Amanda B Johnson/BitcoinUncensored

UdjinM6

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Hey, @amanda_b_johnson, you did pretty well there imo, good job! :)

I'd like to add few notes (pls argue if you don't agree):
- I'm not sure why they mentioned that they were "kicked" out of somewhere - channels? forum? can't remember anything like that...
- Guys seems to think that the only way value comes to Bitcoin is from burned electricity which is not true imo - the value comes from user's trust and burned electricity is only one way of giving them that trust, other ways are points of sale, services, market/speculations, investment flow in all kind of startups etc i.e. the whole ecosystem is what gives Bitcoin its value. Normal people don't really give a sh*t about "packed" electricity - it's miners' problem - people care is it useful or not, and that's basically it: useful - ok, buy, no one really cares if miners are able to pay for their electricity or not at that btc/$ rate, again, it's miners' problem.
- "Smartest people are in Bitcoin" - being the first mover it grabbed the best scientist, programmers and all other kind of involved people. No doubt. So what? No one else can try to do smth? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- "No one uses it" - well, Litecoin has only 4x more txes for example. Many other crypto besides Bitcoin are not even having any meaningful txes at all (I'm not counting txs to move coins to/from exchanges). And btw you can easily say that no one uses Bitcoin either - it's a tiny group of geeks comparing to the world population, and imo it has nothing to do with helping "unserved" or "unbanked" right now, it's a pure speculation as well.
- $10K per day attack - of course it's incomparably cheap to attack any network be it Dash or e.g. Litecoin oher than Bitcoin... just as easy as it was to attack Bitcoin when it had a price of $1, so nothing new here. But again, security rises with price, but at the same time price rises because of usefulness and security is only a part of it. I believe we need to improve usefulness and that how security will improve too.
- CoinJoin - well, it is definitely not the best option for privacy - it's slow and can be disrupted (by some participant who just won't sign final tx for example) but tweaked version of it works a bit better than its original one (e.g. we charge small collateral for interrupting mixing process). Yes it still has issues, yes there are not that many users to mix with because it has issues, and yes one of the issues is that there are not that many users. ;) That's the original issue of CoinJoin we hadn't solved yet, true. But we'll fix other issues eventually and hopefully users will come if we do it well enough so "not enough users to mix with" issue should be solved too then.
- Sybil-attack i.e. spin up many masternodes and compromise network (by disrupting quorums?) - that's not quite true that malicious MN owner is not punished for acting dishonest. To perform such attack he has to own a lot of MNs (i.e. a lot of MN*1000DASH) and the very next moment when attack is revealed the $ price of his holding will drop together with $/DASH rate. So even if there is no direct punishment like "burn his coins for misbehaving" there is a market force that pushes him to cooperate rather than to attack.
- "Why would one make ASICs for Dash when there are still no ASICs even for Litecoin???" Well, I won't give a direct answer for that one, let them guess ;)
- Instamine... oh, c'mon, such an obvious question... they should read the wiki before interviewing, it's not even funny anymore.

Final note: You might noticed that many issues (small number of contributors and users, low liquidity and security) are chicken-egg problems actually and that is probably the hardest part of them...
 

demo

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Hey,
- Sybil-attack i.e. spin up many masternodes and compromise network (by disrupting quorums?) - that's not quite true that malicious MN owner is not punished for acting dishonest. To perform such attack he has to own a lot of MNs (i.e. a lot of MN*1000DASH) and the very next moment when attack is revealed the $ price of his holding will drop together with $/DASH rate. So even if there is no direct punishment like "burn his coins for misbehaving" there is a market force that pushes him to cooperate rather than to attack.
Hmmm...so there is also a market force that pushes for the Sybil-attack bugs not to be solved!!!

Do you think this is good for the future of dash, the market force to cover the bugs rather than solve them?

The bugs are always bugs, and the later they are uncovered, the more catastrophic it is.
 
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Sub-Ether

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They sound biased and condescending to Amanda-are they trying to catch her out with the hash rate question?
The interviewer seemed to think he could take over the network with his personal holdings of 'darkcoin', its difficult to believe he holds over one million, and talking masternodes ..
'a security issue as a completely centralised platform'
really, do they even understand how that works?
They say they can take over the network for $10,000 a day by buying up the miners, there are many independant miners, the hash rate would just increase if they buy up loads of ASIC there are still many people mining on no profit, it would not be as easy as they think, and even so, there are always update possiblilites to the masternodes to stop the attack.

