Dash Nation Consensus Discussion

tungfa

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Let me give you one example so you know where I'm coming from.

@GreyGhost and the Dash World proposal did a report on dash.org SEO. The Dash World proposal passed by the DGBB. Now, @GreyGhost is requesting access to the official website to perform his recommendations. He is not core team, should he be making changes to the official website? I say yes, because the Masternodes voted the proposal in. Now if you believe in the "core team" and community, you would say no because he is not core team. Ambiguous. See what I'm getting at? This is just one potentially distracting example going forward. That's why we need clearly defined roles in Dash Nation.
hey Tao
I know you mean well here
but this is obvious much more complicated than that

grey ghost and the main webpage
should he get a log in ? I do not think so as this is the "security bed " for the 40 Mill market cap (downloads), there are people in place to deal with that

that has nothing to do with him or community or core , it is just general security measures we need to have in place !

I heard there was some "incident " (I would call it hissy fit) over on the other slack .
old people are leaving new people are coming , that is a community for you.

this is coming down to the same old discussion
Decentralized everything , or not
there is obviously more to it than just throwing keywords around (Decentralized is just so cool these days) but for a project as this to work , Evan getting the support he needs to concentrate on his tasks , there is a team in place . it seems people think we are here for this or that , in my opinion we the team are only here to back up Evan !
there is so much "little" stuff to do on a daily bases , maintain this , update that , test those ,.... that is where the team comes in , Evan collected a bunch of people he trusts , can rely on and needs as support .... and that is it !
did Evan and this team deliver over the last 2,5 years ?
I believe they did as we are still here and are doing better and better (Marketcap)
I am not sure what is going on on that other slack , but do not believe the hype and do not get carried away as others already did .
there is no devide here , there is a devide with a selected few (initiated by them) but that is totally normal in a project as this .
a team of 6-8 will never satisfy a community of 1000 (or more) , there will always be different opinions and that is good and makes us all grow !
no need to put this on a peddle stool , it is just normal project internal issues (as they all have)
 

TheDashGuy

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I'm not going to quote Mr. @tungfa and justify the shit show he just asked for but I do have a question...

How does one "get into the core team" if Evan already "collected the ones he trusts?"

Just curious.
 

tungfa

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I'm not going to quote Mr. @tungfa and justify the shit show he just asked for but I do have a question...

How does one "get into the core team" if Evan already "collected the ones he trusts?"

Just curious.
(and there comes that passive aggression again)

obviously there is always space for more in the team

rushing in here for a month screaming and shouting at everybody and everything / "I leave if you do not ..." (and then disconnect all pages)
never worked
I have seen it before and again and again

earn trust
make your rounds
give it time
take the emotions to the side
have skills
be a team player
.....
just the usual stuff as for any project / company / community /.....
 

TroyDASH

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I heard there was some "incident " (I would call it hissy fit) over on the other slack .
old people are leaving new people are coming , that is a community for you.
I don't think we should just chalk it up to "it happens". The relationship between the DASH community and the project leaders, or at least, project representatives, needs to be actively maintained or monitored, in my opinion. And in DASH we have the additional element where we have not only community members but also Masternode operators who I believe even the core developers have compared to a board of directors. At this stage of project development we are starting to be in a gray area of how the project relationships are being governed.


there is obviously more to it than just throwing keywords around (Decentralized is just so cool these days) but for a project as this to work , Evan getting the support he needs to concentrate on his tasks , there is a team in place . it seems people think we are here for this or that , in my opinion we the team are only here to back up Evan !
there is so much "little" stuff to do on a daily bases , maintain this , update that , test those ,.... that is where the team comes in , Evan collected a bunch of people he trusts , can rely on and needs as support .... and that is it !
did Evan and this team deliver over the last 2,5 years ?
I believe they did as we are still here and are doing better and better (Marketcap)
No one is questioning Evan's successful record. Part of the question though is whether this is still essentially a one-man show, even considering the huge team of developers, and the masternode owners, and the community. Some roles obviously have been delegated out. Sometimes feedback is requested, requests going out and requests coming in to the developers. How are decisions made? I really think we should continue talking about this in order to avoid the same kinds of pitfalls that have been plaguing large projects, organizations and companies for a long time.

