I think Dash needs some changes

kot

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Mar 17, 2015
803
2,074
263
Dear Dash Community Members,

I would like to offer my thoughts about the project direction and possible changes we, as a project and community, should consider. I am not writing this to demand changes but rather offer my point of view and have productive conversation about the project's future.

I think Dash needs some corrections on strategic and operational levels and I would like to present some of my propositions on this matter. I am not going to argue with those who think the direction of the project is correct - this is not my intention.
The intention of this post is to focus on improvements and a better future of the project. This only - no fights, unproductive arguments and finger-pointing.

Few years ago, when Evan was still around, the brilliant idea of Evolution was created. At that time Dash was already a payments-focused project and Evolution was going to be a great supplement for the project's strategy. It was going to be a Venmo-like wallet run on blockchain. Sadly, Evan left the project and other engineers continued his work. Simple solution (wallet with user names and list of friends) grew to the idea of a development platform and DashPay wallet. According to the development teams, it was supposed to take only a few months to develop the platform and wallet, so the management team made a decision to go into that direction, despite possible delays. From the business perspective it was much more attractive and the estimated difference in the delivery time (3-6 months, according to the devs) was insignificant, compared to the possible advantages. It was 2018 - you know the rest very well.

2018 was also a year when the market crashed and DCG had to make many difficult decisions about the budget and headcount. The development teams constantly assured us about the relatively quick delivery time of the platform, management made a decision to focus on technology delivery, and not on other equally important iniatiatives such as marketing, comms, bizdev. All of our efforts and funds were used to retain developers and deliver Evo. This approach has not changed to this day and I consider it to be a mistake. I confess that as a member of senior management I am also guilty that it was kept this way for such a long time.

Crypto industry evolved, markets evolved, communities evolved but Dash remained narrowly focused on Evolution delivery and focused solely on developers and delivering the best possible technology. We can see now that it was not a perfect choice - markets punished us hard for this choice.

In my opinion changes in the current strategy and direction are necessary, if the Dash network wants to survive and thrive. We have always heard from our devs that good tech is going to defend itself and eventually will be recognized by the markets. I think the reality does not support this claim anymore. We have probably the best tech in the industry and despite this, the project is slowly fading (from the market perspective). Much (technologically) weaker projects managed to explode in the space - projects that are still in development, or completely without development, constantly failing (eg. stopped blockchains) are much more recognized and have a much better position in the industry. I think we should stop ignoring markets? and put more focus on what is working for other projects. And follow. Let's not repeat the same mistakes, expecting different outcomes.

It seems like the common thing to successful projects in our space is not a great tech, perfect decentralisation, sophisticated solutions and focus on development but instead:
  1. Focus on promotion and marketing
  2. Consistent, effective and incremental technology development and delivery
  3. Welcoming and enthusiastic communities around the world

So what, in my opinion, could we change?

1. More promotion and marketing
We already have great tech - there is no doubt about it. And almost no one knows about it. I am pretty sure that there is no need to create more new products or more sophisticated tech-oriented solutions. What is needed instead is cheering on what we are having, comparing to the competitors, screaming how good we are, creating videos, memes, messages etc. We have a lot to talk about.

After the expected platform release, I think there will be no necessity to put more money and effort into developing more tech. I think that much better use of the network money would be to spend it on promotion. It doesn't mean that we should stop development - no. I think we should limit money spent on development for a year or two and redirect this money towards promotion and marketing. Existing development teams should not be expanded but focus more on documentation, marketing support and actively participate in the promotion efforts (e.g. by doing videos, samples, tutorials, joining development communities and promoting our tech). Their help will be largely needed to promote the platform in the development community.

Recent changes in DCG communications and growing efforts on the community side created a solid foundation for better promotion. This created a constant flow of Dash-related information, increased visibility of the project and it should be definitely continued.
I think what is missing is a professional marketing campaign, driven by experienced agencies and/or people, who have experience in the field.
Dash needs good promotion and recognition - and there are people out there, who could help us to achieve it. In my opinion we don’t need perfection, we don’t need more experiments with DAO, we don’t need radical transparency, we don’t need more tech etc. We have made many of those experiments and we are pioneers in many things. However, we don’t have to be pioneers in everything and constantly experiment.
Let’s simply use the tools that work. Traditional marketing works.

