Dash Lite Fork

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Geert

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All this bullshit with Andy Freer and his agents trying to take control of the project has got me thinking. Maybe a simplified version of Dash should be spun off that does not include the "developer risk," the coinjoin stigma, and the nauseating governance/treasury system. What I am proposing is a stripped-down version of Dash that has the following features ONLY:

- Chainlocks.
- Enhanced InstantSend

There is no governance, no treasury and no mixing of coins. It would be a purely volunteer project ideally led by someone like Codablock.
 

GrandMasterDash

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I think it's called Lightening Network, available on both bitcoin and litecoin.
 
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Geert

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I think it's called Lightening Network, available on both bitcoin and litecoin.
What I am proposing has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lightening [sic] Network. It is a fork-- a new coin, and not a layer that settles on an existing blockchain.
 

GrandMasterDash

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What I am proposing has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lightening [sic] Network. It is a fork-- a new coin, and not a layer that settles on an existing blockchain.
Understood, but what you are describing sounds like bitcoin / litecoin with Lightening i.e. no treasury, no protocol-level coin mixing, and instant transactions.

You say coinjoin has a stigma attached but from a technical point of view it's very primitive compared to zero-knowledge proofs. I suggest the negative stigma is more the other way, that some people will attempt to limit the application of maths to a specific group of people only.

You're probably aware, the recent "clean block" produced by Marathon was subsequently tainted via permission-less donations. Are you sure that this un-fungibility is what you want from dash?
 
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Geert

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Are you sure that this un-fungibility is what you want from dash?
This is a fork. It in no way prevents Dash from continuing on its current trajectory, It's the version of Dash for the normies who are currently HODLing things like Doge and Litecoin.
 

qwizzie

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I find it interesting that one that receives so very very little support from masternode operators on his comments on the Protocol Developer Incentives Fund proposal (https://www.dashcentral.org/p/protocol-developer-incentives-fund), resorts to making threads like this.
If OP feel so strongly about this all, i would urge OP to just sell and find himself another project.

Due to Dash Governance model and the support DCG has among masternode operators, there is just little to no chance of such a hostile hard fork ever getting implemented or getting any support whatsoever from DCG, members of DCG or from the Dash community.

This threads reeks of a complete disconnect from reality.
Dash does not do hostile hard forks which causes its community to get divided and fractured, which is precisely what OP is proposing here.
 
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Geert

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The fork would give every Dash HODLer free coins, and since there is no treasury to pay developers there won't be any new features.

You are FUDDING my idea. There is no threat.
 
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vampyren

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I'm not a fan of forks as it leads to confusion for new people and creates a huge drama. Not good for either of the projects. But i do agree that there is to much drama about privacy, salary, budget etc etc. Also accountability and deliveries.
I'm in no position to say much about why we are at this point as i'm fairly new in Dash when it comes to governance but i do see some problem here.
For one we are not very decentralized when decisions are taken without community voice. Like PrivateSend was changed without consensus.
Tons of time put into making videos, talk etc etc on the topic with zero result.
Much of the time could be (should be) spent on what devs are doing and when we see the new "stuff". Still we dont know this. why is there no transparency?
Same with how much we pay to devs. All of this should be transparent. Otherwise we are no DAO in my opinion and no better then any other company that hides behind fancy words.
I hope we can solve the issues without any forking but it takes two to tangle.
 

Geert

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I would rather fork the coin than convert Dash to a developer-run project with Andy Freer as alpha geek.

pony.png
 

vampyren

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I would rather fork the coin than convert Dash to a developer-run project with Andy Freer as alpha geek.

View attachment 10639
Sorry dont get the reference to fluffy?

And to be frank on one side the power of opensource and decentralization is the freedom that anyone can do whatever they like. If you feel you can do a better job i dont think anyone can or should stop you either. I personally dont like to see the projects i like in this situation but anyone has the right to fork and make a better job if they can do it.
Without that we would not see new innovation in the space. But before that happens i would suggest we all try to solve it if possible (i'm guessing you already tried that but again i'm new here)
 

Geert

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This is not about me @vampyren. I'm not forking anything. The way it would work is DCG would fire any developers who don't want to report to the CTO and lock them out of the github. At that point, Andy and the renegade developers would fork the coin if they had the cojones.
 

AgnewPickens

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LOL i just found out about this: https://raptoreum.com/
another shitcoin stealing Dash+ETH tech :D
Seem to be a fork of Dash.

Stealing tech in an open source system is an oxymoron. I happen to know the guy behind this, and he is helping me with
my Dash website. I don't know if the coin has a chance in the market, but forking Dash does not make it stealing.
 