Btw, as Ethereum is mentioned, 1 of the chief ringtoken Dev's has just given up so there is not much anonymity work going atm, there are design problems with sharding, untested code leading to the DAO hack where everyone loses their money on the 15th July, mmm, whereas Dash has a hardened proof tested bitcoin code.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4r0s2x/ringtoken_uploaded_into_testnet_but_project_will/

Byzzz,
Regards.

P.S. He keeps saying dashcoin and labels Amanda a 'liberterian' and places her in a easy to understand box, brrr,
P.P.S why is the other guy shouting instamine in the background, barrr!

Edit: does not believe Dash has X11 Asics, ROFL
 
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Sub-Ether

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Regarding 'instamine', the interviewer's seem oblivious to the fact that Evan started a thread in bitcointalk and asked everybody if they wanted to restart the genesis block, the community decided to keep things as they were, it was not Evan Duffield's decision.
 

Sub-Ether

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And they are wrong about people getting into the dollar, this charts shows usage,



My work is done :D
 

Solarminer

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Hey, @amanda_b_johnson, you did pretty well there imo, good job! :)
- Guys seems to think that the only way value comes to Bitcoin is from burned electricity which is not true imo - the value comes from user's trust and burned electricity is only one way of giving them that trust, other ways are points of sale, services, market/speculations, investment flow in all kind of startups etc i.e. the whole ecosystem is what gives Bitcoin its value. Normal people don't really give a sh*t about "packed" electricity - it's miners' problem - people care is it useful or not, and that's basically it: useful - ok, buy, no one really cares if miners are able to pay for their electricity or not at that btc/$ rate, again, it's miners' problem.

- $10K per day attack - of course it's incomparably cheap to attack any network be it Dash or e.g. Litecoin oher than Bitcoin... just as easy as it was to attack Bitcoin when it had a price of $1, so nothing new here. But again, security rises with price, but at the same time price rises because of usefulness and security is only a part of it. I believe we need to improve usefulness and that how security will improve too.
.
UdjinM6, actually, they do have a point about spending 45% of the block reward on mining instead of 100%. The $9K/mo isn't used correctly. See an excerpt from a more formal response I am working on with Macrochip.

20:00 CDR "If you remove the subsidies by half then you are necessarily cutting the energy burnt in half [...] and that makes it 50% less secure!"

The security of the network is based on the hashrate on the network(related to how many funds are allocated to mining, the Algo = X11, and value of the coin)

So with bitcoin, 100% of the rewards are allocated to mining with just the SHA256 algo. Although $2.3 Million is sent to miners each day, the network cap is $10 billion. The ratio of mining income to market cap is 0.00023. That drop in half a few days though.

With Dash 45% of the rewards are allocated to mining. The mining algo is X11 (which has 10 more hashing algos than just SHA256). Dash has about $9,000 going to miners and the same to masternodes. It also has $900 going to a development budget to fix bugs and add features(a bonus for security). The network cap is $46 Million. The ratio of mining income to market cap is 0.0002. Actually very similar to Bitcoin's ratio now (double next week). If Dash increases to the same market cap then then it will also be paying $2.2-2.3 Million to miners. And with Dash's more secure algo and the 2nd tier masternode network this isn't even close when comparing Bitcoin's security to Dash.

26:00 CDR: "So Amanda, to censor the network right now for Dash it costs around 9,200 dollars per day"

That ~$9,000/day is close for mining rewards, but a 51% attack isn’t about the Dash given out. It is about the hashrate needed to get 51% of the mining power. The current network hashrate for Dash is 500GH/s and the cost of an ASIC miner is about 1 Dash/Mh/s. So it would cost over 500,000 Dash($3.5 Million) to buy enough mining power to get enough mining power to have 51% of all mining power and do a 51% attack. Of course if this starts to happen, it would only take a few days to add a collateral requirement/GH for miners, easily voted on with the budget.

The points have some validity....but the usage is incorrect.
 
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UdjinM6

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UdjinM6, actually, they do have a point about spending 45% of the block reward on mining instead of 100%. The $9K/mo isn't used correctly. See an excerpt from a more formal response I am working on with Macrochip.