So what would be my proposition here?
  1. Continue community and DCG efforts in constant flow of messages, communication and promotion. This is a great foundation and starts working well.
  2. When the platform is launched, move developers to promote it in the development community, create videos, visual materials, code samples, tutorials, great docs, articles, participate in conferences and hackathons and engage in discussions with other devs. Just don’t stay hidden in the caves or create more and more features - we don’t need more.
  3. As a supplement for the foundation, from time to time (not constantly) launch campaigns with professional agencies. Good example is Coca-Cola and their summer campaigns. When the time is right - which in our case is a bull market - we should push hard. Agencies from the industry know how to do it - they successfully promoted many projects. Let’s use their experience, hire them and work together. There is no magic in that - one or two experienced PMs could coordinate these efforts. What is needed is money. We could collect the funds earlier - slowly, to not drain the budget, and prepare for the right time.
    What is important is to not do these campaigns during the bear market - it would be a total waste of money.
2. Less focus on tech and developers
Just to be clear - by writing “developers” in this post, I mean all functions within DCG that are responsible for the code: developers, tech leads and CTO.

It is not easy to say but it needs to be said. Simple and straightforward - for a couple of years this project has been kept hostage by developers. And this needs to be changed.

As mentioned above, in 2018 the Dash network and DCG became focused on developers and gave them a lot of power and independence. And since then we were hearing that we need 3-6 months to deliver. We have GREAT developers but we also have problems with developers and the delivery process. It requires changes - the good thing is that those changes are easy to do.

The biggest of our problems is that developers are cheered, almost worshipped, despite not delivering as promised and not kept accountable for that. We have always shielded our devs. As a result, they do whatever they want, without focus on the delivery but with focus on development instead. If you let developers drive the project, they will do what they do the best - they will develop the code (the more sophisticated and geeky, the better) as development is fun for them - but this is not necessarily what the project needs. We need timely delivery, releases and products - not more and more super-complicated code.
This should be acknowledged and changed. We need results and delivery, not development for the sake of developing code.

There were tons of books written about why you should not give developers power to lead the project and product development. I am not going to repeat that - DYOR. Great summary of this is this the tweet from Andreas - it reflects our situation very well:
Just watch the latest 2-3 sprint reviews and you’ll know what I am talking about.

Our efforts should NOT be focused on developing code. Focus should be on delivering products and explaining why these products have value. Value to investors, users and also external developers. Great code is great but this code should serve the purpose of giving value to our users (not just giving fun to developers). And also encourage potential investors to buy Dash. This is really important - don’t ignore the power of the markets.

So I propose to apply the following changes in the delivery process:
  • Delivery excellence should be the key. Keep developers accountable for what they do and what they promise. Make sure they understand the goal of what we are doing (and this goal is not to develop as much code as possible to be clear)
  • Replace those, who don’t deliver like they promised or are unreliable. Accidental failures can be tolerated, constant failures and broken promises not.
  • Let other people do what they should do and let them control developers. We have other people, who could improve the delivery process a lot - let them work and not interfere. Scrum Masters should oversee the development process. Product Owners should control product roadmaps and delivery of products. SMs and POs should oversee and control developers, not the other way around.
  • Create a clear vision of what is going to be delivered and explain what is done already. In a simple language, understandable for the average person. Geeky, tech language is counterproductive in the long run - people don’t understand that.
  • Better plan of the releases. Avoid big releases (platform is a great example of that mistake) and plan small, incremental releases instead.
  • No releases during the bear market (or at least minimal number of releases). Bear market annihilates the positive impact of the releases - we have experienced this already. Market situation has a big impact on the project and Bitcoin dictates the market situation. Follow the market.
  • Last but not least - put the right people in charge and give them power to apply necessary changes. Even if those changes are difficult. If we don’t want to have more years of development but effective delivery instead, changes are absolutely necessary. Start from CEO - in my opinion it should be a market-, business- and user-oriented individual with a good understanding of financial business. We should only consider a person whose primary objective is the quick delivery of a platform.
  • On the other hand, if you think everything is great, any changes are unnecessary.

There is also an option to contract an external party, completely detached from the project, to make an audit and assessment of the technology development situation in DCG. They would create a report and suggest necessary changes - this is not uncommon and there are many consulting companies doing such assessments of agile companies. It is also not expensive. I would strongly recommend considering this to gain an external perspective on the internal challenges instead of relying solely on DCG internal developers opinions as those may be biased.
3. Community evolution
I think we also need change and evolution in our community. I remember well what a great community we were. Community is a vital part of the project and the backbone of it. We don’t need politics, manipulation, “transparency”, “investigations” etc. Dash needs enthusiastic and positive people who are all working together to make the Dash network successful..
I am not going to write a big elaborate entry here. Let’s just eliminate negativity and those who create it - it doesn’t serve the project in any positive way. Let’s focus on building a positive message, supporting those who do things, being welcoming to new people, inspiring positive change, supporting each other, and spreading the word about the project. I think you know very well what I mean here.

If you managed to read this to this moment - thank you very much. Please let me know what your opinion is about the changes needed for Dash.
I am happy to have a productive discussion and help make necessary changes, as I have much more free time now, and care deeply about this project.