In the end we can never make everyone happy. But we can write down the nature of how things are so that people don't have a certain expectation and then feel like they are getting the shaft when it isn't met, or when the other party didn't even realize what the expectation was.
 

tungfa

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I don't think we should just chalk it up to "it happens". The relationship between the DASH community and the project leaders, or at least, project representatives, needs to be actively maintained or monitored, in my opinion. And in DASH we have the additional element where we have not only community members but also Masternode operators who I believe even the core developers have compared to a board of directors. At this stage of project development we are starting to be in a gray area of how the project relationships are being governed.




No one is questioning Evan's successful record. Part of the question though is whether this is still essentially a one-man show, even considering the huge team of developers, and the masternode owners, and the community. Some roles obviously have been delegated out. Sometimes feedback is requested, requests going out and requests coming in to the developers. How are decisions made? I really think we should continue talking about this in order to avoid the same kinds of pitfalls that have been plaguing large projects, organizations and companies for a long time.

In the end we can never make everyone happy. But we can write down the nature of how things are so that people don't have a certain expectation and then feel like they are getting the shaft when it isn't met, or when the other party didn't even realize what the expectation was.

no problem at all

"No one is questioning Evan's successful record."
there was always a team in place for and with Evan , sure Evan is the man there is no doubt , but the team around him should get as much respect (or at least part of it) as thy are cranking out as much code (or whatever) as he does , this is a team effort and nobody could pull this off by himself

"getting the shaft"
nobody did !? who are u referring to

edit
there are some insults been thrown around on the other slack against the team which are just not acceptable ! hype and negativity is one thing , but this seems to have hit a new high of madness
 
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TaoOfSatoshi

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no problem at all

"No one is questioning Evan's successful record."
there was always a team in place for and with Evan , sure Evan is the man there is no doubt , but the team around him should get as much respect (or at least part of it) as thy are cranking out as much code (or whatever) as he does , this is a team effort and nobody could pull this off by himself

"getting the shaft"
nobody did !? who are u referring to

edit
there are some insults been thrown around on the other slack against the team which are just not acceptable ! hype and negativity is one thing , but this seems to have hit a new high of madness
Yeah, this thread is not meant to be adversarial at all. On the contrary, as a community builder my interest is bringing people together, and when I see people getting upset and quitting the team for reasons that could've been prevented, then I make it my goal to improve the system so it doesn't happen again.

What is the role of:

The Core team? (Let's clarify it)

The Masternode network? (Let's clarify it)

Professional contributors? (Let's clarify it)

The community? (Let's clarify it)

This DAO concept needs a lot of work to get right, and communication and guidance is key to all of this. I would like to avoid these kinds of issues in the future, and a simple clarification to all involved would go a long way.
 

yidakee

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Yeah, this thread is not meant to be adversarial at all. On the contrary, as a community builder my interest is bringing people together, and when I see people getting upset and quitting the team for reasons that could've been prevented, then I make it my goal to improve the system so it doesn't happen again.

What is the role of:

The Core team? (Let's clarify it)
The Core Team has no objectively defined hard-coded definition. It originally was just a bunch of trusted community members that given their track record were invited to form a team, to structure a work group to develop ideas, projects and code. Some came, others went. It's always been public, and here is the list - https://www.dash.org/team/

To me, Core just means "inner" - nothing fancy or superiority or special. We're just very in tune with what the Founder has in mind, where he wants to go, what he wants to achieve. We share core (pun intended) philosophical principals regarding life, ethics, privacy and what a crypto-currency should do for us all, and we collectively work on numerous areas to get it done.

IMHO - this list could use an update, some guys to be included in there. Not naming who obviously, that's not for me to decide. Also it's about time we start classifying more roles. I agree on that.

