Dash needs to implement Shadowcash technology and truly be anonymous.

Do you think Dash fungibility / anonymity is a critical feature?


  • Total voters
    45

xdashguy

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Feb 9, 2016
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Agree that mixing isnt great but adopting shadow cash sounds like relaunching the whole project.
Not really. It would actually be sticking to the goals and values of what the project started with. The shadowcash code is already written. It is not like current devs need to spend a lot of time of new code and inventing the concept. The hard work was already done by the Shadowcash team.
 

ec1warc1

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Jul 26, 2016
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1) Yes, though it is rare. The only advantage would be if irrefutable proof that a payment was sent was needed from one identifiable address to another (think of a contract that specified this). That is the only instance I can think of and it would be an edge case. It is rare enough that I personally think removing non-private transactions (not even making it an option) is best.
(in response to the question "Is there any advantage to offering standard, non-private transactions?")
Considering dash's alliance with Coinfirm, see @amanda_b_johnson 's latest video, I think the fact that we offer both open transactions and private transactions suits dash well. Here is the video:

comments?
 

GrandMasterDash

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80%+ on this poll say dash should truly be anonymous, which goes against this Coinfirm partnership. It's also a significant development that not a single MNO voted for. We should de-fund the core team and stop this ridiculous work... they're working on stuff that most users don't want when they should be working on more important things, like re-enforcing dash's fungibility.. completely opposite now to how dash started out.
 

ec1warc1

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We should de-fund the core team and stop this ridiculous work
I would not agree with this statement. I see the Coinfirm partnership as a move in the right direction. I am not a core team member. However, your post does bring up some interesting concerns. Was the partnership voted on? Should it have been voted on? Should all partnerships, even those that do not require funding, be voted on?
completely opposite now to how dash started out.
Dash will evolve over the years. I don't expect it to remain perfectly true to its original ideas. Bitcoin can stay stuck in the mud and we will see if that is a strength or a weakness in the coming years. I suppose it will be a weakness as Dash continues to improve.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Dash will evolve over the years. I don't expect it to remain perfectly true to its original ideas. Bitcoin can stay stuck in the mud and we will see if that is a strength or a weakness in the coming years. I suppose it will be a weakness as Dash continues to improve.
I do not agree with this statement. It's like saying, "US dollars will evolve over the years"... yeah, got that right, that's exactly why we're here, because the rules of the game kept changing... off the gold standard and subject to continuous manipulation / devaluation. The so called "limited supply" of crypto does not add value, more that the constant changing of properties can also devalue... geeks are the new bankers, changing the rules.

It's exactly the same with Ethereum et al... making material changes yet retaining the name and userbase. Such material changes should become the fork. Instead, we (the users) are in a situation where we must move to a fork to retain the original properties of the crypto. That, imo, is backwards and it gives little credibility to crypto as a whole.
 

ec1warc1

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I do not agree with this statement. It's like saying, "US dollars will evolve over the years"... yeah, got that right
So, you are against the new release of "Dash Evolution" because it is a change, an addition of features?
Wasn't the ability to vote an added feature? Are you against voting?
 

GrandMasterDash

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So, you are against the new release of "Dash Evolution" because it is a change, an addition of features?
Wasn't the ability to vote an added feature? Are you against voting?
Indeed, the voting system wasn't robust enough to protect against rogue actors infiltrating dash and carrying out work without approval e.g. Coinfirm integration.

AFAIK, in it's present form, Evolution will not be forced upon people and competing wallets will be possible. But yes, and with voting, I am against significant protocol changes that choose to go against end users wishes. End users have certain, not unreasonable, expectations; for example, that the gold they hold doesn't suddenly and magically transform into silver.
 

halso

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Apr 27, 2016
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I downloaded the ShadowCash client last night. It's pretty impressive, and it is how i imagine Evo is going to look. It also has a placeholder for mkt apps.

Their website also has a road map which is very detailed, with clear deliverables and associated timelines. Something we dont do very well.

Their shadow send solution also looks superior.

But I still think Dash has a better chance of broader scale adoption. Assuming we can get privacy solution working properly.
 
