DASH: Identity Problem (?)

GreyGhost

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(added a question mark in the title to better reflect the spirit of the thread)

It all started a long long time ago but was finally conceived like this. I sent a message to Fernando:
@fernando: don't get me started or I'll go there this moment and start a thread DASH: Identity Problem ;)
To which he replied with:
@greyghost: that one would be fun! I would not able to participate in the next few hours because work of the paying-the-bills type requires my attention, but that could be to dashtalk what our thread there is to bitcointalk, the longest and craziest one by far :)
So here we are. Since I've created the Dash World: Evolution in Marketing and its key element the Micro-economy of Dash proposal I've heard a ton of opinions. Let me briefly state why that lead me to the conclusion that Dash has an Identity Problem:

"Dash is not ready," was one of the common arguments. Well, I see several clearly defined "identifiers" presented in my proposal as Dash being:
++ "an exciting, permissionless investment opportunity" via its Masternodes. So I wonder, is it or is it not?
++ "An ideal digital cash for the emerging P2P decentralized economy." I ask myself and all of us, the same, Is it or is it not? (and yes, it needs to be perfected, as much as anything else in this world)
++ "An enabler of our right to privacy, via Privacy Protect." (a.k.a. DarkSend)

In the spirit of the proposal (listening and collaborating with the community) instead of sharing my opinion is Dash ready or not I will quote itscrazybro and his words over at the Dash Whale:

"I think the timing of this is no where near to early, it is almost too late. Marketing is a hype game, look at Kim Dotcom with his Meganet project. He doesn't keep it secret until its released, he throws out hints and sneak peaks while it is in development to create hype and conversation. Another example would be Slock.it, they have over 3000 members in their slack channel and they haven't even released a product yet.

There is also Ethereum, they created huge amounts of hype before their release. This gave them a huge user base and in turn helped with getting their product out faster. Hype brings supporters, and some supporters have technical abilities that help the project grow.So although I agree with you that we are not ready for mainstream use, we are ready to tell people that "we are not ready for mainstream but will be soon
".

BUT -- do not think this is a thread about Dash World. It is not as it has its own thread. This is a thread about DASH "Identity Problem". Do we have one? Are we, like Fernando said some people think, "a tyranny with a central committee," or a truly decentralized entity aiming for greatness?

Do we live in a bubble? If someone would ask us, OK guys if:
-- Ethereum is a Decentralized App Network, a "World Computer" that can't be switched off;
-- Maid Safe Coin creates a "New Decentralized Internet;"
-- IOTA "removes need for Blockchain" and
-- Slock.it "builds the future infrastructure of the collaborative economy," etc., tell me what the Dash is / what it does?

What would be our answer? "Dash is not ready?"
 
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tungfa

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sorry but
- you are referring to your budget proposal , but then this is not about it ?
well obviously it is (cross posting /promoting ?)
- if you quote people multiple times (might be out of content) please tag them at least so they know they being quoted
fernando
- identity crises ? where ? we are still on track as always with Dash as currency !

I do not see where this is going ?
 
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David

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I don't know about an identity crisis, but I do agree with your comments about it NOT being too early to market.

Dash is not ready? Dash will never be ready. It will never be complete. Right now we're working in parallel on Evolution and governance (budget/12.1). After Evolution and governance is "done," there will be something else just as urgent to do. And then something else. Unlike Bitcoin, we're actually developing continually and I don't think anybody has any plans to stop (like Bitcoin did).

Dash is not ready? Dash is already better than Bitcoin. I'd say that's pretty ready. Show me one area...just ONE...in which Dash is inferior to Bitcoin or doesn't do everything Bitcoin does? The *only* areas I can think of where Bitcoin is further along than us are a) PR / marketing / name recognition, and b) network effects. The only way to catch Bitcoin in those two areas is to do "a)" ourselves which will in turn bring "b)."