Robert
 

Dans

New Member
Oct 3, 2020
35
36
18
47
There are two ways to learn based on errors:

1- own mistakes

2-mistakes of others.

Unfortunately we have chosen the second mode for several years.

I understand your position, and I appreciate your view of the current problem, from your perspective.


I support what you say, as sometimes, it is not necessary to achieve perfection, simply granting usefulness is more than enough.

As for the budget for programmers, engineers, and so on... if we have a working product, I guess we'll just need a smaller maintenance group, and not a huge set of programmers with nothing to code.

Regarding the issue of marketing, I consider it as something fundamental that must be treated very carefully. It is not the same to shoot 1000 bullets without aiming than one well-aimed one that hits the target.

Throwing funds away to promote minor events, I see it as absurd. I always remember everything that happened in Venezuela and that it has not been of much use seeing the popularity of Dash.

However, we all remember Matt Damon in the Cripto.com advertising

Take the platform forward and then you can focus a large part of the budget on showing it efficiently to the world, and you will see how it will go a long way.

Good luck,
 

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Dear Dash Community Members,
..........rational and informative quotes , I agree with them..............
Crypto industry evolved, markets evolved, communities evolved but Dash remained narrowly focused on Evolution delivery and focused solely on developers and delivering the best possible technology. We can see now that it was not a perfect choice - markets punished us hard for this choice. In my opinion changes in the current strategy and direction are necessary, if the Dash network wants to survive and thrive. We have always heard from our devs that good tech is going to defend itself and eventually will be recognized by the markets. I think the reality does not support this claim anymore. We have probably the best tech in the industry and despite this, the project is slowly fading (from the market perspective). Much (technologically) weaker projects managed to explode in the space - projects that are still in development, or completely without development, constantly failing (eg. stopped blockchains) are much more recognized and have a much better position in the industry.
You made a big mistake in your logic, so I stop reading the rest of the message because it will be based on this absurd assumption.

Regarding Dash platform, Dash platform has the worst tech in the industry, because the scammers you hired as developers decided to wrote the whole thing in javascript. Period. The market recognizes good tech, thats why new governed coins that have good tech and are written in formally verified (or at least fairly secure) languages like cardano, polkadot, tezos, monero, algogrand, cosmos, hedera, helium e.t.c. substituted Dash in the first rows of coinmarketcap.

Javascript language assumes everyone is a good actor, and this principle is the biggest mistake someone can do when designing a cryptocurrency. Stop hiring half-taught sophomoric scammers as dash developers or dash designers, thats the point. Dash Platform developers were(are?) either half-taught sophomoric scammers, or alternatively agents who were paid more by Dash's rivals in order to destroy Dash. No serious cryptocurrency is written in javascript, no serious professional programmer who respects his name and his reputation accepts to code for a cryptocurrency written in javascript.
For the below simple reason, and the market knows that.....


Javascript is a Colosse aux pieds d'argile.

« Ô roi, tu regardais, et tu voyais une grande statue ; cette statue était immense, et d’une splendeur extraordinaire ; elle était debout devant toi, et son aspect était terrible. La tête de cette statue était d’or pur ; sa poitrine et ses bras étaient d’argent ; son ventre et ses cuisses étaient d’airain ; ses jambes, de fer ; ses pieds, en partie de fer et en partie d’argile. Tu regardais, lorsqu’une pierre se détacha sans le secours d’aucune main, frappa les pieds de fer et d’argile de la statue, et les mit en pièces. Alors le fer, l’argile, l’airain, l’argent et l’or, furent brisés ensemble, et devinrent comme la balle qui s’échappe d’une aire en été ; le vent les emporta, et nulle trace n’en fut retrouvée. Mais la pierre qui avait frappé la statue devint une grande montagne, et remplit toute la terre. »
 
Last edited:

qwizzie

Grizzled Member
Aug 6, 2014
2,019
1,200
1,183
Good thing Javascript is getting converted to Rust then, with some 60% finished already by the devs. They may have started Dash Evolution / Dash Platform with Javascript, but they have adapted. Since the conversion from Javascript to Rust is not specifically delaying the release of Dash Platform (its done in parallel), i think this is a good and even necessary direction. In hindsight maybe they should have switched to Rust much earlier, i don't know.

I just wish they got Dash Core v18.0 out to Mainnet by now, it seems to me that is the cause of most of the current Dash project delayment.

Even the planned hard feature freeze for v18.0 is still not firmly in place today

See :

https://github.com/dashpay/dash/issues/4211
&
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-core-v18-0-0-0-rc1-released.53012/post-231114

Dash Platform and its separate parts on the other hand seems pretty much on track for release later this year, looking at the Dash Platform Product Sprint reviews on Youtube.

With regards to marketing, i agree that marketing has far less of an impact during a bear market, then during a bull market. So Dash marketing strategy should adapt to that.