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rustycase

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IMO, security, speed and efficiency, with a user friendly GUI, should be among the critical factors of this service project.
Accessible fiat gateways NOT dependent upon 'other' coins is also of great importance.

IF privacy is the primary goal, to obfuscate the top Snoops on the planet, (who DO have the largest funding), ALL other aspects of acceptance will need to be set aside.
Most likely, permanently... "They" are quite aggressive.

When and if extreme mixing is requested by a user, it should remain clearly identified as an app separate from basic wallet functions.

1% of a market is too small, to set as a goal.

Yes, I fully realize this project originated in DarkCoin venue... time to change focus to mass acceptance of personal banking and P2P.

( ...and this is rather poorly written and presented. Sry. )
rc
 
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GrandMasterDash

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I should probably link to my other post but just to be sure the message is read and not missed....

Coinfirm have a two-way relationship with Bisnode, whom in turn have customers like Vodafone and Forbo Siegling where credit checks and risk assessments are made on customers. This means big data is being used to analyse and track customers and payments.

https://www.bisnode.com/international/news-and-inspiration/cases/vodafone--db-hungary/

https://www.bisnode.com/international/news-and-inspiration/cases/forbo--hoppenstedt-360/

Please also take note of Evan Duffield's words from previous interviews...

https://medium.com/@simon/the-bright-side-of-darkcoin-a923facddc3c#.w1boqumbz

"I believe the central problem with Bitcoin is that the public ledger, although a remarkable accomplishment, also allows a gross invasion of personal privacy by permanently listing all transactions the users have ever done publicly. I would imagine many groups are working to tie the addresses used to real identities and then following the money around to see what is happening with it.

There was also a lot of talk recently about tainting coins to check and see if they’re “clean” (note: he means colored coins). I believe that all coins should be considered equal and you shouldn’t mess with the fungibility of the coins themselves."

https://www.coingecko.com/buzz/interview-evan-duffield-dash

"How do you make a stable environment for it without losing fungibility of the individual coins? How do they expose users to privacy-invasive situations and things like that. I was watching and waiting for the Bitcoin team to do something about the fungibility issue but it never happened.
....
With Bitcoin, every transaction is traceable back to the coinbase transaction. What that means is that the coinbase is where the actual coins were created - that's when the miner mined them originally and then they start this path through the network from user to user. You can follow this procession and if at any point a user is identified as owning a specific address it suddenly means that anything they do after that is traceable. If you can identify one of the other addresses after it, you know that they did business with that person. The closer that those two transactions are, the more likely this happened.

Eventually a lot of these addresses and users are going to be identified. There will be companies selling these data, which is an invasion of privacy and no one wants a system that is susceptible to those types of attacks especially with a global ledger on the internet."

What this means is, while some people here like to talk about a single-minded goal of wide spread adoption, dash will end up with zero reasons why anyone should ditch their fiat debit cards. For the average user, dash will end up being integrated and dependent on fiat with all the traceability of a regular bank account. With no unique or compelling reason for the end users, and with less fungibility than cash - wait, I thought dash was Digital Cash???? - then why why why???
 
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ec1warc1

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Compare Dash to sending an international bank wire. To wire money from USA to Colombia, something I have done many times, first, I have to go to my branch office in the USA and be there between 8:30AM and 11:00am. They stop doing international wires at 12 or 1. So the paperwork has to be submitted by 11:00. Anway, after paying $55 for the privilege of sending my own money to my other account in Colombia... I fly home.

I usually get to Colombia on a Saturday, just the way I travel. I go to the bank on Monday or Tuesday. After waiting in line for 30 minutes, I notify them that I sent myself a wire. They check the system,and they cannot find it, and that took another 15 minutes. So, I go back the next day, then they find it after another 45 minute wait. There is a bunch of paper work that has to be filled out. It does not matter that I earned it legally. Anything over $2000 and you have to prove your are not a criminal. The entire process in Colombia takes 2 to 3 visits to the bank and at least 2 phone calls. It is a stressful pain in the ass.