We're not ready yet for mainstream users? Cool--so get the word out among crypto nerds to start with. Bitcoin isn't nearly ready yet for mainstream users either. Bitcoin is a community of crypto nerds with almost no "ordinary people." But Bitcoin is worth $6.5 billion. Stealing just half a percent of their marketcap would nearly double our own. Then once we're "ready" for mainstream adoption, start targeting mainstream media. Ethereum isn't even remotely ready for mainstream adoption, but they're now in the New York Times, Fortune, Business Insider, and who knows what other publications.

We need marketing and PR. I couldn't agree more. I frankly don't care who does it or what company they use (assuming they are reputable). It just needs to be done!
 

jpr

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If we keep hiding this project from the mainstream, someone with tons of dollars will simply fork the shit out of dash and hype it all the way with PR, marketing and whatever that shit is called and succeed. Do you guys think the mainstream will give a fuck that Dash was first?
 

Equilibrium

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No identity crisis here!
I think that everyone who has been paying attention, knows that Dash aiming to be better bitcoin or a better decentralized currency based on bitcoin.
And so far Dash is succeeding. Success comes to those who work hard!
 

alex-ru

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We can't promote Dash as easy end-user product yet, but we can promote it as:
1. Investment opportunity of "The perfect Digital Cash" project (thanks to Decentralized governance of "shareholders").
2. Payment option for advanced users (thanks to InstantX).
3. Privacy option for users who value anonymity (thanks to DarkSend).

IMO we have to allocate resources to the promotion as:
1. 70%
2. 15%
3. 15%

With serious investors and with Dash price around 100 USD/DASH it'll be much easier to attract best programmers and improve product further...
 
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yidakee

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If we keep hiding this project from the mainstream, someone with tons of dollars will simply fork the shit out of dash and hype it all the way with PR, marketing and whatever that shit is called and succeed. Do you guys think the mainstream will give a fuck that Dash was first?
If they can fork Evan and all the devs that follow him, I would invest in that :cool:

Dash is "not ready" to take eon the world like we want to. Yes, the tech works, 99.9% flawlessly - but then money is involved you can't have sub-100% functioning systems.

Identity crisis? hell no. We know exactly where we are and where we want to go. We're kicking everyone's butt solving structural problems of crypto in a majestically decentralised way.

And Evo...

We just don't have crazy money being dropped. And quite frankly, thank goodness. I'm not in any particular hurry to see us in the billion dollar market just yet.

.
 
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TroyDASH

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Yes we have a identity problem but I wouldn't describe it as a crisis. In the most general sense, a key debate is what is the nature of the services that we want tier-2 to provide? And there is the key difference deciding between investing in marketing versus investing in innovation.
 
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jpr

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If they can fork Evan and all the devs that follow him, I would invest in that :cool:

Dash is "not ready" to take eon the world like we want to. Yes, the tech works, 99.9% flawlessly - but then money is involved you can't have sub-100% functioning systems.

Identity crisis? hell no. We know exactly where we are and where we want to go. We're kicking everyone's butt solving structural problems of crypto in a majestically decentralised way.

And Evo...

We just don't have crazy money being dropped. And quite frankly, thank goodness. I'm not in any particular hurry to see us in the billion dollar market just yet.

.
I know what you mean, but big money can buy 10 developers like Evan. What then?
I think we should promote the product we are aiming to have in the future, even we don't have it just yet.
 

yidakee

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I know what you mean, but big money can buy 10 developers like Evan. What then?
I think we should promote the product we are aiming to have in the future, even we don't have it just yet.
Ah, yeah, see what you mean. But then it wouldn't really be decentralised development by contribution and merit. But hired payroll. Also, if price shoots too high (through coin acquisition as direct investment) then the number of MN rise would halt. Not that that there are few, but a few thousand more would only be beneficial.

And direct investment into pockets would be too much of a conflict of interests in my book.

Obviously, I do want to see us rise, hell I was quite vocal about doing PR. But identity crisis? No not a chance. We, above the vast VAST majority, have a clear roadmap and a vision, the means and the talent to pull it off. Of course a price rise would create a more liquid opportunity to hire more talent to speed up things - I do get your point.

.
 