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vampyren

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Stealing tech in an open source system is an oxymoron. I happen to know the guy behind this, and he is helping me with
my Dash website. I don't know if the coin has a chance in the market, but forking Dash does not make it stealing.
True that you dont actually "steal" when its open source so thats my bad using the wrong wording. But what i dont like is that these projects make it sound as if they are inventing a new revolutionary new thing when in fact they are not.
And as you say i doubt any of these new projects will have a real shot unless they actually add something really innovative beside offering a "new" shiny coin.
Anyhow i guess anyone can give it a shot and see where it leads. For me after so many years in crypto i'm getting a bit more of a maximalist. Not jut for Bitcoin but the old projects that been around for many years. I see so many new coin/project come and go that its crazy.
For me the big big value right now is DeFi ....

ps. was also a bit annoyed by the Raptoreum "EUM" naming, as if anyone would take this as a etherEUM alternative :)
 
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Gass

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gabrielsalinas.codes
All this bullshit with Andy Freer and his agents trying to take control of the project has got me thinking. Maybe a simplified version of Dash should be spun off that does not include the "developer risk," the coinjoin stigma, and the nauseating governance/treasury system. What I am proposing is a stripped-down version of Dash that has the following features ONLY:

- Chainlocks.
- Enhanced InstantSend

There is no governance, no treasury and no mixing of coins. It would be a purely volunteer project ideally led by someone like Codablock.
lol good luck with that.

I love your following by the way.. Is mind blowing..
 

Geert

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Our journey to the promised land of Evo adoption is not assured. We have to avoid the following pitfalls:

1. Evo is never released.

This could happen if some people here succeed in destroying DCG and we no longer have a competent CTO.

2. Evo is released but it's lame.

If contact list privacy is not implemented, for example, I would not use Evo nor would I recommend it to anyone.

3. Evo is released, and not lame, but it can't scale.

Pasta recently admitted that IS can only handle eighteen transactions per second, so this is a real concern.

4. Evo is released, is not lame, can scale, but it's too late.

When central bank digital currencies are rolled out, TPTB may simply ban competing, unauthorized digital currencies. This is not as hard as you might think. They can declare that possession, issuance, mining, trading and transferring crypto-assets is illegal. The Indian government has proposed just such a bill this year. Google and Apple would then remove all unauthorized crypto apps from Android and iOS devices.

You might say that crypto is too popular to ban. Alcoholic beverages were pretty popular as well in America in 1920.

* * *

Forking the coin as I proposed is not such a bad idea. A different and maybe more valuable fork idea would be as follows:

- Allow LLMQs to be block producers and do away with POW.
- Deprecate IS since LLMQs are not picking and choosing txes, but using a known algo to assemble blocks instead.
- Implement LLMQ-based blockchain pruning to maintain a small blockchain.
- No mixing, no treasury, no governance, no Evo (sorry grandma).
 
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Geert

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And in summary...

Let's face it. The DAO has become infested with self-serving mediocrities and outright con artists. And now Andy Freer has enlisted these bottom-feeders on a scorched-earth campaign to "decentralize" Dash (i.e., dismantle DCG and take control of core dev). The reason this is even possible is because of the nerd-herd's naivete. It takes months and months for the DAO to realize that certain people and their initiatives are of no value, counter productive, or, in the case of the Incubator, catastrophic. I've spoken out against Kuva, DashCrypto, DashTaxi, DashForce, and DashRetail. Now I have to boss-battle the mother of all bad ideas -- Andy and the Incubator. It's getting old.

If DCG cannot maintain control of core dev, I would say it's time for the best and brightest to spin-off a DAO-free version of Dash.
 

vazaki3

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And in summary...

Let's face it. The DAO has become infested with self-serving mediocrities and outright con artists. And now Andy Freer has enlisted these bottom-feeders on a scorched-earth campaign to "decentralize" Dash (i.e., dismantle DCG and take control of core dev). The reason this is even possible is because of the nerd-herd's naivete. It takes months and months for the DAO to realize that certain people and their initiatives are of no value, counter productive, or, in the case of the Incubator, catastrophic. I've spoken out against Kuva, DashCrypto, DashTaxi, DashForce, and DashRetail. Now I have to boss-battle the mother of all bad ideas -- Andy and the Incubator. It's getting old.

If DCG cannot maintain control of core dev, I would say it's time for the best and brightest to spin-off a DAO-free version of Dash.

