Budget proposal: Change of X11 mining algorithm because of ASICs

Is this a good idea?


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SnowHater

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Dec 25, 2015
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What I'm trying to say that both botnet and ASIC miners can dump their reward immediately, so there is no difference in overall downward price pressure in that case between them. One can't say for sure that coin dump are caused by the botnet or by ASICs. I'm not sure about that though.
 
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oaxaca

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Jul 8, 2014
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What I'm trying to say that both botnet and ASIC miners can dump their reward immediately, so there is no difference in overall downward price pressure in that case between them. One can't say for sure that coin dump are caused by the botnet or by ASICs. I'm not sure about that though.
Code:
Technology           Rate of Dumping
--------------- ----------------------
CPU                 Somewhere between 0 and 100%
GPU                 Somewhere between 0 and 100%
ASIC               Somewhere between 0 and 100%
Game Virus          100%
If "Game Virus" has less DASH, overall downward dumping pressure goes down. Got it?
 

SnowHater

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BTW, can we exclude botnets from mining via some other method than supplanting it with ASICs?
 
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nik443

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changing mining algorithm could help

Why can't virus creator hold his coins instead of dump it? Maybe he concernes about DASH future the same way that ASIC manufacturers do.
 
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nik443

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ASIC mining vs mining with universal devices (video card). Let's cover all possible outcomes for both cases of mining.

What will happen if a dictator comes to power? If he forbid the issuing of "money substitutes"? Who will first stop mining then, the people that mine at home on universal devices or several large mining farms? Big corporation can never run more universal devices then the rest of the people. Will regular people keep "special devices for money substitutes issuing" in that case? How many people will go to the demonstration in defense of their rights? Will be all of them arrested and put in prisons? It's all apart of decentralization, the popularity and thus prices.
 
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SnowHater

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Another very important point to make about the Satoshi Roundtable was the very large issue with mining centralization in the Bitcoin space. When Satoshi originally invented Bitcoin, he did not anticipate the excessive mining centralization that has become a dominant force in the Bitcoin space. Due to this, we now have a small group of people that literally control the protocol consensus and their short term interests may be in conflict with the long term interests of other stakeholders, industry, users, etc. We definitely do not want our ecosystem to follow the same failed course and we definitely would have under the pooled ASIC mining paradigm. This is mainly because there are differences in efficiency that a miner can gain depending on where they live, which can give a huge advantage when their higher investment returns are compounded. Efficiencies such as cheaper labor, cheap or free electricity and even withholding newer advanced ASICs for their own mining operations, then selling them after they become less effective. After many iterations of these phenomenon in BTC we have come to a situation where the ones who have access to these advantages effectively control Bitcoin.

After hours of discussions, we believe we have found the solution to the unfair mining advantages that produce centralization around certain jurisdictions that control the production of ASICS. We will be releasing much more information about this soon, but are feverishly working on this project for v12.1. We’re going to be releasing much more information about this in the coming weeks; it’s going to be a giant advantage for the Dash project.
Really glad to read this.
 

Miner237

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May 28, 2014
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What about the possibility that the alleged botnet you mentioned was in fact secret ASIC mining?
THIS!
this has got me thinking, and someone said ASIC is like cancer to miners, i am starting to agree that maybe we should talk about changing something to at least resist large hash centralization somehow if its not changing the algorithm. as a miner i paid attention to global hash and i would watch the hash rates rise and drop sometimes 50% and blocks would take much longer to confirm. i changed my view when i realized i would be allowing dash creation centralization. I felt it should be against my naturally decentralized view to want to allow this to be out of the reach of more people. This is the problem how do we keep mining decentralized while allowing the technology to grow...
 

MangledBlue

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Jun 28, 2014
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It's called PROGRESS my friends.
If you don't want people creating and than using, new technology's, in the DASH environment, maybe, you should sell the DASH you hold and look for another coin/token/crypto.
 
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jpr

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May 11, 2014
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It's called PROGRESS my friends.
If you don't want people creating and than using, new technology's, in the DASH environment, maybe, you should sell the DASH you hold and look for another coin/token/crypto.
Look at bitcoin and it's asics. A few big mining giants rule the whole bitcoin environment. Is that a progress?
 
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MangledBlue

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Then maybe more people should invest and/or design better technology to broaden/widen that field
Pretty sure nobody just GAVE those people the technology to be in the position they are in
Either you want to get involved or you don't.
BUT
Bitch'n about the grass being greener on your neighbors lawn, is not going to get you anywhere
 
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stan.distortion

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Oct 30, 2014
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It's a tough game Blue, economy of scale dictates the deepest pockets push out competition and from there it's cartels and who can keep going at a loss the for longest, given enough time it always plays out that mining becomes either a monopoly or a very exclusive club.
 

jpr

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May 11, 2014
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Then maybe more people should invest and/or design better technology to broaden/widen that field
Pretty sure nobody just GAVE those people the technology to be in the position they are in
Either you want to get involved or you don't.
BUT
Bitch'n about the grass being greener on your neighbors lawn, is not going to get you anywhere
You see. I am only trying to discuss the problem we face here and you are telling me to find a different coin to invest. The decision about avoiding Asics has not been made yet right? So it's not like "if you don't like it then go away". Evan wrote in other post he found a solution to this so we should find out soon.
 
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SnowHater

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ASIC is like a virus, X11 changing is like an antivirus. Both are progress, but intentions of them are different.
 
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TanteStefana

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I know Evan says he has some kind of solution that they're working on. But I'm wondering, is there another algorithm available that's proven that we can use?