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alex-ru

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I know what you mean, but big money can buy 10 developers like Evan. What then?
Personally for me it is - the most probable risk about Dash project. If we can reduce this risk by turning the network effect to our benefit - it will make the project several times less risky so many times more attractive for investors.
 

timeless

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We need to market ourselves constantly so we attract the people and things we need in every fase. At he moment that are more early adopters and developers for Dash itself and the infrastructure around Dash. And all the mainstream people we reach who are not ready for Dash yet will hopefully recognise the name later on when Dash is ready for mainstream. Marketing is constantly sowing little seads you can harvest later on.

You can't expect to finish your product 100%, do your marketing and everybody will start to use it and we win. That's not how it works.

If I'm a developer right know getting interested in crypto currency I will look for opportunities in Bitcoin and Etherium not because they are ready for mainstream but because everybody is talking about them.
 
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yidakee

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We need to market ourselves constantly so we attract the people and things we need in every fase. At he moment that are more early adopters and developers for Dash itself and the infrastructure around Dash. And all the mainstream people we reach who are not ready for Dash yet will hopefully recognise the name later on when Dash is ready for mainstream. Marketing is constantly sowing little seads you can harvest later on.

You can't expect to finish your product 100%, do your marketing and everybody will start to use it and we win. That's not how it works.

If I'm a developer right know getting interested in crypto currency I will look for opportunities in Bitcoin and Etherium not because they are ready for mainstream but because everybody is talking about them.
That is exactly the point. Bitcoin is at a core stale-mate, Ethereum is way way way too advanced to have real world implications for at least 2 generations. Smart contracts and derivates sure are the future, as are self-driving cars and individual personal transport drones. So Bitcoin is legacy, Ethereum is a mega-bubble that may not pop, but it is way too advanced for society in the forseable future.

Dash is right up there as a true real life-penetrating technology. We are focusing on exactly that. Not only solving crypto-problems, but solving "real life" and societal problems. At a tech standpoint we only have one chance to succeed. So we need a super-robust infrastructure and code.

That is why I much prefer a slow and steady rise with tremendous advancements anyway, than super-investments that puts us in a high pedestal but then crumble as sub-par. That would invite others to fork us and improve. Spreadcoin tried and burned. In the meantime, extremely talented guys recognised why Dash is better, and jumped in to join the dev team.

They are talking about Ethereum now because of it's ridiculous price rise and investment hype. Not because it is actually make the world better.

.
 
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David

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If I'm a developer right know getting interested in crypto currency I will look for opportunities in Bitcoin and Etherium not because they are ready for mainstream but because everybody is talking about them.
This is an excellent point that I think gets to the crux of the issue. I'm not necessarily looking for major price appreciation right now (I'm happy with the little run we've had over the last six months!), nor do I expect people to suddenly abandon Bitcoin and start using us. My number one goal is to increase our name recognition. Let people know who we are, what we do, and what we are working on. Then if there is a talented developer looking for a project to work on, he/she may find us. Or a talented anybody--there's lots of roles that can be filled!
 
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timeless

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That is exactly the point. Bitcoin is at a core stale-mate, Ethereum is way way way too advanced to have real world implications for at least 2 generations. Smart contracts and derivates sure are the future, as are self-driving cars and individual personal transport drones. So Bitcoin is legacy, Ethereum is a mega-bubble that may not pop, but it is way too advanced for society in the forseable future.

Dash is right up there as a true real life-penetrating technology. We are focusing on exactly that. Not only solving crypto-problems, but solving "real life" and societal problems. At a tech standpoint we only have one chance to succeed. So we need a super-robust infrastructure and code.

That is why I much prefer a slow and steady rise with tremendous advancements anyway, than super-investments that puts us in a high pedestal but then crumble as sub-par. That would invite others to fork us and improve. Spreadcoin tried and burned. In the meantime, extremely talented guys recognised why Dash is better, and jumped in to join the dev team.

They are talking about Ethereum now because of it's ridiculous price rise and investment hype. Not because it is actually make the world better.

.
I get what you mean and I agree. I don't mean we go marketing crazy cause that would be just as bad as doing nothing but we need to be out there constantly.
And I also feel we are spending money on good and needed ideas but maybe they are proposed by the not best qualified people but they get a lot of yes votes because the idea is good.
But to find good people you need to be an opportunity they know about.
 
