Darksend: Where are my coins ?

Pipy

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Feb 13, 2015
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I recently tried the DarkSend feature (new to me).
I've launched a mix the 12th in the night to mix them during the night. In the morning, I realised the computer had crashed, and I had to backup my wallet again. (because I work on live USB)
Since then, all my drk are gone from my wallet, and they're not in the darksend balance either. (see screenshots)
I had ~620 drk. I launched a 1000 drk/2 rounds.
Please tell me they're not gone forever.



 

AjM

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Hi Pipy!

Please give more info:

-Wallet downloaded from?
-Wallet version?
-Os (Linux?)
-Any other info?

Please save current wallet.dat and debug.log to safe place.
Have you tried your backup wallet.dat file?

I call devs for you: flare vertoe eduffield UdjinM6
 
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oblox

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If you started DS, your wallet will be generating new addresses for the coins to go to. If you do not have a wallet.dat file backed up containing these addresses, your coins are lost. Live environments are dangerous in this regard.
 
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Pipy

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Crap, so it's not looking so good, is it ?

-I downloaded the wallet from the official website. (darkcoin.io) I didn't check de hash sum, but I'm very careful about my security, and I'm 100% sure not being infected with any sort of RATs nor being victim of any kind of MITM attack.
-The wallet version is (and was) the last stable one: 0.11.1.24
-I'm using Mint (linux) via live USB

I desperately tried to make another darksend mixing (with 5 drk). I was hoping to get back the previous darksend balance. It is actually mixing, pretty sure it won't work..
I did backup my old wallet.dat file, that's why you can see the transactions. But no coins are present.
 

UdjinM6

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I recently tried the DarkSend feature (new to me).
.....I realised the computer had crashed, and I had to backup my wallet again. (because I work on live USB)
Can you clarify what you mean by this ^^^ ? What's your exact config: any of - datadir or -wallet params? How do you backup it?

Crap, so it's not looking so good, is it ?

-I downloaded the wallet from the official website. (darkcoin.io) I didn't check de hash sum, but I'm very careful about my security, and I'm 100% sure not being infected with any sort of RATs nor being victim of any kind of MITM attack.
-The wallet version is (and was) the last stable one: 0.11.1.24
-I'm using Mint (linux) via live USB

I desperately tried to make another darksend mixing (with 5 drk). I was hoping to get back the previous darksend balance. It is actually mixing, pretty sure it won't work..
I did backup my old wallet.dat file, that's why you can see the transactions. But no coins are present.
hmm.. btw, .24 is not announced yet, it's 1 hour old ;)
You need exactly the same wallet.dat you had when your computer crash or the older one. Not an earlier backup.
 

Pipy

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Indeed my version is actually : v0.11.1.23-5907263-beta (64-bit)
I don't know what it was at the time I did the mixing. Probably the same.

What I mean is that I had a backup of my wallet before the mixing. Of course as I'm on a live USB, when my computer crashed I couldn't get the current wallet back...
So I understand that my coins are lost ?
 

UdjinM6

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Indeed my version is actually : v0.11.1.23-5907263-beta (64-bit)
I don't know what it was at the time I did the mixing. Probably the same.

What I mean is that I had a backup of my wallet before the mixing. Of course as I'm on a live USB, when my computer crashed I couldn't get the current wallet back...
So I understand that my coins are lost ?
Well, I guess so... I completely agree with oblox - this kind of environment is a very dangerous option for mixing.
 
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UdjinM6

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Wallet automatic backup would be nice function.
In live environment that wouldn't help anyway. Unless you save wallet.dat (backups) to some external disk every time... but why can't you run live with -datadir=/some/external/path then?.. and that would be a safer solution then the one Pipy had btw....
 

Pipy

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Feb 13, 2015
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Well, I guess so... I completely agree with oblox - this kind of environment is a very dangerous option for mixing.
Well don't you think this is something that should be mention somewhere ? Like in the Darkcoin 101 ?
Do you know how many people are using darkcoin on live environment, on TAILS ?

