Dash vs IOTA

3dificio

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I'd like to talk a bit about IOTA vs Dash. Seems to me the IOTA system of sending transactions via tangle is superior to Dash, in that the transactions are free and with practically infinite scalability.
Because with IOTA the transactions are confirming each other, there is essentially no transaction ceiling.

While Dash is betting on sophisticated hardware in the future to handle all the transactions, it seems better not to need the specialized hardware in the first place. And no fees allows for extremely small transactions, which can tap in to a whole other market. Also this cuts out the need for miners - and the risk of mining centralization not to mention all the wasted electricity.

That being said, and the reason i'm still sticking with Dash, IOTA seems difficult to use. Still, so is Dash at the moment (From 95% of peoples point of view anyway), but Dash is going to be easy to use. Which, in my opinion, is one of the most important goals a cryptocurrency should reach for.

If there was a cryptocurrency, implementing a system like IOTA's tangle and also going for a Paypal like interface so you don't have to know whats going on behind the scenes, i would definitely move my investment to that crypto.

People care about ease of use, features and how cheap it is to use. A decentralized, completely free and easy to use system could be a combination of Dash and IOTA.

I'd like to hear why you guys think Dash PoW is superior to IOTA's tangle. Cryptocurrency is a fast-moving field, and in my opinion, just because PoW worked so great for bitcoin for many years, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things :)

Edit:
Just to be clear, as it stands now i'm all in on Dash. I think especially the governance system is such a huge advantage over any other cryptocurrency that there is no doubt in my mind which coin to believe in :) There are just some features of IOTA i think are essential to the Utopian decentralized, free to use, easy to use and non-corrupt money system we all dream of ;)
 
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demo

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I also have the feeling that IOTA is something amazing, but I had no time to search about it. Thanks for the info you provided to us.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Personally, I would like to see dash core give us a dual blockchain; a main chain (the current dash blockchain), and a sister chain that tries to mirror transactions for live testing. The sister chain could be a DAG derivative with sporks to help with fine tuning. I think it's doable, similar to tezos sandboxing.
 

3dificio

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@GrandMasterDash I thought a bit more about it yesterday. One of the big issues i see with IOTA is that all the coins have been created. The wealth, it seems, is very concentrated at a few addresses compared to other coins, like Dash. Some inflation is a good thing, especially if the coin is expected to keep the world economy going. People need to be incentivized to spend them :)

Would be amazing, as you say, to have a dual chain. But instead of the miners also confirming transactions, they would only generate coins. The other "tangle-like" chain, would handle all the transactions more efficiently (Including private transactions I've read). This could also split the mining reward, so we could have a governance system and a budget same way as Dash (An incredible advantage, no doubt). This would of course still mean we would spend electricity to mine, but then again, this does create a real, tangible investment behind a coin.

I don't know if any of this is possible, or even a good idea ;) Please let me know, interesting talk :)
 

GrandMasterDash

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@3dificio I was theorizing, I don't actually know, but on the face of it, it seems plausible to me. I suggested the sandboxing because the DAG is so unchartered compared to PoW.

For a while I've been trying to recover some iota that I lost during recent snapshots. The manner in which new iota is issued against old iota certainly makes it feel centralized.

I do think, whoever cracks machine-to-machine payments will also eventually take over high value person-to-person payments. But for me, as it is, I wouldn't store too much on iota.
 

3dificio

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I mean, surely, if people were losing their coins all the time due to updates, IOTA wouldn't be number 8 in marketcap? The prospect of someone being able to issue new IOTA's at will during updates is certainly a deal breaker for sure.

But yeah if coin creation could be handled by miners, separate from the DAG, that would solve that issue. Leaving coin creation to market competition also helps distribute wealth evenly (Well, more so than a small group of people controlling the supply anyway. Mining centralization will still happen). Would it be possible for Dash to implement something like this in the future?

Of course this would reduce the fees paid out to masternodes (Who'd have to vote), but surely they would be able to see the immense value of having unlimited scalability and free transactions. Plus they wouldn't have to buy expensive hardware to scale :)

There are probably, like most other things, a lot of issues with these theories. I sorry to say i have no idea whether something like this is even feasible :)
 

Antti Kaikkonen

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I'm not interested in IOTA for the same reason I'm not interested in Ripple: centralization. As far as I know the security of the tangle relies on a "coordinator" node controlled by the IOTA foundation. This is very similar to Ripple in which Ripple labs is the sole validator of transactions.

Disclaimer: I haven't done much research in IOTA or Ripple and the information might be incorrect.
 

3dificio

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@Antti Kaikkonen As i understand it the coordinator is temporary. It is being used only in the start, while the network is small and vulnerable to attack. But yeah i get what you mean. I'm just thinking, if the technology behind the tangle works - then it is by far a superior system to blockchain (Even though the people running it may be doing it wrong). If we implemented that system behind the scenes, with an easy to use interface in Dash, then we would have a perfect cryptocurrency.