I would have preferred to see a marketing initiative emerged independently from Dash Core Group, funded directly from the DAO and using a marketing agency (or several) that it screened and hired itself. It would function as a Sub-DAO with enough manpower and enough longterm funding to provide effective marketing for Dash.

But i don't see that emerging anytime soon.
 
Last edited:

robert19560415

New Member
May 8, 2022
2
0
1
66
2020 May , dash price was 80. at that point of time, BTC was 7 K, and ETH was 200.

2022 June, dash price is 58, BTC is 30K, and ETH is 1780.

this projecrt is dead. please do not waste investors time and money,
 

qwizzie

Grizzled Member
Aug 6, 2014
2,019
1,200
1,183
2020 May , dash price was 80. at that point of time, BTC was 7 K, and ETH was 200.

2022 June, dash price is 58, BTC is 30K, and ETH is 1780.

this projecrt is dead. please do not waste investors time and money,
Ironically you posting in here is proof that this project is not dead. Why would anyone post in here if he or she truly believes this project is dead ? Why give it that much attention ? Lets face it, you are wayy too much invested in Dash, not necessarily financially, but you sure are following this forum, and you sure are getting triggered to comment in here.

I understand, it is difficult to stop caring about Dash. And stop posting about Dash.

I forgive you, new member.
 

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Good thing Javascript is getting converted to Rust then, with some 60% finished already by the devs.
Who is in charge of converting Dash Platform from javascript to Rust?
Because I cannot see any rust activity in the github.

Rust (programming language) - Wikipedia

"In August 2020, Mozilla laid off 250 of its 1,000 employees worldwide as part of a corporate restructuring caused by the long-term impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.[52][53] The team behind Servo, a browser engine written in Rust, was completely disbanded. The event raised concerns about the future of Rust, as some members of the team were active contributors to Rust.[54]
In the following week, the Rust Core Team acknowledged the severe impact of the layoffs and announced that plans for a Rust foundation were underway. The first goal of the foundation would be to take ownership of all trademarks and domain names, and take financial responsibility for their costs.[55]
On February 8, 2021, the formation of the Rust Foundation was officially announced by its five founding companies (AWS, Huawei, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla).[56][57]
On April 6, 2021, Google announced support for Rust within Android Open Source Project as an alternative to C/C++"
 
Last edited:

qwizzie

Grizzled Member
Aug 6, 2014
2,019
1,200
1,183
Who is in charge of converting Dash Platform from javascript to Rust?
Because I cannot see any rust activity in the github.
See
(timestamp 26:07 / one more thing)
That was from Dash Platform Product Sprint 82 (some three weeks ago).

Latest Dash Platform Product Sprint is 83 and they changed the progress overview there a bit i think and showed 60,9% completion.

(timestamp 31:38 / Rust Port Update)

Anton seems to be the developer in charge of this Rust port.
 
Last edited:

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
The rust language was abbandoned in 2020 (a direct attack of the agents to the only governed cryptocurrency that supports accountability, polkadot, which is entirely written in rust. See how polkadot developers are complaining ), then in 2021 google,huwai,microsoft and mozilla tried to renovate it with a yearly budget of 625000$ (see how polkadot developers complain for compiler bugs)

The question is, is the rust of 2022 the same as the rust of 2020?
Because many old developers of rust have been fired, and others substituted them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CryptoLoans

qwizzie

Grizzled Member
Aug 6, 2014
2,019
1,200
1,183
The rust language was abbandoned in 2020 (an agents's attack to the only cryptocurrency that supports accountability, polkadot which is written in rust), then in 2021 google,huwai,microsoft and mozilla tried to renovate it with a yearly budget of 625000$ .

The question is, is the rust of 2022 the same as the rust of 2020?
Because many developers of rust have been fired, and others substituted them.
You should participate in those Dash Platform Product Sprint sessions and have your question answerred there... they have a Q&A at the end.
Or add your question as comment at the youtube video (better pick latest one, number 83).

Anton was pretty quick with answerring a question of mine about Rust in a previous Sprint session, although that was through Reddit i think.
 
Last edited:

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
You should participate in those Dash Platform Product Sprint sessions and have your question answerred there... they have a Q&A at the end.
Or add your question as comment at the youtube video (better pick latest one, number 83).

Anton was pretty quick with answerring a question of mine about Rust in a previous Sprint session.
I do not like to participate in online-synchronous events. I am offline-asynchronous.

My question is:

If dash is planning to enter the rust field, dash should also become a partner of the rust foundation, and offer grants to the rust community members towards rust's security. If google,huwai,microsoft,mozilla denies to accept dash as an equal rust partner, then rust is obviously taken by the agents.