Also, since MN can reject blocks not made with the correct wallet, and can force miners to switch, is there the same risk?

I'm personally not convinced if it's about "fairness". Life simply isn't fair. I can't/couldn't afford a special video card, and have been mining on an old 5750 which doesn't give me much, but I mine anyway because it's fun.

And if we wanted to build ASICs in the USA, they have capable companies in Texas, I believe? It would cost more, but you'd be the first to own them :)

Seriously, though, if they can't control the network, I don't have a problem with it. Though I admit I may not be seeing an issue. I'll have to re-read this thread to see if I missed something.
 
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TanteStefana

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I`m in favor of ASIC resistance because that`s what DRK/DASH was supposed to be, when I got into it in april 2014. I hope the masternodes rule accordingly.
Do keep in mind, at the very beginning Evan said his goal was to keep ASICs at bay until the coin matured (not exact words) He was hoping for 2 years, and I find it a bit uncanny that he got just over 2 years. (well, they've probably been in use longer though)

I'm not saying we shouldn't change algorithms, but I don't want to change to an unproven alogorithm, and even when we change, it'll probably end up with a single algo, which means it'll probably be replaced by an ASIC much easier next time around. So is it worth it to constantly fight this? Maybe it is, maybe not.
 

jpr

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May 11, 2014
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Could someone explain to me in simple words: How exactly is dash going to be better with a centralized Asic mining? Is it going to be safer? Faster? Would there be any advantage over the present situation? Why do so many of you want this like it was some kind of promotion to another level or something? The history of BTC shows it's nothing good. We have that advantage to dodge this bullet. Shouldn't we avoid bitcoin's mistakes?
 
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Geert

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Aug 26, 2015
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We need to wait and see. Coinmine.pl is mining 60% of the blocks. Maybe ASICs will change that.
 
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TanteStefana

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Could someone explain to me in simple words: How exactly is dash going to be better with a centralized Asic mining? Is it going to be safer? Faster? Would there be any advantage over the present situation? Why do so many of you want this like it was some kind of promotion to another level or something? The history of BTC shows it's nothing good. We have that advantage to dodge this bullet. Shouldn't we avoid bitcoin's mistakes?
The positives of ASICs is that it becomes more and more difficult to change a block. Lets say you want (and this is super simplified) to change a block to include a double spend or take a transaction away. If you could pull enough hash, you could possibly win the next two blocks solidifying the change and insert your changes. then, having the longest block, your fork should win. But you would have to pull a heck of a lot of hash in order to do this, and that is why the more confirmations a transaction has, the more secure and solid it is. To find 2 blocks before the network finds the next block you would essentially have to have double the hashing power. 3 blocks, tripple, etc....

How do you get double/tripple, etc... the network hashing power? Well, it isn't easy, that's for sure. But you'd have to expect that ASICs are not kept idle which would mean that they are almost always working. On the other hand, only a very few people use their GPUs to mine in the world, so the possibility of getting a successful botnet attack going and controlling them for short periods of time to attack a blockchain, heck, even the infected wouldn't realize they had a botnet on their computer if the attackers didn't try to mine all the time. And they can sit there quietly until they have an attack plan ready to go, then fire it up, and voila, get 2-3 blocks and control the blockchain.

So ASICs make that far harder to do and thus make the network safer.
 

raganius

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I know Evan says he has some kind of solution that they're working on. But I'm wondering, is there another algorithm available that's proven that we can use?

Also, since MN can reject blocks not made with the correct wallet, and can force miners to switch, is there the same risk?

I'm personally not convinced if it's about "fairness". Life simply isn't fair. I can't/couldn't afford a special video card, and have been mining on an old 5750 which doesn't give me much, but I mine anyway because it's fun.

And if we wanted to build ASICs in the USA, they have capable companies in Texas, I believe? It would cost more, but you'd be the first to own them :)

Seriously, though, if they can't control the network, I don't have a problem with it. Though I admit I may not be seeing an issue. I'll have to re-read this thread to see if I missed something.
It would make no sense, IMO, an algo change as proposed here. If that's what Evan meant, then I hope he is very sure of what he is doing, because it will be a very dangerous move for DASH to thoughtlessly mess with this kind of thing.

We need to wait and see. Coinmine.pl is mining 60% of the blocks. Maybe ASICs will change that.
Agreed: It makes no sense to say that ASICs are provoking DASH's centralisation, as I have already said in this same discussion.

Finally, to say that DASH will be less secure with ASICs' bigger hashrate is a clear demonstration of scaremongering ignorance on what PoW is.
 

TanteStefana

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If the plans for Evolution haven't changed, then I'm not worried about mining centralization, as long as there is enough hash power to keep the chain secure. So I agree with you raganius , changing the algorithm could be a very bad move.
 

SnowHater

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Dec 25, 2015
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I think that overall hashrate of the network != security of the network, but overall cost to attack it is. Regular antivirus should easily deal with any botnet on regular PC, shouldn't it?
 

TanteStefana

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I think that overall hashrate of the network != security of the network, but overall cost to attack it is. Regular antivirus should easily deal with any botnet on regular PC, shouldn't it?
Sure, but there are a TON of people who don't bother with it. I have friends, who come to me for help with their computers all the time, complaining that they're so slow. First thing I do is run malwarebytes, I find a few hundred to thousands of trojans, etc... clean them out, beg them to at least use Malwarebytes free once a week, but they don't. Or they buy the computer with norton's and don't notice that it expired 3 years ago. This is super typical. Since every household in America pretty much has a computer, and if you can get 20% of them infected (no easy feat, actually) but if you could, you'd have MASSIVE power.