People don't care whether they are using a blockchain or a tangle or, in most cases, a centralized service even. They care whether it is easy to use like visa, more features than visa (Can send money anywhere in the world within seconds) and cheaper than visa (Free). Otherwise they have no incentive to switch. Most people don't want to give up any of those 3 things just for the right to "be their own bank" :)

Ps. I've been trying to use IOTA's wallet but oh man it is horrible. No way they're getting anywhere with a wallet like this, no matter how good the technology is (Just from first impression, which is really, really important)
 

Antti Kaikkonen

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@Antti Kaikkonen As i understand it the coordinator is temporary. It is being used only in the start, while the network is small and vulnerable to attack. But yeah i get what you mean. I'm just thinking, if the technology behind the tangle works - then it is by far a superior system to blockchain (Even though the people running it may be doing it wrong). If we implemented that system behind the scenes, with an easy to use interface in Dash, then we would have a perfect cryptocurrency.

People don't care whether they are using a blockchain or a tangle or, in most cases, a centralized service even. They care whether it is easy to use like visa, more features than visa (Can send money anywhere in the world within seconds) and cheaper than visa (Free). Otherwise they have no incentive to switch. Most people don't want to give up any of those 3 things just for the right to "be their own bank" :)

Ps. I've been trying to use IOTA's wallet but oh man it is horrible. No way they're getting anywhere with a wallet like this, no matter how good the technology is (Just from first impression, which is really, really important)
The problem as far as I know is that an attacker would only need to control more than 1/3 of the hashing power consumed by the network which might be very little since laptops and even smartphones should be able to do this work in order to send transactions. And if the required amount of work was increased then it would be more expensive to send transactions and people would probably outsource the POW to miners.
 

3dificio

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I found this really good interview where the founder explains why that wouldn't be a problem. I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but it's really hard without a background in software ;) Here's the interview:

https://soundcloud.com/arthurfalls/ether-review-69-iota-the-post-blockchain-era

He says something about the network would "absorb" the extra hashing power, and the attacker would have to start fighting his own hashing power. Which would mean he has to buy exponentially more hashing power, just to reach some of the outer, lesser confirmed transactions.

All sounds fantasic, but as i said, i don't really have the expertise to review the code. It's really just words until enough people have convinced me ;)

Edit:
At 2.6 billion dollar marketcap, the incentive to scam IOTA is very real right now. I would imagine if it was really easy to double spend/spam the network it would have been done by now.
But then again the "coordinator" is still in control, so maybe that's the reason :)
 

Antti Kaikkonen

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I listened to the whole interview and it still didn't change my views on IOTA.

Around 31:30 is interesting.
First David Sønstebø is saying that devices using the asic would essentially have the same power consumption as devices not using it.
Then he is saying that it would still somehow be extremely difficult for an attacker to match the hashing power of the devices that consume virtually zero electricity doing proof of work.
After failing to defend his argument he starts talking about how the attacker couldn't connect to the nodes because IOTA has manual peer discovery.

But how do you prevent an attacker from connecting to nodes while at the same time allowing honest clients to connect? I googled up "IOTA peer discovery" and came up with this page which talks about centralized KYC measures etc..
 

3dificio

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I gotta admit, i'm on deep water here ;) Heh i'm somehow finding myself defending a cryptocurrency i started reading into yesterday.

If an attack on the network is as easy you state, why hasn't it been done yet? Also he said that even if the attack was successful, the attacker would only be able to disrupt a few "outer node" micro transactions - but i take it that argument only applies to IoT, where nearly every transaction is a small one.

Seems the post in the link you provided stated several options for a more usable IOTA platform without peer discovery. I think some easy to use centralized options are okay if they retain the features of a cryptocurrency, plus, and this is the most important one, that you have a choice of going decentralized.

In an ideal world decentralization and ease of use go hand in hand though. Go Dash! ;)

Edit: I also found this article, which seems to have a solution for the problem. But i gotta admit this is getting a bit to technical for me, though i am curious i need more time to wrap my head around this stuff :)
 

Koromoto

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People don't care whether they are using a blockchain or a tangle or, in most cases, a centralized service even. They care whether it is easy to use like visa, more features than visa (Can send money anywhere in the world within seconds) and cheaper than visa (Free). Otherwise they have no incentive to switch. Most people don't want to give up any of those 3 things just for the right to "be their own bank"
This is what I've been trying to say, I don't know why it's so hard for some people to accept reality. Mere mortals are afraid of technology and they seek refugee in simplicity.

I firmly believe IOTA and ADA will quintuplicate their price in the coming months regardless of their technical merits.
 
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3dificio

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I would say, right now IOTA's price is going up solely on their technical merits - or their promise of having them (Which seems to be mostly the case with Cardano).