In Latin America, the currencies lose value just sitting there. It is a typical problem in almost every country, some worse than others. Not only that, if a Bank fails, good luck getting your savings out of it. "Bail in"? More like "adios dinero!" - and yes, I have seen people lined up around the block in Argentina hoping to get something out of their accounts (1988). Not a problem with Dash.

Yes privacy is important. Dash does offer privacy, even with traceable transactions. Anyone can mix, anyone can spread it around to new addresses. Anyone can secure their own money. The tools are there. Dash may not be "the most private", but it is not the least, and its other features make it far closer to cash than any other cryptocoin.

I would love to see Dash adopted in Latin America because the banking system is a convoluted mess. Privacy is important. But to me, just being able to USE IT because it is ACCEPTED is far more important than absolute, guaranteed privacy for every transaction.
 

Naruto

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Dec 26, 2014
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Does partner with confirm make DASH transaction have less privacy. No
Because If U use PrivateSend , which is still there , you will still have the privacy.
The problem here is the merchants (e.g. bullion dealer) who have to follow strict rules about AML/KYC regulation. If the merchants don't have the information about the transaction, they will not accept it.
You have the right to use PrivateSend but the merchants have the right to decide whether they should accept those transaction or not. It is fair.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Does partner with confirm make DASH transaction have less privacy. No
Because If U use PrivateSend , which is still there , you will still have the privacy.
The problem here is the merchants (e.g. bullion dealer) who have to follow strict rules about AML/KYC regulation. If the merchants don't have the information about the transaction, they will not accept it.
You have the right to use PrivateSend but the merchants have the right to decide whether they should accept those transaction or not. It is fair.
Doesn't work that way. You will pay your bullion dealer with dash and they will claim it's recent history shows mixing and, therefore, unreliable. They won't give you the money back because it's now a matter for the police (or other agencies) to investigate. Is this different to paying them using other methods? - no, they will still keep the money and refuse service. So why did you use "digital cash" when you could of used a debit card funded via bitcoin?

AML / KYC doesn't just authorise a single transaction; it connects dots and triggers events that will later be commoditised and used as evidence against you. Yes, exactly like a regular bank account and nothing like cash.

Instead of people attacking my words, perhaps someone should be brave enough to question Evan's words about fungibility.

Why are some people here so hell bent on defending an external party's AML / KYC business? If you're so enamoured of such behaviour, just use Ripple or such like.
 

xdashguy

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Feb 9, 2016
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Does partner with confirm make DASH transaction have less privacy. No
Because If U use PrivateSend , which is still there , you will still have the privacy.
The problem here is the merchants (e.g. bullion dealer) who have to follow strict rules about AML/KYC regulation. If the merchants don't have the information about the transaction, they will not accept it.
You have the right to use PrivateSend but the merchants have the right to decide whether they should accept those transaction or not. It is fair.
As GrandMasterDash pointed out, fungibliity does not work that way. Once you can have coins that are linked with real IDs and ones that are unlinked, then it creates an attack vector. Government or even people voluntarily can start to discriminate some coins versus others. In other words, it creates two currencies. It is like trying to give merchants a ripped bill. Some will accept it and some will not.

Creating a fungible currency means that every dollar bill is perfect. None are ripped. They are all indistinguishable from others. So, a currency does not really work when its units can be so easily discriminated.
 

xdashguy

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I think a lot of people in this thread are missing an important concept. Dash only has valid if it offers more value to users than alternatives. We need to have an honest discussion about what value Dash offers. Because without privacy I do not see that it offers much value. Let's do a run down:

  1. Dash for remittance? Nope. Dash does not offer good liquidity or many service providers, so it is fails to offer any remittance advantage over bitcoin
  2. Protection for consumers? Nope, it offers worse protection for consumers than credit cards
  3. Protection of merchant? It is the same as bitcoin in that charges cannot be reversed, so no additional value proposition compared to bitcoin
  4. Ability to perform instant transactions? It does offer more than bitcoin, but no more than physical cash, credit cards, or other cryptos like ethereum or monero that are near instant
  5. Privacy? It offers slightly more privacy than bitcoin assuming all stars are aligned, but far less than Monero, Shadowcash, etc. Considering it has lower liquidity than monero why not just use Monero?
So, you can see, currently dash has a value problem. It is not offering consumers any value that alternatives are not. Dash's only real neat feature that maybe, maybe, may offer some long-term value is the governance model. However, as far as what it offers as a currency, it is not much.