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qwizzie

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Dash having an identity problem ? No
Dash simply needing more time to further develop its (still rather new) brand-name ? Yes

I also think the interviews Dash / Dev Team / Juan gave at the bitcoin conferences improved Dash awareness immensely,
making it clear Dash stands for much more these days then just a cryptocurrency focussed on anonymity,
 
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TheDashGuy

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This is kind of what I was getting at back when I was yelling at everyone everyday, now I gave up.

People need to reference google searches like "phases of business development" and read up if they want to be good, responsible masternode owners.....
business-development-lifecycle-1024x611.png
 
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GreyGhost

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That is exactly the point. Bitcoin is at a core stale-mate, Ethereum is way way way too advanced to have real world implications for at least 2 generations. Smart contracts and derivates sure are the future, as are self-driving cars and individual personal transport drones. So Bitcoin is legacy, Ethereum is a mega-bubble that may not pop, but it is way too advanced for society in the forseable future.

Dash is right up there as a true real life-penetrating technology. We are focusing on exactly that. Not only solving crypto-problems, but solving "real life" and societal problems. At a tech standpoint we only have one chance to succeed. So we need a super-robust infrastructure and code.

That is why I much prefer a slow and steady rise with tremendous advancements anyway, than super-investments that puts us in a high pedestal but then crumble as sub-par. That would invite others to fork us and improve. Spreadcoin tried and burned. In the meantime, extremely talented guys recognised why Dash is better, and jumped in to join the dev team.

They are talking about Ethereum now because of it's ridiculous price rise and investment hype. Not because it is actually make the world better.

.
Great post, thank you. Only two brief comments:
-- Dash is not some unknown, under the radar entity. Whomever follows crypto is aware of it. I have no clue what the implications could be;
-- Ethereum has given a platform for Slock.it that might be able to make the world a better place. It will for sure, be another crazy hype and a likely bubble. I myself will gauge Ethereum though DAO and its success or failure.

And frankly, I am afraid of DAO -- if it becomes the currency for the IoT -- the window of opportunity for us would be a tad smaller. But than I remember how wast the Net is and start to breathe a bit easier :)
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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www.dashnation.com
For me the identity of Dash is financial empowerment for the masses, and freedom. All of it in a package that will be easier for its users - the borderless Dash Nation - to use. This is the ideology that we should be marketing. The passion of our community is our strength, and will take us far. I discuss it further on Bitcoin Rush tomorrow.
 

raganius

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I agree with GreyGhost that DASH is in the middle of an identity problem. And I think things are becoming worse, as more and more, people seem to be forgeting that DASH is Digital Cash... instead, people are treating DASH as a "voting platform" ... worse, some are trying to make DASH into a socialist easy money funding wacka wacka.... it makes no sense for me, as the scope of the budget voting mechanism is to self sustain DASH, and not to give money to any non relevant bla bla bla.

It's tiresome, it is eroding the community, and it is causing the decision making in the DASH system more and more deteriorated.

Fortunatelly, I can clearly see that eduffield has already noticed this huge problem, and he is keeping a firm grip, in order to try to mitigate it... at first I was totally pro "democratic decisions", but now I do tend to agree more with camosoul and hope that bad ideas will be held back.

Now I have decided to put all my faith on the core team, as they have shown indelibly to have good sense and balance.[end rant]
 

Sapereaude

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I agree with GreyGhost that we have a serious image problem and furthermore it may be deteriorating further due to reasons put forward by raganius. However would like to point out that there are three factors at play here

1. How we are currently being perceived?
2. How we want to be perceived?
3. Is perception changing and how?

I think the discussion need to be branched in these three categories. Especially since we are not talking about hype here yidakee, but reputation\image and that is damned difficult to change. I fear infrastructure or norms changing to the point that DASH would be cast aside like electric car in the early part of last century.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Personally, I think there are several coexistent truths.

1. Dash has departed and morphed from it's original aims / perception

Dashsend was the original USP and had a window of opportunity to expand within the shadow economy. Instead, it rebranded to Dash and instant transactions became the main focus for "real world use".

