sells $1000 USD worth of dash and only has to pay $10 in fees. What's the logic?
First of all, you're confusing the cost of mining with the trading costs for switching in and out of fiat. They're not the same.

You came up with $10 because it's 1% of $1000. And then you implied you would do the exact same work for just $0.05 because the seller just wants to sell $5. You're basically saying, you'll charge one person one price and another person a different price for the same amount of work.

With tiered pricing, we might have one flat fee for transactions under $1000, and a higher fee between $1000 - $9999.99, and yet another fee for transactions over $10K. The reasoning might be, for example, additional admin costs or AML compliance.
 

moli

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First of all, you're confusing the cost of mining with the trading costs for switching in and out of fiat. They're not the same.

You came up with $10 because it's 1% of $1000. And then you implied you would do the exact same work for just $0.05 because the seller just wants to sell $5. You're basically saying, you'll charge one person one price and another person a different price for the same amount of work.

With tiered pricing, we might have one flat fee for transactions under $1000, and a higher fee between $1000 - $9999.99, and yet another fee for transactions over $10K. The reasoning might be, for example, additional admin costs or AML compliance.
Oops... sorry, I was using the scenario of seller's costs and fee without counting the escrow service in the equation, meaning if i was a direct seller I would count my costs in the price..

But put that aside, a flat fee is still cheaper for larger transactions and more expensive for smaller transactions. It's not going to help the little guys. Your logic seems like the debate for a flat income tax, but i don't see it can make crypto sellers agree to it, and we can argue forever like the flat income tax debate but it's not going anywhere.. :tongue:
 

TanteStefana

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Yes, I do think 1% is unfair.. not because of the gross amount but because of the principle. If percentages are better than tiered rates, then why don't we change the dash protocol to also be percentage based?

To put it another way, if I can make $6 on a $600 trade, why should I accept $4 for the same amount of work? It need not be the blind luck of value in trade that may or may not come my way... but rather the volume of work I get... "an honest days work"

Crypto came along and said, "hey, you know what, we can do a near-flat fee regardless of value".. but then along comes the old-school and puts us back on stupid percentages.
The problem with this is it gives a huge advantage to those with the most funds, and makes it far too expensive for a small time buyer or seller to buy/sell. Say a person wants to sell $10 worth of dash and they had to pay $5 (lets say that's the average price the business needs to run) and then another seller sells 5000 coins, with a $5 charge. Sure, it's great for the big guy, but not the little guy. This is a business after all, not a social service. He wants to be fair to his customers. I think a % charge of the total of the transaction is the fairest way for them to do business.
 

TanteStefana

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anyway, acidburn , I don't know if you're interested in such a project but what if you helped on the idea of a decentralized exchange? The way I see it, we could build a new node network, it would hook into Dash via the API, if it needs hashing to work, and these nodes would run just like in Dash but they would service the exchange. They would exchange crypto to crypto only, as it's the only thing I can see doing this way, and for fiat, that could be taken care of with a marketplace that is either on a completely different node system or the same node system. this way. Thus, the exchange and the market place would charge very small fees while accepting a large range of coins. Of course the fees are paid out to the nodes just as they are to the MN network, it would work exactly the same way, just in parallel.

https://dashtalk.org/threads/pre-proposal-discussion-openbazaar-dash-integration.6379/
https://dashtalk.org/threads/p2p-ex...-to-help-with-code-review-and-estimates.6879/

Evan has stated he doesn't want this to be inside DashCore, but certainly supports this, as we all know it's essential. And if we could build a team to work on this and hash out ideas and how to make it work, we might be ready to start coding when Evolution's DAPI comes out. This goes for you too, cas unless you are planing on a private venture :)

In my best Aragorn impersonation, I ask you "What say you!?" :)

If you guys are willing to make a team, we should start a thread or make a spot on IRC or something to have a place to work/talk :) (nice how I slip myself in there, eh?) Or you can do it in private and lock me out, ROFLMAO :)
 

GrandMasterDash

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To say it's a "huge advantage to those with the most funds" is to say what exactly? Do you also propose that the dash protocol also work in percentages to "fix" these advantages / disadvantages you imagine? Should we no longer sing the virtue of near-flat fees in crypto?

But yeah, if you're going to propose carefully selected bad examples to make your case, then of course it makes sense to you.

Tier structures can be fair and reasonable. As are other models of operation, such as paying for blocks of work.

As a business, maybe you charge in percentage and nothing but bad luck brings low volume... is that because of the percentage rate or something else in the market, such as disinteres? What if the volume is normal but the transactions larger than normal? ... was that too down to your carefully selected percentage rates or, again, due to something else in the market? You think you're gaining when the market is up, but equally you've got lost potential when the market is down.

In your world, there would never be flat fee transport prices because the people traveling a short distance are being overcharged... but let me tell you, London works just fine that way.
 

tungfa

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Just updating here our development of a localdash service is steady under way. It is taking longer than initially expected however we are winning.
With any luck we may release in a 6 weeks.
tx for the update
no need to rush into this , do your thing , take your time
6 weeks is nothing (ready for spring)
;)
super excited
 

SnowHater

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Just updating here our development of a localdash service is steady under way. It is taking longer than initially expected however we are winning.
With any luck we may release in a 6 weeks.
Cool. What do you guys think about a possibility of moving localdash to ZeroNet in future? It could bring no blocking and no censorship features to it.
 
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cas

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Cool. What do you guys think about a possibility of moving localdash to ZeroNet in future? It could bring no blocking and no censorship features to it.
anything is possible moving forward but we are focusing on one thing at a time here so we do it well =)
 

splawik21

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Just updating here our development of a localdash service is steady under way. It is taking longer than initially expected however we are winning.
With any luck we may release in a 6 weeks.
That would be awesome news!
Looking forward to see your results and test the as well.
 

mart

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Just updating here our development of a localdash service is steady under way. It is taking longer than initially expected however we are winning.
With any luck we may release in a 6 weeks.
Hi!
How is it going?
Very interested to use this kind of service.

(But my several projects have failed because of this kind of waterfall style development... It's not wise to code for months without a release. Just start with something very simple in LIVE, make updates every week... it makes a big difference in my experience.)
Hope You get the service up soon! :)
 

amanda_b_johnson

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I would soooooooo use a LBC for Dash. I have used LBC quite a lot, actually -- not as a career buyer or seller, but just to convert between crypto and fiat without using banks or ID. (I have no bank account, and I don't like giving out ID).

I have purchased fiat from LBC in the mail (yes, really, cash in the mail) as well as multiple gift card codes. @cas and @acidburn, as far as architecture ideas, I also had a good experience with buying BTC from WallofCoins.com. They do escrow and all that, just with a different-feeling process. WallofCoins is also simpler than LBC.

Thanks and good luck. I'd support this for funding, too.