A privacy / fungibility solution is essential. It will make Dash have an advantage over credit cards for consumers (privacy), advantage in remittance over bitcoin (privacy) and advantage in the privacy market over monero (Dash uses bitcoin toolchain which means its easier to use as there is more network effect) and shadowcash (more liquidity).

The current solution does not work. It is slow as hell. It is costly. It is not on by default. And it relies on trust of master nodes operators. Lastly, it is not user friendly.

I hate to be a bear, but Dash needs to wakeup. The one Dash advantage could be privacy solution built-in. Once bitcoin gets side chains working, then it will suck dash dry due to its dominance in liquidity. What will be the point of using Dash? People will be faced with a truly private transaction via Bitcoin which is more used and has more liquidity or a sort-of private transaction on Dash. Why choose Dash at that time? Private transactions will be coming to bitcoin in a year and due to bitcoins higher adoption, higher use, and higher liquidity it will eat Dash's lunch if Dash does not create a real private solution built into the core protocol.
 
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qwizzie

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I'm starting to think OP is perhaps in the wrong forum, OP should be looking for the Monero forum and post in there.
By the way OP draws so many wrong conclusions about the values of Dash, that he is starting to sound like a certain USA presidential candidate. Unfortunetely i dont have the time or energy to create a website to
rebuff them one by one.



 
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xdashguy

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I'm starting to think OP is perhaps in the wrong forum, OP should be looking for the Monero forum and post in there.
By the way OP draws so many wrong conclusions about the values of Dash, that he is starting to sound like a certain USA presidential candidate. Unfortunetely i dont have the time or energy to create a website to
rebuff them one by one.
Not at all. I have been clear with the benefits of Dash: 1) Governance model 2) Based on bitcoin. As I have stated many times, monero is not built on bitcoin base. As a result, adopting it requries complete retooling and it does not benefit from bitcoin development. That is a big drawback.

Why is it that anyone who wants to see Dash improve is essentially called a troll or crazy?
 

bertlebbert

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Why is it that anyone who wants to see Dash improve is essentially called a troll or crazy?
In the recent past, there have been some issues (legitimate or otherwise) which were beaten to death - over and over, in a troll-like manner.

Though this thread raises some valid points, they tend to point toward potentially uncomfortable conclusions. Some members of the community, being substantially invested - both financially and emotionally - understandably become defensive.

Trouble is, the nature of this defensiveness invites 'echo-chamber' and 'cult' labels, and further divides the community.
 

demo

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In the recent past, there have been some issues (legitimate or otherwise) which were beaten to death - over and over, in a troll-like manner.
This is a problem.
Those issues should have been voted, instead of been beat to death over and over again in a troll-like manner.

STOP TALKING, START VOTING!
 
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GrandMasterDash

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This is a problem.
Those issues should have been voted, instead of been beat to death over and over again in a troll-like manner.

STOP TALKING, START VOTING!
Find me a core member that is willing and able to get a Shadowcash-like technology into dash and I'll vote yes and I'll also make a good financial donation
 

halso

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Find me a core member that is willing and able to get a Shadowcash-like technology into dash and I'll vote yes and I'll also make a good financial donation
I second that.

Dash has the governance and instant send advantage.

But shadowcash privacy looks superior. The Umbra client is also very sexy.

Come on core team! Please share ur thoughts!
 
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noobtrader

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This is a problem.
Those issues should have been voted, instead of been beat to death over and over again in a troll-like manner.

STOP TALKING, START VOTING!
This time I actually agree with demo, we should stop trolling over and over and over and over....
 

demo

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Find me a core member that is willing and able to get a Shadowcash-like technology into dash and I'll vote yes and I'll also make a good financial donation
Why ask and beg the core members to implement shadowcast.
You have better propose this into the budget.
Or even better offer a boutny to whoever can implement such a thing.
And then you should force the core team to merge the shadowcash branch to the main version of dash.
 