This is a question to the masternodes, not to Anton.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MN1

qwizzie

Grizzled Member
Aug 6, 2014
2,019
1,200
1,183
By the way, i don't think this

''In August 2020, Mozilla laid off 250 of its 1,000 employees worldwide as part of a corporate restructuring caused by the long-term impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.[52][53] The team behind Servo, a browser engine written in Rust, was completely disbanded. The event raised concerns about the future of Rust, as some members of the team were active contributors to Rust.[54]''

equals your earlier stated :

''The rust language was abbandoned in 2020''
 

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
By the way, i don't think this

''In August 2020, Mozilla laid off 250 of its 1,000 employees worldwide as part of a corporate restructuring caused by the long-term impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.[52][53] The team behind Servo, a browser engine written in Rust, was completely disbanded. The event raised concerns about the future of Rust, as some members of the team were active contributors to Rust.[54]''

equals your stated :

''The rust language was abbandoned in 2020''
Watch the developers.
Contributors to rust-lang/rust · GitHub
The main developer abandoned the language in 2020. His last commit was then.

Then a BOOTSTRAP enthusiast, cloudflare employee appeared.
Also most of the errors in rust are compiler errors that are assigned to someone whose commits in rust started at 2021
 
Last edited:

qwizzie

Grizzled Member
Aug 6, 2014
2,019
1,200
1,183
Watch the developers.
Contributors to rust-lang/rust · GitHub
The original developer abandoned the language in 2020. His last commit was then.

Then a BOOTSTRAP enthusiast appeared.
Rust is an open source project right ? Who cares that the original developer stopped contributing when other developers are still contributing? there were commits entered into the Rust Github a mere three hours ago. Github Issues and pull requests show plenty of healthy activity.

It is like saying Bitcoin is dead because its orginal developer (Satoshi) stopped contributing. Makes no sense.

Edit : anyways, i think we disrupted this thread with all this Rust talk long enough and entertained your unsupported theory about the Rust project taken-over
by 'the agents' more then enough as well.
 
Last edited:

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Rust is an open source project right ? Who cares that the original developer stopped contributing when other developers are still contributing? there were commits entered into the Rust Github a mere three hours ago. Github Issues and pull requests show plenty of healthy activity.

It is like saying Bitcoin is dead because its orginal developer (Satoshi) stopped contributing. Makes no sense.
I dont judge the security of a language, with the numbers of commits. The more commits are done, the less secure may be.

Do you know what bootstraping is? Rust grew out of a personal project begun in 2006 by Mozilla employee Graydon Hoare.[13] During the same year, work had shifted from the initial compiler written in OCaml to an LLVM-based self-hosting compiler written in Rust.[39] The compiler, rustc, successfully compiled itself (bootstaping) in 2011.[40]

Graydon Hoare's original rust is 11260 commits behind the new rust of aws,google,huwaii,microsoft,mozilla
GitHub - graydon/rust: personal fork for work on rust language

I think the dash community should investigate rust language in terms of security, before highly invest in that language.
Is the code of the original compiler of rust written in OCaml available anywhere?
OCAML is a formally verified language.
LLVM is?
 
Last edited:

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
3,320
1,399
1,183
I'm just itching to say, "I told you so" but if @kot is converting to the dark side, I want to welcome him.

Three step plan to turn things around:
1. De-fund DMH (if it hasn't already, I haven't looked at the state of proposals for a long time).
2. Hire professionals for advertising and marketing. It's going to cost a pretty penny, get used to it.
3. De-collateralize masternodes, which is NOT the same thing as reducing the amount. Proof of Service needs to be the only requirement for earning income.
 
  • Wow
  • Like
Reactions: onetime and kot

Marine

Moderator
Dash Core Group
Apr 26, 2022
34
97
18
33
Robert, thank you for such a great post. As comms, I couldn't pass on it.

The changes are in the air, everyone feels them. IMO, Dash stands on the verge of significant paradigm shift.

After 1,5 months of working at DCG, I came up with the conclusion that our previous marketing efforts were hollow.
I absolutely agree that we need to focus on marketing, create effective campaigns, promos and stuff.

But there’s one important thing I would like to mention - marketing agencies not always work effectively. I can affirm it as a marketer with previous experience in agencies and marketing SaaS’. I can affirm it as a marketer came to Dash after Arden who, afaik, also opted for agencies. The problem is that they don’t get involved into a context, they don’t usually care about specifics of a particular service. They do have some strategy templates (taken from Hubspot or Moz or SEMrush or whatever) they’re applying to any company they’re working with without digging into details.

I’m not saying that all agencies suck. What I’m trying to say is that there’s a high risk to end up with another failed attempt to market Dash.