If there is no Dash DAO, who will decide about Dash?
Shall we put our trust to a single person, that will decide on our behalf?
Never...
No matter how difficult is to built a proper and decent DAO, I will never surrender and accept that Dash's governance and voting rights should belong to a single person or to a few persons.
I am a voter delegate, and I will firmly keep this right until the masternode who trusts me decides to remove that right from me.
A DAO-free Dash fork is out of my scope. I am here because of the DAO.
According mnowatch.org, we are approximately 156 persons with voting rights (plus the crowdnodes).
The Dash electorate should become wider, not smaller.
 
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Geert

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The codebase is far enough along to launch a new version of Dash in a new direction. The key was to get LLMQ working. We don't need the dopey DAO and we don't need the asinine "Dash Community."
 

Geert

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Let me put this in a kinder way. It's in the interest of the MNOs to be gifted an alternate version of Dash over which they have no control.
 

vazaki3

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I repeat the question, because you seem deaf.

Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
Who will make governance decisions in this new Dash Lite fork?
 

Geert

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Some foundational assumptions we've inherited from Evan have turned out to be false. Forking is the only way forward. We don't have time to convince the DAO of what needs to be done. The DAO is like a battleship that cannot be turned around quickly. What are these false assumptions?

1. Coinjoin is a viable privacy mechanism.

Wrong. Your mixed coins are liable to be frozen or rejected by exchanges and other institutions. see https://sethsimmons.me/posts/fungibility-graveyard/

2. People will value extreme "ease of use" in the crypto space.

Wrong. People want asset appreciation.

3. TPTB will allow a decentralized cryptocurrency to become adopted as a viable option for everyday payments.

LOL.
 

GrandMasterDash

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1. The same people that reject mixed coins are the same people that reject all privacy coins. In their view it's liability either way. Bitcoin is the exception because it reached escape velocity a long time ago. I can't help you resolve other people's hypocrisy.

2. Asset appreciation and ease of use aren't mutually exclusive. Dash's store of value is arguably better than bitcoin as it provides better utility with a lower max supply. Now go and do coin mixing on bitcoin and let me know how much it costs you.

3. TPTB don't have a choice. They can make things difficult - with severe side-effects - but they can't shut it down. Permissionless payments trumps privacy, it says "even if you can track me, you can't stop me".
 

vazaki3

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The group that forked the coin would make all the decisions. Your only decision is to buy their coin or not.
So the Founders of the Dash lite coin will take all the future decisions, and for ever. And any new people that arrive after the short period of time of the initial fork, will become the slaves of the founders for ever.

This is your plan?
Do you think this plan has a future?
Do you assume that future generations are and will remain mentally retarded for ever?
 
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Geert

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1. The same people that reject mixed coins are the same people that reject all privacy coins. In their view it's liability either way. Bitcoin is the exception because it reached escape velocity a long time ago. I can't help you resolve other people's hypocrisy.
My point is that CoinJoin is a dead end. It's a dodo bird. The CoinJoin tab on Dash QT should include a warning that mixing your coins could lead to them being frozen or rejected by institutions.

2. Asset appreciation and ease of use aren't mutually exclusive...
Asset appreciation is about excitement. No one is excited about what Dash is working on except for the diehard community members that we all know and love/hate. Evo took too long. It was a beautiful dream, but IMHO it won't be fully functional before TPTB pull the plug on all of crypto.

3. TPTB don't have a choice. They can make things difficult - with severe side-effects - but they can't shut it down...
You don't know TPTB very well. IMHO they are using this crypto mania to further their goal of destroying all private wealth. When enough people have bought enough crypto, they will destroy it all.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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So basically you took every fact put in front of you and disregarded it.

1. Dash's dodo is cheaper than bitcoin's dodo.

2. There are plenty of people excited about dash: https://terminal.bytetree.com/dash

3. If TPBT are so powerful, how come dash is still standing? You declare that dash's survival is at their mercy?

You sound exactly like the bitcoin obituaries. Bitcoin survived and so does dash. With every block it is proven to be increasingly true,
 
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Geert

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3. If TPBT are so powerful, how come dash is still standing? You declare that dash's survival is at their mercy?
You sound exactly like the bitcoin obituaries. Bitcoin survived and so does dash. With ever block it is proven to be increasingly true,
You're exhibiting what's called "normalcy bias." see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias

I was willing to take a chance on Dash because of RT's leadership. RT is not just brilliant, he's disciplined and honest -- a good person. If Andy Freer and his Trojan horse Incubator take control of the project, the whole equation changes. I am asking for a fork because there is valuable technology here and it should not go down with the ship. We need a lifeboat.
 
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