Our role is to put in motion Evan's vision. We do what he has no time to do. We free the load off his mind so it's able to do it's best. To create and code.
In practice how this is done, depends on what tasks we have at hands.

The Masternode network? (Let's clarify it)
Curate the allocation of funds for proposed projects. Can also be used to gauge sentiment, but is not vinculative.

Professional contributors? (Let's clarify it)
Contractors: Professionals who get payed directly to perform a job or task.

The community? (Let's clarify it)
Anyone and everyone who participates in the communal exchange of ideas, debates, chats, philosophies, projects, hanging out, creating inter-relationships, generally co-exisiting, arguing. In very broad terms, all who in some way, shape or form, share a collective vision and are drawn together because they believe in what they are participating in.

This DAO concept needs a lot of work to get right, and communication and guidance is key to all of this. I would like to avoid these kinds of issues in the future, and a simple clarification to all involved would go a long way.
Agreed. But the notion of DAO is all too young for hard-coded definitions. Plus, we're pioneers at it. We can have our version while others have theirs. And even with ours, due to the dynamic nature of technology and the explosive untapped possibilities of blockchain, a definition today can easily change tomorrow.

The glue that holds this together is our strong belief in Evan's vision and capacity to deliver.
 
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kot

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Calm down - for "externals" we are all the same - geeks and nerds who try to save the world and believe in some strange utopia (so far from perfection ;))
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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Calm down - for "externals" we are all the same - geeks and nerds who try to save the world and believe in some strange utopia (so far from perfection ;))
Yidakee reached out to me today to let me know that the core team is receptive to my "Dash Nation" one team request, and we are working on a way to implement it more formally. I will provide more details when I get them. It's a great idea to bring us all together, though, and I'm excited about it.
 
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boblq

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Yidakee reached out to me today to let me know that the core team is receptive to my "Dash Nation" one team request, and we are working on a way to implement it more formally. I will provide more details when I get them. It's a great idea to bring us all together, though, and I'm excited about it.
Lurking and trying to gain a better understanding of both the DASH community and technology. I would like to thank you @yidakee for a discussion remarkable for both it's civility and clarity.

This thread bodes well for the DASH Team, both "core" and "extended.
 

kot

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@TaoOfSatoshi , This is also to respond to this post: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-world-update-4-articles.8741/#post-92746

People are coming and going - this is freedom. People are making decisions based on different factors. No written consensus will change it.
We need to respect decisions of people and not pack them into a form of rules and regulations (however you call them). We are not a commercial company to have this type of discipline. I really appreciate my freedom to decide who am I to this project and what I want to do.

Your concept of Dash Nation is nice but I guess you are making a fundamentally wrong assumption that every member of Dash community is automatically a member of conceptual organization called Dash Nation (with all implications of this fact). Don't get me wrong - I like this concept in it's original form. But in this thread it is becoming a little bit artificial.
Dash is simply an open-source project. As many on Earth.
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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@TaoOfSatoshi , This is also to respond to this post: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-world-update-4-articles.8741/#post-92746

People are coming and going - this is freedom. People are making decisions based on different factors. No written consensus will change it.
We need to respect decisions of people and not pack them into a form of rules and regulations (however you call them). We are not a commercial company to have this type of discipline. I really appreciate my freedom to decide who am I to this project and what I want to do.

Your concept of Dash Nation is nice but I guess you are making a fundamentally wrong assumption that every member of Dash community is automatically a member of conceptual organization called Dash Nation (with all implications of this fact). Don't get me wrong - I like this concept in it's original form. But in this thread it is becoming a little bit artificial.
Dash is simply an open-source project. As many on Earth.
Kot, I'm not arguing any of your points. I understand the dynamic of an open-source project, and I know you can't force people to do things. Sometimes, though, you have to see the point of view of others who are on the other side of the core team/community setup.

I see it in the other Slack, and through posts on BCT and here. The current path is breeding division, and as a community builder, this is the last thing I want to see.

If we are to succeed long term, we must decide who we are.