To my opinion, Dash needs a couple of good in-house marketers who could connect the community together and encourage other contributors to get involved into our marketing activities and deliver good performing content for masses. If we get Dash’s marketing work properly (I mean, growing popularity, growing rate, chart soaring on CMC, new customers, developers, hype stuff, you name it), then it can become a huge source of motivation for developers to be more accountable.

Right now, I’m working at DCG’s content strategy and activities for the next few months. These imply:

Dash use cases overview
Brown bag summaries
Platform overviews
Podcasts and AMAs with our partners and DAOs

It’s all about organic traffic and growth, and there are KPIs set for every activity.

I would love to create kick-ass campaigns with agencies of course, but the budget is quite short for these needs. But if organics work properly, then it may open the door to funding for a perfect paid traffic plan.
 
Last edited:

antouhou

New Member
Dash Core Group
Oct 16, 2017
7
23
3
30
Hi! Anton's here.

Rust is one of the main languages used today in the crypto community for a number of reasons. It provides high speed and memory safety while having no GC. Rust doesn't have nullable types and disallows referencing null pointers by default, which makes it extremely well suited for financial applications.

is the rust of 2022 the same as the rust of 2020
Of course not. It's developing. Every alive system is constantly evolving. C++ of 2020 is not the same as C++ in 2022. That's kind of a point of developing something. Mozilla is in financial turmoil at the moment, and they did lay off some of its people, including some working on Rust. Then Amazon picked up most of the slack. There are Rust developers on an Amazon payroll now.

In fact, just last year Linus Torvalds approved Rust, and this year we're going to see the first contributions to the kernel in Rust: https://www.zdnet.com/article/rust-takes-a-major-step-forward-as-linuxs-second-official-language/. Even C++ is not allowed in the Linux kernel. Bare C and Rust would be the only two official kernel languages. I'd say if something is good enough for the Linux kernel, it's good enough for almost anything else.

See how polkadot developers are complaining
I'm not sure what point did you want to prove exactly with this link? The GitHub issue this link leads to is about how Polkadot devs used a non-deterministic std search function in a place where a deterministic one should be used. I mean, yeah, you can complain about the fact that you didn't get how the function you've used works. That's totally a fault of the person who used an inappropriate function, and in no way fault of the language.

TLDR; In the issue above Polkadot devs introduced a bug themselves in their own codebase because they've assumed one of the std functions was deterministic while it wasn't. I'm not sure what this example can be used to prove and what it has to do with accountability.
 

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Hi! Anton's here.

Rust is one of the main languages used today in the crypto community for a number of reasons. It provides high speed and memory safety while having no GC. Rust doesn't have nullable types and disallows referencing null pointers by default, which makes it extremely well suited for financial applications.



Of course not. It's developing. Every alive system is constantly evolving. C++ of 2020 is not the same as C++ in 2022. That's kind of a point of developing something. Mozilla is in financial turmoil at the moment, and they did lay off some of its people, including some working on Rust. Then Amazon picked up most of the slack. There are Rust developers on an Amazon payroll now.

In fact, just last year Linus Torvalds approved Rust, and this year we're going to see the first contributions to the kernel in Rust: https://www.zdnet.com/article/rust-takes-a-major-step-forward-as-linuxs-second-official-language/. Even C++ is not allowed in the Linux kernel. Bare C and Rust would be the only two official kernel languages. I'd say if something is good enough for the Linux kernel, it's good enough for almost anything else.



I'm not sure what point did you want to prove exactly with this link? The GitHub issue this link leads to is about how Polkadot devs used a non-deterministic std search function in a place where a deterministic one should be used. I mean, yeah, you can complain about the fact that you didn't get how the function you've used works. That's totally a fault of the person who used an inappropriate function, and in no way fault of the language.

TLDR; In the issue above Polkadot devs introduced a bug themselves in their own codebase because they've assumed one of the std functions was deterministic while it wasn't. I'm not sure what this example can be used to prove and what it has to do with accountability.
I am a fun of the inherently formally verified languages like haskell (used in Cardano), or OCaml (used in Tezos). Formally verified languages are secure languages, because their behavior is proved mathematically.

I am afraid of the intervention of the agents who want to control everything and especially the cryptocurrencies. Thats why we should rely on mathematical proof of the security of an algorithm or of a language, rather than rely on the skill or on the honesty of the developers, and this applies to Linus Torvalds too.

But of course , as a compromise, I could accept that rust or C are also fairly secure enviroments, unless it is proven otherwise.

Rust's first compiler that was used to create rust and compile the rest rust versions, was written in OCaml, then OCaml was abandonded and LLVM was used. I suspect that the agents may discovered a bug in this first OCaml version (or in the LLVM version) of Rust, that is inherited to all the rest rust versions and they want to get profit of it. Thats why they fired many old rust developers, and hired new ones that are under their control. This is of course a filthy conspiracy theory, and in order to be proved wrong we have to find the first version of rust written in OCaml, formally verify it, then create again the bootstrap of Rust and use it in order to compile the current rust version.