I was putting a lot of faith in the drk. Now it's like my coins: all gone...
 

oblox

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Well don't you think this is something that should be mention somewhere ? Like in the Darkcoin 101 ?
Do you know how many people are using darkcoin on live environment, on TAILS ?

I was putting a lot of faith in the drk. Now it's like my coins: all gone...
Live environment or not, maintaining backups on an external disk that isn't live is good practice. It just seems it was a poor timing for your live environment to crash without you having a recent backup after all the new addresses were added to the wallet.dat file.
 

UdjinM6

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Well don't you think this is something that should be mention somewhere ? Like in the Darkcoin 101 ?
Do you know how many people are using darkcoin on live environment, on TAILS ?

I was putting a lot of faith in the drk. Now it's all gone...
Yes, I guess it would be nice to mention it somewhere and no, I have no idea how many people run Darkcoin in one or another kind of environment.
There is no single guide I can remember mentioning using Live USB for mixing btw. Why didn't you ask before doing this?
There are a lot of people here who could help you to prevent this kind of situation...
I'm sorry for your loss but that was you choice to setup things this way.
 
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Sub-Ether

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Well, I guess so... I completely agree with oblox - this kind of environment is a very dangerous option for mixing.
My question might overlap this, Udjin. If I was changing settings where the wallet was stored (due to testnet lol), and when I updated to latest version it 'appeared' lost, but it was not, because I had messed with data directory path somehow.
For example when I run version .0.11.1.22 it gets the right wallet but when I run version .0.11.23 from the same folder it finds (from where?) an old wallet I thought I'd deleted forever from the roaming folder and I also deleted the peers and ran reindex as well.
I am thinking should I start darkcoin-qt.exe in cmd and assign the data path to it? If so, what is the command structure in Windows, thanks :D
 

UdjinM6

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My question might overlap this, Udjin. If I was changing settings where the wallet was stored (due to testnet lol), and when I updated to latest version it 'appeared' lost, but it was not, because I had messed with data directory path somehow.
For example when I run version .0.11.1.22 it gets the right wallet but when I run version .0.11.23 from the same folder it finds (from where?) an old wallet I thought I'd deleted forever from the roaming folder and I also deleted the peers and ran reindex as well.
I am thinking should I start darkcoin-qt.exe in cmd and assign the data path to it? If so, what is the command structure in Windows, thanks :D
I don't think I get it. You can run exe from anywhere you want. datadir option in darkcoin.conf (or whatever you want with -conf option) or -datadir in cmd line will tell where to store.. well.. data: blockchain, wallet, peers, logs. For testnet that will be the same folder + /testnet3/ (added automatically by wallet, you should not add it to datadir option). And all data for testnet will be in that testne3 folder. Anyway there is a "command-line options" in Help menu that will give you full list of options and some description. Or you can run daemon with --help.
 
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AjM

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In live environment that wouldn't help anyway. Unless you save wallet.dat (backups) to some external disk every time... but why can't you run live with -datadir=/some/external/path then?.. and that would be a safer solution then the one Pipy had btw....
Yes, no help with live environment, but in general auto backup would be very nice,
especially if user can configure diskdrive and folder, preferable different disk where darkcoin is installed.
 

Pipy

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Yes, I guess it would be nice to mention it somewhere and no, I have no idea how many people run Darkcoin in one or another kind of environment.
There is no single guide I can remember mentioning using Live USB for mixing btw. Why didn't you ask before doing this?
There are a lot of people here who could help you to prevent this kind of situation...
I'm sorry for your loss but that was you choice to setup things this way.
A lot of people are using darkcoins for its anonymous purposes, so a lot of us are worried about our anonimity, therefore using live environments...
I didn't ask because that's not mentioned anywhere that mixing could be a very dangerous thing to do. I thought (like a lot of my friends using drk) that having my wallet backed up on different drives I was safe for any transactions. Sure that setup was my choice, but that's really not written anywhere that you should save your wallet after the mixing operation. And that's fucking great...
 

oblox

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A lot of people are using darkcoins for its anonymous purposes, so a lot of us are worried about our anonimity, therefore using live environments...
I didn't ask because that's not mentioned anywhere that mixing could be a very dangerous thing to do. I thought (like a lot of my friends using drk) that having my wallet backed up on different drives I was safe for any transactions. Sure that setup was my choice, but that's really not written anywhere that you should save your wallet after the mixing operation. And that's fucking great...
Chances are if you specified your datadir somewhere off the live drive that allowed the written files to be saved in the event the live environment crashed, you would have your coins still. The decision to keep the datadir enclosed in the live environment when DS creates new addresses to the wallet.dat file is asking for trouble. I thought it was well known that the DS process creates new addresses but perhaps it needs to be better disclosed.
 