Are we a DAO? If so, how do we decide the direction the project takes? Does everyone just do their own thing, as you suggest, or do we find a way to co-ordinate all of our efforts (core-team and community) through frequently used communication channels and governance systems like the MN network?

I have seen numerous posts from community members with legitimate concerns about the direction of a particular aspect of the project, that were never responded to. The posters may be ready to contribute more ideas, but since no one responds (cares), we may lose an engaged individual. This is already starting to happen, as we've seen. As a community, we must do better. How do we do better? That is the purpose of this thread.

I say try to find a way to work as one team, and let the Masternodes vote on major changes. I'm sure there is more, but that is a start.

We see what this path of division has done to Bitcoin, we mustn't let it happen to us.
 
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@TaoOfSatoshi I really appreciate my freedom to decide who am I to this project and what I want to do.
This!

100% agreement, same for me.
Ditto.

I really like Tao because he does not ask for a permission and is acting freely. I do appreciate boundless energy and optimism he has been steadily displaying in order to support Dash Project for ages and kudos to it. Having said that, that endless "shove down our collective throats Dash Nation this or Dash Nation that" approach that seems to want to childishly impose that every singular, individual action must be as a part of his imaginary Dash Nation gets a tad tiring after a while.
 

kot

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I see your point @TaoOfSatoshi and you are right to some extend. In a perfect world that might work.
However our reality is not perfect and limited by resources. We have very limited resources (budget, manpower, time, tools) to do the work.
I know there are many ideas for improvements, new concepts etc. and there are many people writing about them. It is easy to throw things on the table and expect that someone else will do the work (and if not then I am leaving this hopeless community). There is a limited number of people who do things. We simply need more people interested in doing and capable to deliver (not necessarily constitution describing who is who and what should others do).
Core team is a group of people who tries to lead by example - by creating ideas, realizing them and delivering results (not expecting that someone else will do them for us). Is everything we do perfect? No, it is not. But we are getting better and better.
We also listen carefully to the community voice. However, not every single idea and concept can be implemented by the core team - because of the limited resources. People should do the same if they share passion for Dash . Fortunately there are more and more people who do things. @TaoOfSatoshi or @GreyGhost are good examples :) (and I am pretty sure that by doing your projects you see that it is not as easy as one can imagine)

My private consensus is really simple: think-plan-deliver-improve. And it works for me :)
 
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TaoOfSatoshi

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This!



Ditto.

I really like Tao because he does not ask for a permission and is acting freely. I do appreciate boundless energy and optimism he has been steadily displaying in order to support Dash Project for ages and kudos to it. Having said that, that endless "shove down our collective throats Dash Nation this or Dash Nation that" approach that seems to want to childishly impose that every singular, individual action must be as a part of his imaginary Dash Nation gets a tad tiring after a while.
I will say it again for clarification purposes: I don't want everyone to call the Dash community "Dash Nation". That's what I call it, and that's what I've used to invite thousands to join us. This conversation has nothing to do with what to call ourselves, for the love of Pete! :confused:
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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I see your point @TaoOfSatoshi and you are right to some extend. In a perfect world that might work.
However our reality is not perfect and limited by resources. We have very limited resources (budget, manpower, time, tools) to do the work.
I know there are many ideas of improvements, new concepts etc. and there are many people writing about them. It is easy to throw things on the table and expect that someone else will do the work (and if not then I am leaving this hopeless community). There is a limited number of people who do things. We simply need more people interested in doing and capable to deliver (not necessarily constitution describing who is who and what should others do).
Core team is a group of people who tries to lead by example - by creating ideas, realizing them and delivering results (not expecting that someone else will do them for us). Is everything we do perfect? No, it is not. But we are getting better and better.
We also listen carefully to the community voice. However, not every single idea and concept can be implemented by the core team - because of the limited resources. People should do the same if they share passion for Dash . Fortunately there are more and more people who do things. @TaoOfSatoshi or @GreyGhost are good examples :) (and I am pretty sure that by doing your projects you see that is not really as simple as one can imagine)

My private consensus is really simple: think-plan-deliver-improve. And it works for me :)
Trust me, I agree about the people who contribute and who don't. I see that all the time also.