20:00 CDR "If you remove the subsidies by half then you are necessarily cutting the energy burnt in half [...] and that makes it 50% less secure!"

The security of the network is based on the hashrate on the network(related to how many funds are allocated to mining, the Algo = X11, and value of the coin)

So with bitcoin, 100% of the rewards are allocated to mining with just the SHA256 algo. Although $2.3 Million is sent to miners each day, the network cap is $10 billion. The ratio of mining income to market cap is 0.00023. That drop in half a few days though.

With Dash 45% of the rewards are allocated to mining. The mining algo is X11 (which has 10 more hashing algos than just SHA256). Dash has about $9,000 going to miners and the same to masternodes. It also has $900 going to a development budget to fix bugs and add features(a bonus for security). The network cap is $46 Million. The ratio of mining income to market cap is 0.0002. Actually very similar to Bitcoin's ratio now (double next week). If Dash increases to the same market cap then then it will also be paying $2.2-2.3 Million to miners. And with Dash's more secure algo and the 2nd tier masternode network this isn't even close when comparing Bitcoin's security to Dash.
...
That's an interesting point, thanks!

...
26:00 CDR: "So Amanda, to censor the network right now for Dash it costs around 9,200 dollars per day"

That ~$9,000/day is close for mining rewards, but a 51% attack isn’t about the Dash given out. It is about the hashrate needed to get 51% of the mining power. The current network hashrate for Dash is 500GH/s and the cost of an ASIC miner is about 1 Dash/Mh/s. So it would cost over 500,000 Dash($3.5 Million) to buy enough mining power to get enough mining power to have 51% of all mining power and do a 51% attack. Of course if this starts to happen, it would only take a few days to add a collateral requirement/GH for miners, easily voted on with the budget.

The points have some validity....but the usage is incorrect.
Well, I'm not quite sure about $millions actually because you don't have to buy hardware, you can rent it...
Nicehash offers ~150GH/s right now at HRP ~0.025 BTC/GH/day i.e. ~3.8 BTC or ~$2.6K to rent it all. Miningrigrentals offers another ~40Gh/s but prices are much higher - ~0.035 on avg so another ~1.4 BTC or ~$1k to rent it all. Maybe there are some others but let's count just these two for now. So, it's ~190 GH/s in total for ~$3.6K/day (if I get calculations right) but I bet that even if you would try to buy all this ~200 GH/s of available hashpower prices for leftover would jump up like crazy and you would still need to buy the rest of hashpower (~300 GH/s) somewhere. On the other hand you don't need to buy them for the whole day, some rigs are available for just few hours and that could be enough to censor/delay transactions for a short period of time.
Not sure about "it would only take a few days to add a collateral requirement/GH for miners" also tbh - that's a change in consensus and potentially a censorship of small miners/pools (to say at least)
 

xjones

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These two guys hosting the podcast seem to be a couple of nuts.

If they had had any serious points to make, they would have published a paper about it, in the style of competent researchers, instead of simply spouting off on a podcast. We shouldn't be legitimizing their allegations by responding to them.
 

demo

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These two guys hosting the podcast seem to be a couple of nuts.

If they had had any serious points to make, they would have published a paper about it, in the style of competent researchers, instead of simply spouting off on a podcast. We shouldn't be legitimizing their allegations by responding to them.
You are right. You shouldn't be legitimizing their allegations by responding to them.
Verba volant, scripta manent.

I never give interviews, I never post videos, I never post in newspapers or other media that do not allow answers to be given below. I hate monologues, thats why I avoid video talks and oral talks. I am only in favor of the written dialogue and of the written texts. Thats why all my quotes are in forums, they are always written and everyone is allowed to argue, agree or disagree just below my quote. I respect people who behave like that, and I detest cafe talks, video advertising, interviews and monologues.
 

Elokk

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These guys are pretty legit, listen to their interviews with Peter Todd, Jeff Garzik, Adam Back, Big Lambda, etc. They raise a lot of questions with everyone they interview which is healthy unlike the Lets Talk Bitcoin network which interviews anybody and everybody not calling people out on bogus claims.