Right now, IOTA seems difficult to use - I mean, man, have you tried their wallet? You have to choose a host from a list when you open the wallet. Most people with go: "What the fuck is a host?", "attach" your transaction to the tangle.. no, right now it's speculation from investors who've read the webpage and people who understand the technology.

The most important reason of all that i'm heavily invested in Dash, is that it seems to be the only team that understands that all this speculation won't last. That the end users are the most important part of this.

And the reason i started this thread, was not to pull Dash down - or support IOTA. I simply wanted us to take a serious look at our competition. I STRONGLY believe our ideology is the best. But i also believe there is no chance in hell we got the best method of getting there.

There are simply too many good ideas in the space, too many competing coins. Some of them will have a better way of sending private transactions, cheaper transactions (Clearly no fees is very popular) - Even some with a nicer GUI when evolution comes out.

With the treasury we have the opportunity to explore these ideas. We should not be afraid to change direction, if necessary. The most adaptable coin will win the race - and having a shit-ton of money every money to support that sure doesn't hurt.
 

Koromoto

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Don't get me wrong, I believe in DASH but unfortunately DASH doesn't believe in me. I like simplicity and instant transactions, I don't like volatility but the rest of the world is interested in making quick bucks and plenty of con artists trying to put their claws in the treasury for anybody to be interested in new ways to tackle world problems.

I went to read about IOTA and they have a lot of interesting stuff going on. I like Fast Channels, the Tangle, no fees even though I prefer low fees in the order of 1% per transaction just way lower than Visa or MC and that money would go to all those who help keep the network running. I like masternodes in DASH, that's the best feature they have right now and the only competitive advantage. I don't like miners and high energy consumption, in the long run they are a rope around their own neck and I believe in five years there won't be a single crypto using miners the way they're used today, treehuggers will win and the world will be a better place.

Same as you noticed, I don't like "attach" "reattach" and stuff like that WTF? I tried downloading the wallet and just read in Reddit some guy was phishing secret keys WTF? Is that how they handle security? Still I'll keep an eye on them since they provide all I need for my world tokens to work, perhaps next year. Right now will keep testing the vanity registry on Ethereum and deploy a test token just to see how things work out. This stuff is really amazing.
 

demo

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My concern about IOTA is centralization and security. How they resolve this issue?
I mean, you cannot have a wallet in javascript! You need a compiled language.
 

Hossman

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So, I got into Crypto while learning more about monetary theory, The mining process, and absolutely predictable supply of bitcoin was an eye-opener, and the appeal. Pre-mined coins worry me functioning as a store of value, and are a deal breaker. This is especially the case if most of the IOTA are in a few hands, and those hands are thinking, "Why sell, it's going up leaps and bounds every day". Tangle technology is exciting, (assuming they can get it to work), and it might make it amazing as a means of transactions. But, it still lacks as a store of value.

If it does take-hold you will need something like Monero, Bitcoin, or Dash to act as a store of value (price tied to the expense of mining a new money, just like it was with the gold standard). But, then, if one of those can be as cheap (or materially indifferent from as cheap, couple of pennies per transaction), why mess around with two currencies? Also, multiple currencies don't work in practice. If I'm saving for a house that I'm going to buy in Dash, but I'm an Uber driver, and people are paying for trips in IOTA, now I'm subject to exchange rate risk, when I convert my transaction currency to store of value currency. Yuck!

IOTA was not really marketed as a reserve currency. Instead, they want the micro-transactions. And, I think there is a place for that. Give me a music streaming app that will allow me to play any song ever recorded ad free, tied to an IOTA wallet, and I just pay $0.001 per play directly to the artist as royalties. Transition to proton mail, or similar encrypted email, ad-free, data mining free, NSA free, and I just pay $0.002 postage on emails to maintain the system, and discourage spam, I'm on board.

Also, if this happens, it helps the adoption of crypto, because people get more comfortable with the idea of money that lives on the internet, and is not tied to a government. This reminds me of the early days of snowboarding. Originally, skiers hated them, seeing it as competition against skiing. As it matured, the industries started borrowing technology and best practices from each other, In the long run, I think snowboarding has made skiing more popular.

For the time being, if I have money to buy crypto, I want something that is not pre-mined. Lets be honest, I'm not transacting much in crypto, and am looking for a store of value, as this is the biggest problem with fiat.
 
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DirtyExpert

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I know nothing about coding or algorithms but after Dash I would say Telegraph is very interesting. Without talking to my trusted advisors I wouldn't put any money in it because I think it is oversold already but it is very interesting
 

Antti Kaikkonen

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I know nothing about coding or algorithms but after Dash I would say Telegraph is very interesting. Without talking to my trusted advisors I wouldn't put any money in it because I think it is oversold already but it is very interesting
How does telegraph have anything to do with this thread?
 

DirtyExpert

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They are ready to launch... After an astounding 2B pre launch sale. I was just mentioning that their blockchain architecture is supposed to solve all the shortcomings you were talking about. Supposedly their new network and the blockchain that runs it is a game changer.