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demo

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I second that.

Dash has the governance and instant send advantage.

But shadowcash privacy looks superior. The Umbra client is also very sexy.

Come on core team! Please share ur thoughts!
I am telling you the same thing that I told to @GrandMasterDash.

If you really want shadowcast, add a proposal to the budget and allocate some dash coins to whoever will be able to implement it. Or ask into the budget to allocate a special bounty, to whoever developer is able to implement such a thing. And then PAY the core member to test the shadowcash implementation of the independant developer. And if the core team is unable to discover bugs then the core team should be payed to merge the shadowcast software branch into the main version of the dash software.

It is that simple, so stop asking from God or forom the core teams to do things, and motivate yourself in order to convince all the rest to vote for such a proposal in the budget.

Have a look of what the motivation to convince others can do. Lamassu project, lost half of their supporters (from 1932 net votes it is now 944). It is good to motivate yourself to stop the bad budget proposals (this is the trolling art), but it is much better and much more positive to motivate yourself to create good budget proposals (this is the art of creation).
 
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demo

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Until now, we are 12 people strongly motivated in favor of the anonymity,
<vote history>
Do you think Dash fungibility / anonymity is a critical feature?
  1. Yes 12 vote(s) 80.0%
  2. No 3 vote(s) 20.0%
</vote history>

I voted yes but it is not a pure yes for both anonymity and fungibility. I am more in favor of anonymity rather than fungibility.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Why ask and beg the core members to implement shadowcast.
You have better propose this into the budget.
Or even better offer a boutny to whoever can implement such a thing.
And then you should force the core team to merge the shadowcash branch to the main version of dash.
a) We need someone(s) that can actually do the job
b) A rough guesstimate for the budget and timeline
c) A successful vote
d) An agreement from the core team that they will actually implement it

It's (d) that concerns me. They could simply refuse even if the vote is successful. So, at some level it needs their approval. There are many things they don't ask our approval for, but still, hopefully they will agree if there is a successful vote.

With this in mind, once implemented, I would donate some money to the developer(s) in addition to the budget itself... call it a bonus, a thank you.
 

demo

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a) We need someone(s) that can actually do the job
b) A rough guesstimate for the budget and timeline
c) A successful vote
d) An agreement from the core team that they will actually implement it

It's (d) that concerns me. They could simply refuse even if the vote is successful. So, at some level it needs their approval. There are many things they don't ask our approval for, but still, hopefully they will agree if there is a successful vote.

With this in mind, once implemented, I would donate some money to the developer(s) in addition to the budget itself... call it a bonus, a thank you.
The amount of bounty defined in the budget should be voted up (or down) (YES, ONCE AGAIN, YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO VOTE WITH NUMBERS !!! :mad::p:cool:) so that the developers should have an idea of how much money they can earn. Otherwise nobody will start coding, without knowing approximately how much money their effort will be paid.
 
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demo

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With this in mind, once implemented, I would donate some money to the developer(s) in addition to the budget itself... call it a bonus, a thank you.
And how is it possible to define a bounty proposal into the budget? How can this bounty become dynamic and change in time? How can you define a vote type where a Masternode vote means that he gives X dash coins as a bounty to the person that is able to implement something? The bounty reward system (althought absolutely usefull) is impossible to be defined in the current budget system that the core team implemented.

The budget way of voting only yes/no and prohibitting voting with numbers is tottaly stupid! So if you want a bounty enabled budget system, please support vote with numbers. I have said this so many times, I have point to so many cases where vote with numbers is usefull (I lost the count on how many the cases are) but you are still so stupids that you still dont even cast the third "yes" vote , in order for me to start coding it.

It is so vast the amount of stupidity of this community, it is so vast the amount of skimpiness (you dont even cast a third "yes" vote that costs you nothing!!!), that no serious person will ever invest on you, stupid retarded dash users and whales!!!
 
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