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UdjinM6

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A lot of people are using darkcoins for its anonymous purposes, so a lot of us are worried about our anonimity, therefore using live environments...
I didn't ask because that's not mentioned anywhere that mixing could be a very dangerous thing to do. I thought (like a lot of my friends using drk) that having my wallet backed up on different drives I was safe for any transactions. Sure that setup was my choice, but that's really not written anywhere that you should save your wallet after the mixing operation. And that's fucking great...
Actually to be completely safe you should backup any bitcoin-like wallets after each send operation because the leftover moves to some newly generated change address you had no private keys for before doing this. Mixing is no exception here - it's the same send operations but performed automatically.
Once again, I'm sorry for your loss but that's how things works.

EDIT: there is actually a keypool of 1000 keys so you have a gap of 1000 sending operations (one mixing round takes few 10s of them)
 
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AjM

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I thought it was well known that the DS process creates new addresses but perhaps it needs to be better disclosed.
Indeed, how about that first run info, stated in there: DONT USE LIVE ENVIRONMET OS!

EDIT: i mean this: "As this is the first time the program is launched, you can choose where Darkcoin Core will store its data."

I am going to add live os warning to finnish translation.
 
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oblox

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Indeed, how about that first run info, stated in there: DONT USE LIVE ENVIRONMET OS!

EDIT: i mean this: "As this is the first time the program is launched, you can choose where Darkcoin Core will store its data."

I am going to add live os warning to finnish translation.
I think that makes sense to prompt a user the ability to specify where they want their datadir and/or wallet.dat file saved at. The default could be as normal but being able to specify could help prevent these sorts of losses.
 
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AjM

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Added, like this:

As this is the first time the program is launched, you can choose where Darkcoin Core will store its data.
Warning: Dont use live operating system from usb, dvd or cd disk !
If your computer or program crash, you can loose all your Darkcoins !
 
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UdjinM6

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AjM

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Added, like this:

As this is the first time the program is launched, you can choose where Darkcoin Core will store its data.
Warning: Dont use live operating system from usb, dvd or cd disk !
If your computer or program crash, you can loose all your Darkcoins !
Corrected to:
As this is the first time the program is launched, you can choose where Darkcoin Core will store its data.
Warning: If you run live operating system from usb, dvd or cd disk, set data directory to different safe location.

EDIT: Translators, if you want add that warning, it is found in line 254 in transifex.
 
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UdjinM6

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Corrected to:
As this is the first time the program is launched, you can choose where Darkcoin Core will store its data.
Warning: If you run live operating system from usb, dvd or cd disk, set data directory to different safe location.

EDIT: Translators, if you want add that warning, it is found in line 254 in transifex.
vertoe
 

vertoe

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its not about translations, change the source first.

i dont see why this is an darkcoin issue.

your wallet has a keypool an it gets refilled from time to time.
the only difference from bitcoin is the size https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Key_pool

there is even a paragraph on this issue on the bitcoin wiki.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet#Securing_the_Bitcoin-QT_or_bitcoind_wallet

The wallet contains a pool of queued keys. By default there are 100 keys in the key pool. The size of the pool is configurable using the "-keypool" command line argument. When you need an address for whatever reason (send, “new address”, generation, etc.), the key is not actually generated freshly, but taken from this pool. A brand new address is generated to fill the pool back to 100. So when a backup is first created, it has all of your old keys plus 100 unused keys. After sending a transaction, it has 99 unused keys. After a total of 100 new-key actions, you will start using keys that are not in your backup. Since the backup does not have the private keys necessary for authorizing spends of these coins, restoring from the old backup will cause you to lose Bitcoins.
using darkcoin or bitcoin in a live system is dangerous unless you know what you do.

i'm sorry for your loss but please dont blame us on not getting the proper documentation done. help contributing the docs and help others to avoid such situations: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/help-the-darksend-documentation.2392/
 

moli

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Pipy, so sorry to hear this happened to you, but I'm wondering if there's a way to recover this. Someone in the linux community might know how to?