The people who left the project don't fall into that category, though.

@Solarminer is a good example of what I'm talking about. When Evan came up with the Sentinel idea, he began working on it right away, without talking to many (if any, I don't know) people about it. Toknormal and Solarminer both expressed reservations about this system. Now, I'm not saying they're right, I'm just stating facts. These concerns were posted in plain sight in BCT and were never addressed. Also, just facts.

Keep in mind, this is only a discussion, I'm not trying to impose my will or anything, I just think we need to answer this question:

Based on that problem in our community, how should we proceed:

The way it happened, with Evan making the decision to implement this new idea without consulting the community and not replying to community input?

Or, should Evan have announced his brilliant idea to the community, faced a discussion over pros and cons, and put it to a MN vote?

How do we want to proceed? Are we a DAO with decentralized governance, or are we a small group that does what it wants and the community is just a sometimes listened to supporting cast?

This is just one example, but I would love to hear some opinions. This thread could become very constructive.
 
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tungfa

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Trust me, I agree about the people who contribute and who don't. I see that all the time also.

The people who left the project don't fall into that category, though.

@Solarminer is a good example of what I'm talking about. When Evan came up with the Sentinel idea, he began working on it right away, without talking to many (if any, I don't know) people about it. Toknormal and Solarminer both expressed reservations about this system. Now, I'm not saying they're right, I'm just stating facts. These concerns were posted in plain sight in BCT and were never addressed. Also, just facts.

Keep in mind, this is only a discussion, I'm not trying to impose my will or anything, I just think we need to answer this question:

Based on that problem in our community, how should we proceed:

The way it happened, with Evan making the decision to implement this new idea without consulting the community and not replying to community input?

Or, should Evan have announced his brilliant idea to the community, faced a discussion over pros and cons, and put it to a MN vote?

How do we want to proceed? Are we a DAO with decentralized governance, or are we a small group that does what it wants and the community is just a sometimes listened to supporting cast?

This is just one example, but I would love to hear some opinions. This thread could become very constructive.
i think you are just overseen the big problem of quantity of reading content !
good or bad on multiple outlets ! how will evan find the time to read all pages, find content 'appropriate ' to him, + comment ! + keep his usual work up !
this has nothing to do with ignoring comments, it comes down to the question of quantity and time !
sure a certain percentage will slip through the cracks !
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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i think you are just overseen the big problem of quantity of reading content !
good or bad on multiple outlets ! how will evan find the time to read all pages, find content 'appropriate ' to him, + comment ! + keep his usual work up !
this has nothing to do with ignoring comments, it comes down to the question of quantity and time !
sure a certain percentage will slip through the cracks !
True, but that's irrelevant to my question.
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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i did attempt to answer your question obviously
i commented on your SM example
;)
"Based on that problem in our community, how should we proceed:

The way it happened, with Evan making the decision to implement this new idea without consulting the community and not replying to community input?

Or, should Evan have announced his brilliant idea to the community, faced a discussion over pros and cons, and put it to a MN vote?

How do we want to proceed? Are we a DAO with decentralized governance, or are we a small group that does what it wants and the community is just a sometimes listened to supporting cast?"

That's the meat and potatoes of the question.
 

kot

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Personally I have so much trust in what Evan does that I would let him do the things and implement the solution first. If we have it on the testnet, then we can talk and work on the improvements and changes. Endless, theoretical talk on the forum is not very effective and goes to nowhere usually. Having PoC (testnet) gives much more options to discuss.

Another thing is to let someone else deciding whether Evan can/should implement something or not - it is fundamental misunderstanding in my opinion.
 
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tungfa

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"Based on that problem in our community, how should we proceed:

The way it happened, with Evan making the decision to implement this new idea without consulting the community and not replying to community input?

Or, should Evan have announced his brilliant idea to the community, faced a discussion over pros and cons, and put it to a MN vote?

How do we want to proceed? Are we a DAO with decentralized governance, or are we a small group that does what it wants and the community is just a sometimes listened to supporting cast?"