Getting started with Formal Verification Part 1: Introduction and Solvers - YouTube

TLDR; In the issue above Polkadot devs introduced a bug themselves in their own codebase because they've assumed one of the std functions was deterministic while it wasn't. I'm not sure what this example can be used to prove and what it has to do with accountability.
A formally verified/secure software (or hardware) should be deterministic, or at least a deterministic tree of states should spawn from a non-deterministic state. Polkadot devs believed that rust was secure, but after discovering a hidden non deterministic function they may changed their mind. Of course they are tighten to rust language now, and they cannot step back.

Lets not do their mistake, here in Dash. Lets formaly verify everything, lets be based on deterministic/secure/inherently formally verified languages.

Cardano did that, with haskell, and it is on top of coinmarketcap now.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MN1

kot

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Mar 17, 2015
803
2,074
263
Hey @Marine!
Great to see you joining the discussion :) - I think your input might be precious here.
Let me start by thanking you for the positive shift you have made in the main channel communication - it is really visible and I truly appreciate that. I can only say that I regret I had no chance to work with you as one team. Please keep doing what you are doing - it is good :)

I absolutely agree with you that marketing agencies do not always work effectively. The same with literally any agency, contractor, employee, or company - some are good, some are ok others can be ineffective or simply bad. That does not mean we should assume failure when trying to work with any - this would be a catastrophic attitude.
In-house teams could be ineffective the same way as agencies could - this is the reality.

I think we have the same goal in mind, and I also think our propositions are not contradictory. Let me explain what I had in mind and let's have further discussion.

I think we need both actually - in-house, internal team (not necessarily big - I think 3 people for start is an optimal size) + carefully selected agency, which would work with us only from time to time, when the time is right. This would give us a lot of flexibility and IMO would be much more efficient and cost-effective.
Why? Let me see what I would see (not saying it is a great and only possible solution - just my vision of the marketing strategy)

1. The internal team (I am assuming we are talking about the DCG team here) that would be a backbone of the marketing efforts. It should be relatively small because DCG is a software house and should not build a big marketing capacity. I think that an attempt to build a full-capacity marketing team internally would end up with lay-offs pretty quickly - it looks like the bear market is there and budgets will be shrinking. Therefore focus should be on effective and efficient solutions - marketing should be a mainly supporting function.
An internal team should create a constant flow of messages about Dash, create graphics, videos, comms, input for the agency, and whatever else is needed on a daily basis - deliver good performing content for masses, as you wrote :). But not focus on big campaigns - this is a different beast and I think externals could be better and more effective on that.

2. The external agency should be carefully selected (I know Leon recommended quite a good one), and educated. The relationship with them should be considered a long-term relationship. This should be definitely a crypto-oriented agency, with existing knowledge and expertise in the crypto industry. They should NOT work with us non-stop - only on demand. When should we use agencies then? Imho it should be done only in two cases:
- confirmed bull market on Bitcoin, when everyone is excited about crypto and it leads to quick wins and solid gains
- during the major releases (however, if a major release is expected during the bear market, these activities should be very limited because the bear market will kill any good news anyway)

I think we need to have realistic expectations and take the market situation into consideration VERY seriously.
When the market is in a downtrend, DCG and network should look for any possible way for savings - cost reductions, limiting headcount, looking for opportunities to save money, and doing only what is absolutely necessary, saving money for the future bull run. Even limiting development activities should be seriously considered. Support, maintenance, and building only quick, small features should be the main goals during the bear market. No extensive marketing is needed during the bear market on Bitcoin because it will be highly ineffective - no campaigns, no agency involvement. Only a constant flow of information about Dash and communication done by the internal team is what is needed during the difficult market situation.
Agency should be used as an additional super-weapon only when the time is right. This will not be cheap - as @GrandMasterDash mentioned - but we should plan it and collect money upfront, prepare materials, and use their expertise and channels (even if those are built on templates).

I would love to create kick-ass campaigns with agencies of course, but the budget is quite short for that needs. But if organics work properly, then it may open the door to funding for a perfect paid traffic plan.
Me too ;) - let's figure out how to do it.
 

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
3,320
1,399
1,183
What is the dark side actually?
In this instance it means less emphasis on compliance and more energy on doing all the things DCG was resistant against, for example, improved end user privacy (ZKPs etc). I mean to say, for the same reasons Chris Hough was hired; to stop repeating the mistakes that got us here, take a leap of faith, and do some things that your natural instincts are rejecting.

I realize Chris has subsequently left and I wonder how much of old DCG culture was to play in that. It may be too late for Chris but not for this reboot.