I also think the asic subject is hilarious considering DASH was promoted as being asic proof for so long. I went to the extent of handing out DASH flyers at a conference on my own accord that had this bs printed on it. I had one guy laugh about the asic proof claim and I agreed with him at the time that it was probably not true. I had faith in the DASH project but more and more this is starting to look more like a cult similar to ethereum.
 

raze

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I also think the asic subject is hilarious considering DASH was promoted as being asic proof for so long. I went to the extent of handing out DASH flyers at a conference on my own accord that had this bs printed on it. I had one guy laugh about the asic proof claim and I agreed with him at the time that it was probably not true. I had faith in the DASH project but more and more this is starting to look more like a cult similar to ethereum.
Dash was never touted as being ASIC-proof (at least not by anyone who knew what they were talking about). ASIC-resistant, yes, which it was. There was never any intent to avoid them forever.

Quote from Evan on March 27, 2014:
The whole point of X11 is to try and get the same network growth cycle as Bitcoin. Once Darkcoin is worth enough, people will invest the capital to create the ASICs. I never really had an issue with that, in fact that was the point of creating a new hashing algorithm, I think it will be healthy in the end to move to ASICs.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529570.msg5935102#msg5935102
 

rustycase

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Dash was never touted as being ASIC-proof (at least not by anyone who knew what they were talking about). ASIC-resistant, yes, which it was. There was never any intent to avoid them forever.

Quote from Evan on March 27, 2014:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529570.msg5935102#msg5935102
Wow.
I did not know that was ED's opinion on the subject.

...not quite sure I would agree with it, either...
Possibility of ASIC capability turns the entire matter over to the dragon,

or, is DASH already mined by ASIC's ?

Newbie.... I just don't know.

As many others did, I watched the dump, just before the halvening. And I watched the discovery of a new block by the antpool with sufficient time for mining shortly before the halvening.

IF the dragon controls manufacturing, and mining of altcoins, too ??? Gosh are the rest of us in a shabby position.

Perhaps I am incorrect. I must admit I am a newbie. If I am incorrect, would someone please explain how the rest of us will benefit.

Best
rc
 

raze

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Wow.
I did not know that was ED's opinion on the subject.

...not quite sure I would agree with it, either...
Possibility of ASIC capability turns the entire matter over to the dragon,

or, is DASH already mined by ASIC's ?

Newbie.... I just don't know.

As many others did, I watched the dump, just before the halvening. And I watched the discovery of a new block by the antpool with sufficient time for mining shortly before the halvening.

IF the dragon controls manufacturing, and mining of altcoins, too ??? Gosh are the rest of us in a shabby position.

Perhaps I am incorrect. I must admit I am a newbie. If I am incorrect, would someone please explain how the rest of us will benefit.

Best
rc
There are 4 ASICs currently available: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/DOC/ASIC+Miner+Hardware

Apparently, there are plans to mitigate centralization without changing the algorithm, but not much information about what exactly it entails yet.

Another very important point to make about the Satoshi Roundtable was the very large issue with mining centralization in the Bitcoin space. When Satoshi originally invented Bitcoin, he did not anticipate the excessive mining centralization that has become a dominant force in the Bitcoin space. Due to this, we now have a small group of people that literally control the protocol consensus and their short term interests may be in conflict with the long term interests of other stakeholders, industry, users, etc. We definitely do not want our ecosystem to follow the same failed course and we definitely would have under the pooled ASIC mining paradigm. This is mainly because there are differences in efficiency that a miner can gain depending on where they live, which can give a huge advantage when their higher investment returns are compounded. Efficiencies such as cheaper labor, cheap or free electricity and even withholding newer advanced ASICs for their own mining operations, then selling them after they become less effective. After many iterations of these phenomenon in BTC we have come to a situation where the ones who have access to these advantages effectively control Bitcoin.

After hours of discussions, we believe we have found the solution to the unfair mining advantages that produce centralization around certain jurisdictions that control the production of ASICS. We will be releasing much more information about this soon, but are feverishly working on this project for v12.1. We’re going to be releasing much more information about this in the coming weeks; it’s going to be a giant advantage for the Dash project.
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/march-2016-budget-proposal.8198/#post-86929

We're planning on revealing a new type of proof of work model that resolves the centralized mining issues in Bitcoin. Exciting times
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/co...e_ceo_core_developers_may_be_bitcoins/d0po591
 

xjones

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These guys are pretty legit, listen to their interviews with Peter Todd, Jeff Garzik, Adam Back, Big Lambda, etc.
I think it depends whom you compare them to. If you've never heard any good interviewing, they might seem legit. I frequently listen to podcasts from BBC, NPR, PRI, and other sources, containing lots and lots of interviews, and compared to those interviewers, these guys are essentially incompetent.