Dash's priority is not in anonymity but to flirt at the edges with fiat and, thus, AML / KYC requirements. A few thousand nodes sitting behind public IP addresses is not going to save us from spying and collusive government bodies. A 50% damage to the MN network would have what effect to massively adopted end users? If anonymity was a priority, we'd all be functioning through i2p.

2. Dash has a relatively well defined path

As dash evolves, it's future becomes more clearly defined. For me, things are much clearer when I view dash as a franchise.

3. Dash has a perceived conflict of interest

MNs are attractive to investors, making the scarcity of dash more scarce. With the remaining minority of dash, we hope to stimulate and maintain liquidity. But I think that's only possible with abundance (doge style) and price stability (without being pegged to fiat).

Personally, I think dash should split into two coins; DashGold (for investors) and DashSilver for stable day-to-day transactions. DashSilver would be priced in whole numbers, no fiddly fractional numbers.

Of course, none of this will happen, but it would draw a line and make it's intentions clear.

4. Dash Nation-like initiatives are good for short-term only

For most users, USD crosses political divisions. With USD you're not joining / affiliating with a community or club.

Conclusion / Personal View

Dash has morphed and it's future becomes more defined. It does, however, suffer from an identity crisis because MN dividends are it's main claim to fame yet it also seeks to be ubiquitous. Instead of being neutral, Dash Nation-like initiatives simply promotes a club-like experience, thus asking outsiders to consider if they want to be part of it.
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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Personally, I think there are several coexistent truths.

1. Dash has departed and morphed from it's original aims / perception

Dashsend was the original USP and had a window of opportunity to expand within the shadow economy. Instead, it rebranded to Dash and instant transactions became the main focus for "real world use".

Dash's priority is not in anonymity but to flirt at the edges with fiat and, thus, AML / KYC requirements. A few thousand nodes sitting behind public IP addresses is not going to save us from spying and collusive government bodies. A 50% damage to the MN network would have what effect to massively adopted end users? If anonymity was a priority, we'd all be functioning through i2p.

2. Dash has a relatively well defined path

As dash evolves, it's future becomes more clearly defined. For me, things are much clearer when I view dash as a franchise.

3. Dash has a perceived conflict of interest

MNs are attractive to investors, making the scarcity of dash more scarce. With the remaining minority of dash, we hope to stimulate and maintain liquidity. But I think that's only possible with abundance (doge style) and price stability (without being pegged to fiat).

Personally, I think dash should split into two coins; DashGold (for investors) and DashSilver for stable day-to-day transactions. DashSilver would be priced in whole numbers, no fiddly fractional numbers.

Of course, none of this will happen, but it would draw a line and make it's intentions clear.

4. Dash Nation-like initiatives are good for short-term only

For most users, USD crosses political divisions. With USD you're not joining / affiliating with a community or club.

Conclusion / Personal View

Dash has morphed and it's future becomes more defined. It does, however, suffer from an identity crisis because MN dividends are it's main claim to fame yet it also seeks to be ubiquitous. Instead of being neutral, Dash Nation-like initiatives simply promotes a club-like experience, thus asking outsiders to consider if they want to be part of it.
So far, Dash Nation is a "club" that many people are interested in joining. My goal is to sign up the majority of the world. We won't discriminate against anyone either. Bitcoin Rush, craigrant, black, white, rich, poor, old, young.

Dash Nation is borderless and open. And it's currency is going to change the world.

Thanks for your feedback though, bro!
 

GrandMasterDash

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So far, Dash Nation is a "club" that many people are interested in joining. My goal is to sign up the majority of the world. We won't discriminate against anyone either. Bitcoin Rush, craigrant, black, white, rich, poor, old, young.

Dash Nation is borderless and open. And it's currency is going to change the world.

Thanks for your feedback though, bro!
Yes, and I wish you good luck! I only meant to say, for some people, an opinion on a club might form an opinion on dash... in the same way bitcoin community defectors come to dash. For me, I don't need a USD club to want or use USD.
 