It's not to say that fresh ideas and actions will automatically work because surely there will be mistakes. But if someone keeps making mistakes and then goes and repeats the same actions that got them there... then the same mistakes will happen all over again.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kot and Dans

kot

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Mar 17, 2015
803
2,074
263
Thanks for the clarification @GrandMasterDash ,

My post had a slightly different goal. I did not have in mind changing one geeky technology to another geeky technology. This is exactly what we should NOT be doing anymore. And it doesn't matter if it is for dark markets or any other market.

The intention of my post was (very shortly): no more and more focus on technology, development/developers, and experiments with perfect decentralisation but focus on markets, products and users instead.
Software development and technology should be the tools to reach market demands and business goals - they should not be the goals themselves.
 

Marine

Moderator
Dash Core Group
Apr 26, 2022
34
97
18
33
@kot, thank you for your support, it means a lot to me! I’m really happy and proud to be part of the team behind Dash.

I believe we can do more for Dash, talk more and get more people involved.

Let me explain my point about agencies. OFC there are good and bad ones. But crypto is a quite specific industry, and classic marketing stuff may simply not work here. A particular expensive agency may have tons of successful case studies with big brands, but all them may mean nothing if they have no experience in crypto with its specific audience and behavior.

The previous fintech I worked at (not crypto) hired the best agency in our region for content and SEO stuff. These guys built their strategy only by using SEMrush's (marketing software for paid campaigns and organic promotion, yet another service I worked at before lol) algorithm analytics. The problem was that SEMrush and similar services just analyze keyword databases to suggest competitors to beat, but this information is not enough for building an actionable content strategy. Because one cannot be a competitor of Wikipedia, or Investopedia, if we’re talking about fintech. The guys from the agency didn’t care much about that and built content strategy based on that data which was completely wrong and led us nowhere.

And this is just one of such cases.

I believe there are many crypto-focused agencies, but it’s hard to tell how many scams there might be. I’m only saying that we gotta be super picky when it comes to working with an agency.

Regarding the internal team, you're absolutely right. I think I have a solution that might work for DCG. I wanted to tell about it a bit later (once there’s some proven track record at least), but since we’re talking about marketing changes right now I can’t help but tell you about DashWorks.

This is a DashIncubator fork we want to propose with the guys from DMH. Basically, DashWorks is a small team consisting of me, Doeke Koedijk, and Sam Kirby as mods. We aim to create and deliver valuable output for Dash. Anyone can join DashWorks and contribute to Dash for reasonable costs. DashWorks workflow is still under construction, but I think it can be a great solution for our further marketing efforts. DashWorks may put all organizations together and produce collective outputs.

IMO, we gotta focus on our strategy first, set up goals, spread roles, and see what tools we can use right now given short budget, market bloodbath, etc. Maybe it sounds too obvious, but that's just the way it is.

What do you think?
 
Last edited:

vazaki3

Active Member
Jul 1, 2019
628
299
133
34
apogee.dynu.net
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Software development and technology should be the tools to reach market demands and business goals - they should not be the goals themselves.
And how do you know the demands of the market ? Do you have any method that calculates these demands? Because many claim "these are the demands of the market!" and when you ask them "how do you know that?" they cannot explain ...... Please, stop the empty words and give us your calculations and your numbers...

You know what?...Not only you dont know the demands of the market, you dont even know the demands of the masternodes or the demands of the dash community! Because government questions remain very expensive, and nobody asks the masternodes or the dash community what they really want!

You have been a member of the DashCoreGroup during all these years, and we all know the results of DCG's leadership. So please be more humble next time, because you are part of the reasons Dash failed.

Your way of thinking is simply wrong. Α governance decision should precede any implementation proposal. Why a free lancer developer to spend his time investigating how to change the Dash code, if he is not sure that the masternodes want that? Thats why those kind of questions are tottaly needed to be answered by the masternodes. They are not implementation proposals, they are just governance questions, that will incentivize free lancer developers outside the core team to start searching implementation solutions, and then make their implementation proposals to the budget system that are compatible to the governance decisions.
The governance type questions will boost dash, they will free it from the salary paid developers (which tend to have a civil servant behavior). What is really at stake in this very vote, it is whether the free developers or the paid employees developers will lead dash's future. And I prefer the free market rather than the employees-servants.
I hope to have mass participation in this vote, because this will show that the masternodes operators (regardless whether they agree or not to the specific question) they understand the huge value that those governance-type questions have.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dans

Marine

Moderator
Dash Core Group
Apr 26, 2022
34
97
18
33
Because government questions remain very expensive, and nobody asks the masternodes or the dash community what they really want!
I do.
We're planning to run a series of talks to the community whether it is a discord chat, group call or anything else. If we want to make a powerful marketing shift, talking to the community is vital. I was just about to start with MNOs.