I've been running Darksend on Testnet and Mainnet many many times! but so far I haven't run into this kind of trouble of losing the coins. I guess I'm lucky.

So, vertoe, UdjinM6, is there another OS or environment that we shouldn't use to run Darkcoin/Darksend?
I think vertoe would say "don't use windows", but that's exactly what I've been using! :tongue:
 

UdjinM6

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Pipy, so sorry to hear this happened to you, but I'm wondering if there's a way to recover this. Someone in the linux community might know how to?

I've been running Darksend on Testnet and Mainnet many many times! but so far I haven't run into this kind of trouble of losing the coins. I guess I'm lucky.

So, vertoe, UdjinM6, is there another OS or environment that we shouldn't use to run Darkcoin/Darksend?
I think vertoe would say "don't use windows", but that's exactly what I've been using! :tongue:
How keypool works: Darkcoin wallet generates 1000 keys on initialization (originally it's 100 for Bitcoin btw) and each time you use one of these addresses it generates another one. Sp at any given time you have 1000 addresses that are already known to you but yet unused. 1000 addresses should be enough if you are on "normal" environment because wallet flushed to disk very often.
This means you can run wallet in any environment. Live is just dangerous with default settings because live was never meant as default. If you want to use it in live I would suggest to generate new wallet (with "-wallet=..." or by moving original wallet somewhere) with larger keypool, smth like 10000 maybe: "-keepool=10000". This should give you 10000 key gap between backups.
 
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moli

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How keypool works: Darkcoin wallet generates 1000 keys on initialization (originally it's 100 for Bitcoin btw) and each time you use one of these addresses it generates another one. Sp at any given time you have 1000 addresses that are already known to you but yet unused. 1000 addresses should be enough if you are on "normal" environment because wallet flushed to disk very often.
This means you can run wallet in any environment. Live is just dangerous with default settings because live was never meant as default. If you want to use it in live I would suggest to generate new wallet (with "-wallet=..." or by moving original wallet somewhere) with larger keypool, smth like 10000 maybe: "-keepool=10000". This should give you 10000 key gap between backups.
How do you create a larger key pool? I don't understand what you mean: "This should give you 10000 key gap between backups".. And this can be used safely on a live USB? Thanks for educating us on this matter! :)
 

UdjinM6

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How do you create a larger key pool? I don't understand what you mean: "This should give you 10000 key gap between backups".. And this can be used safely on a live USB? Thanks for educating us on this matter! :)
You can create larger keepool on wallet creation by adding -keepool. If you already have wallet.dat you can move it somewhere else or use -wallet cmd-line option to create another one. So it would be smth like this:

darkcoind-qt -wallet=walletwithlargekeypool.dat - keypool=10000

This will generate new wallet "walletwithlargekeypool.dat" in your data folder. And this wallet will always have 10000 pre-generated keys. Keys are used one by one but every time you use one address new address added at the end of a list. Suppose you just created a wallet like this and created backup copying it somewhere. In this particular example you can pretty safely use 10000 internal addresses to mix coins.

Mixing 100 DRK for 2 rounds can take ~150-170 addresses, for example, which is fine with default settings of 1000 keys. So even after that mixing you can open your backup wallet and still will be able to see/move all your coins.
 
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pille

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Is my understanding right, when Pipy mixed 620 DASH 2 rounds he used more than 1000 new addresses? Thats a big problem in my eyes. I mean you not only can loose your current used wallet on a live system. HDDs, SSDs, USB Sticks, whatever... can crash everytime, Shouldn't the keypool cover at least one mixing session? At least a warning before start mixing if its the case: "This Darksend operation exceeds your currend keypool size. In case of Hardware failure you will loose all your coins! Please create a wallet with keypool > x and try again".
 
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