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AndyDark

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I agree with Tao and don't agree Dash has an identity crisis at all. For me the purpose of Dash is to be a viable alternative to Bitcoin, that meant first to be private, instant and scalable, non of which Bitcoin really after it's initial growth, and I am only recently understanding how corporate and centralized Bitcoin is becoming. That is a very dangerous position for them to be in long term, the core value has always been decentralization, now you have Google / Yahoo / Horizons / AXA investing millions of $ into a private company the main devs work for and pretending they have no influence and 'represent that majority opinion', it couldn't really be going more wrong for the original ideals - not to mention pracitcally everything in outside of their 80 GB desktop client is centralized, whether that's BitPay, CoinBase, any kind of web or mobile access, mining, funding, decisions - you name it. More recently Dash has been about adding improved decentralization with decentralized funding and growing the masternode network, which is the strongest network after Bitcoin and potentially can be orders of magnitude larger in the future - why is that important? because all cryptocurrencies are internet services and such services need strong networks to support user activity.

The next step is Evolution which is about taking Cryptocurrencies into the mainstream, this is a screenshot of the welcome screen of the new prototype which explains more about what it's doing.

upload_2016-4-3_14-8-28.png



This all takes time, but for me the answer to Dash's identity is doing what Bitcoin was supposed to do but is now refusing to do - providing a decentralized currency for average people to escape the clutches of banks or any other centralized authority, period. Privacy, scalability, resilience, decentralization, speed, accessibility, ease of use, we need to innovate to stay at the top of all of those, and they are all priorities in my opinion. I don't expect the speculators in the crypto space to really understand this yet but the people here do and that is our strength. Just keep doing what we're doing and innovate, there is no crisis there as I see it, quite the opposite.
 
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7dhdaQhZ

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Looking excellent!

What's the ETA for Evolution's release? Also do you know when 12.1 is due?
 

kot

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GreyGhost, I would not say that we have an identity crisis. I am assuming that you came to this conclusion after different opinions observed when you submit your proposal. This is not an identity crisis - in my opinion it is simply an internal competition and different opinions (what is very positive for our project). I have to say I had similar doubts after closure of the other PR project. I was wondering why people would not want good Dash promotion? Why the good project is voted down despite the visible results? .At the end of the day I had to accept the fact that it was closed due to the multiple issues. Period. Those who have money (MN owners) always have the last word in our system. We need to accept that.

I can only speak for myself and (probably) for the core team and state that we do not have any identity crisis.
We have defined very clear long- and sort-term strategy.
We have selected our strategic areas to work with in order to make Dash better.
We have created a strong team of individuals with different skills and experience needed to develop the project.
We have started multiple projects to develop project software, infrastructure, integration with other systems etc.We run them consequently and improve the way we work.
We listen to the voice of community and modify the way the core team works in order to meet the expectations of the MN owners and the entire community.
... and it brings good results.
All of this states that we really know who we are, were are we going and we know what we want to achieve. It is far from any identity crisis.

Do we have issues? Sure! But we work hard to resolve them. More - we are expecting more issues in the future. But it won't not stop us - we learn and getting better and better.
 

AndyDark

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Looking excellent!

What's the ETA for Evolution's release? Also do you know when 12.1 is due?
Probably over 12 months at the current rate. 12.1 I think 2-3 months but that is core and i'm on the web team.

This is just my opinion but this year we should really try to get more developers using budget funds to speed up development or develop to a wider scope like ecosystem too.

A slightly more controversial opinion but...I don't think any of these marketing and PR efforts are going to give the expected results.

The reason is (and this is just me) but I don't know a single mainstream-type user that is going to use a cryptocurrency over PayPal when you need a desktop and harddrive to use it, when there are purely web based alternatives that have already cornered the market. Everyone I know who uses crypto is an "IT enthusiast."

Sure you can use coinbase or BitPay, but how do you justify that to a mainstream user - use this decentralized currency but it's not decentralized actually and you are going through someones server and they need your name and address...huh?

We have to be there on the web and on mobile with the full value - it's decentralized, no one can turn it off, you don't need anyones permission, you use it direct, you don't need a hard drive etc.

am i the only one that gets this??? :)