That's the meat and potatoes of the question.
sure, this could have done in a different way
but you have to understand how evan work (and that should be respected)
head over heals in code and comes eventually out on the other side when done
sure for us 'none coders' he should've done this and that and why did he not ask us ....
well, different working styles ,.....Example: you paint a picture you will not stop after the outlines and ask others what they thing, as they will not see understand the whole picture.
you Finnish it to present it as a Finnish product and how it fits into the whole mural you are working on , and most others do not even see/understand the whole mural !
(Sentinel idea)
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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Personally I have so much trust in what Evan does that I would let him do the things and implement the solution first. If we have it on the testnet, then we can talk and work on the improvements and changes. Endless, theoretical talk on the forum is not very effective and goes to nowhere usually.
Another thing to someone else deciding whether Evan can/should implement something or not - it is fundamental misunderstanding in my opinion.
Thank you! So then we are not a DAO with decentralized governance. We therefore have no right to say we are, do we?

You see where I'm going with this? It's a deep discussion, way deeper than what to call ourselves...;)
 

flare

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The posters may be ready to contribute more ideas, but since no one responds (cares), we may lose an engaged individual.
We have very limited resources (budget, manpower, time, tools) to do the work.
I know there are many ideas for improvements, new concepts etc. and there are many people writing about them.
@TaoOfSatoshi Three words: Just. Do. It.

I am part of Dash since almost two years now. One thing that i was asking me since ever: Why do people spend endless hours with writing ideas in forums ("contributing ideas") instead of doing things?

These concerns were posted in plain sight in BCT and were never addressed
Seriously: BCT lost its status as collaboration platform long ago. Me for myself even had the IP of the forum on my firewall blocklist for several months - since i couldn't stand the nonsense which gets posted there and drove my bloodpressure up. Additionally i voted for closing the ANN thread

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/locked-dash-announcements-thread-on-btc.6492/#post-71894

If someone wants to address concerns to Evan and notes that his forum posts are not responded to: [email protected] is the way to go. Or [email protected] or [email protected]. Don't expect Evan or other members of the core team to spend 2 hours each day to read forum posts. Our resources are scarce anyway...

Are we a DAO with decentralized governance, or are we a small group that does what it wants and the community is just a sometimes listened to supporting cast?
Dash is beginning to build a DAO, we are not there yet. In the future I'd like to see several independent teams - just like "core team" - doing what they've laid out in their proposal. The budgeting code gets revamped in 12.1 (aka sentinel) to facilitate this.
 

kot

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Thank you! So then we are not a DAO with decentralized governance. We therefore have no right to say we are, do we?

You see where I'm going with this? It's a deep discussion, way deeper than what to call ourselves...;)
Not really - you are making wrong assumption. Please read carefully what I wrote. I am simply placing the discussion/decision part in more reasonable time-frame (when there is actually something to discuss).
Endless theoretical discussions would kill the progress - there is no chance to have everyone thinking the same and agree on the same matters.
 
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TroyDASH

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Just want to point out, if members of the community disagree with a directional aspect of the project, eg. sees a problem with a new functionality that Evan puts in, there is no amount of "work" that they can do. You don't have to code anything because the version you think is better, already exists. Not every contribution has to be about fixing bugs. I am getting the message that core team is encouraging people to "actually do" work if they want anything to happen but this isn't adding up for me.
 

flare

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You don't have to code anything because the version you think is better, already exists.
I think your premise is not correct: There is nothing in existence. The new features are neither rolled out to mainnet nor testnet. Currently it's all on Evans/Udjins local source code repo, anyone could implement his own (better?) solution. As soon as Evan commits his work to github it's free for review, discussion and changes - the same would apply to any other implementation.

Not every contribution has to be about fixing bugs.
Who was talking about fixing bugs? Core team is currently working on 17 different projects (https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/march-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.8687) - pick one.

I am getting the message that core team is encouraging people to "actually do" work if they want anything to happen but this isn't adding up for me.
I don't get the point tbh.