A good interview should always be about the person being interviewed, not about the person doing the interviewing. That doesn't mean asking softball questions, but it does mean you don't keep interrrupting the guest every five seconds. It also means covering some ground rather than repeating the same questions ten times after you have an answer, whether you like the answer or not.

It's a most basic principle of good interviewing that you spend a little advance time learning about the subject of an interview. But these guys seemed completely unprepared, as if they had discovered dash just a few minutes before they began talking with Amanda. If they can't be bothered to do even a little reading about the subject of the interview before it begins, then I would not consider them legit.
 
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rustycase

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There are 4 ASICs currently available: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/DOC/ASIC+Miner+Hardware

Apparently, there are plans to mitigate centralization without changing the algorithm, but not much information about what exactly it entails yet.


https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/march-2016-budget-proposal.8198/#post-86929


https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/co...e_ceo_core_developers_may_be_bitcoins/d0po591
Thank you raze.
Obviously it would be best if I review the links you have presented before speaking my newbie observations further.

Best
rc
 
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Elokk

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I think it depends whom you compare them to. If you've never heard any good interviewing, they might seem legit. I frequently listen to podcasts from BBC, NPR, PRI, and other sources, containing lots and lots of interviews, and compared to those interviewers, these guys are essentially incompetent.

A good interview should always be about the person being interviewed, not about the person doing the interviewing. That doesn't mean asking softball questions, but it does mean you don't keep interrrupting the guest every five seconds. It also means covering some ground rather than repeating the same questions ten times after you have an answer, whether you like the answer or not.

It's a most basic principle of good interviewing that you spend a little advance time learning about the subject of an interview. But these guys seemed completely unprepared, as if they had discovered dash just a few minutes before they began talking with Amanda. If they can't be bothered to do even a little reading about the subject of the interview before it begins, then I would not consider them legit.
You listen to NPR, enough said
 

Elokk

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Dash was never touted as being ASIC-proof (at least not by anyone who knew what they were talking about). ASIC-resistant, yes, which it was. There was never any intent to avoid them forever.

Quote from Evan on March 27, 2014:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529570.msg5935102#msg5935102
Oh I am sorry, ASIC RESISTANT. Thanks for clearing that up technicality. I am sure everyone knows what I was referring to. No wonder everyone outside of the DASH community calls it "scammy"
 

HinnomTX

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The ASIC resistance was by design, and with a 2 year expected resistance (which became the case). It was never advertised by the developers as ASIC proof. For that feature, go read up on Vertcoin.

The creation of X11 was done intentionally to repeat Bitcoin's history, so that interest in Dash would build gradually by enticing miners to mine with CPUs, GPUs, FPGAs, and finally, ASICs.
 

rustycase

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The ASIC resistance was by design, and with a 2 year expected resistance (which became the case). It was never advertised by the developers as ASIC proof. For that feature, go read up on Vertcoin.

The creation of X11 was done intentionally to repeat Bitcoin's history, so that interest in Dash would build gradually by enticing miners to mine with CPUs, GPUs, FPGAs, and finally, ASICs.
I would like to mine with cpu/gpu.
Obviously a dated concept, in the real world.
...and I'm at 18c/kwhr... lol

Perhaps one day I'll buy a dusty Gridseed miner and drive it with a Pi...

YMMV
rc
 

rustycase

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@rusty You might like to keep an eye on Zcash.
Okay !
I shall research it shortly !

At the moment, the dragon is awakening to a warm, rainy day after a busy night depositing a few eggs that cost the rest of us a few percent.
I rarely know, until I look, only to discover I'm in recovery mode. :-(

I am interested in speculation, for entertainment value, if nothing else... So I'll investigate zcash. Presently, I'm even poking a stick at the zombie DAO !
Cruel, I know... I'm a lesser person for doing so... twisted entertainment... like watching a horror movie from hollywood.

Best
rc