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A Call for tungfa to Heed the Masternodes' Vote

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by amanda_b_johnson, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Well-known Member

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    Hello, everyone. Thanks for reading.

    I write today to express to you that I've happened upon a new challenge in this grand voting system of ours:

    What if the masternode network votes that one of its employees ought to perform a certain action, but that employee then refuses to do so?

    As you may recall, task #2 of my recently-passed proposal to make Dash's Youtube channel simply awesome reads:

    "Make YouTube.com/DashOrg the main, high-performing Dash channel by deleting the former channel (which is YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV). This will prevent splitting of views and subscriber counts, as well as preventing general confusion."

    Alas, though he acknowledges that the proposal has passed, tungfa tells me he has no intention of deleting YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV. I have no access to do so myself, either.

    This causes me to ask -- is the voting system just a symbolic ritual? Does it take after today's nation-states -- the "representative democracies" -- where people cast their votes for change, but change never actually happens?

    In short -- do masternode votes count, or not?

    I must say -- my choice to labor for the network is dependent upon the outcome of this challenge. Because if masternode votes don't actually count -- if employees like tungfa actually just do what they want, in spite of stakeholder preferences -- perhaps Dash is not what I believed it to be.

    Perhaps you say -- my goodness, it's just a YouTube channel. Not a big deal! And I agree with you -- it's just a YouTube channel.

    It is the precedent that concerns me. Dash bills itself as superior to Bitcoin in that Bitcoin's stakeholders are unable to express their preferences in a meaningful, binding way. A majority say they want a bigger block size, but they never get it.

    If a majority of Dash's stakeholders have voted "yes" on my proposal -- which they have -- and they don't actually get what they voted for -- which they currently are not -- I will only be able to conclude that Dash's decision-making system is no better than Bitcoin's. That it is fancier and more formal and more sophisticated -- and involves blockchain funding, which is nice. But that at the end of the day, masternode voting is just a ritual that doesn't actually guarantee a real-life outcome -- another Bitcoin in the making.

    If tungfa does not delete YouTube.com/DarkcoinTV, it will only hurt Dash's YouTube presence with its continued existence, as people will continue to end up on an inactive channel with a weird URL and no new videos. All the while the current channel YouTube.com/DashOrg has embarrassingly low view counts in the 5s and 10s, which can only be remedied by scouring the web and replacing old links with new (which I have already done for both Dash.org and DashPay.Atlassian.net to ensure all links are properly replaced -- I'm willing to assist anyone else with their own site, too). If this is how things remain, I will withdraw my proposal and ask that you downvote it.

    If, however, Dash's masternodes believe that their votes should actually count -- that the voting system is binding -- then I will know that Dash really is what I think it is, and I will remain on and give you a better YouTube channel than you ever hoped for. The loss of the view counts on the old channel will pale in comparison to the heights reached with the new channel.

    The power to persuade tungfa is now in your hands. I have done all that I can.

    Sincerely,
    Amanda B. Johnson
     
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  2. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Oh boy.

    /popcorn.

    I might add in a real post halfway through this thread, but I don't want to accidentally derail it...

    Let's see how this plays out...

    edit: since noone is biting. Might as well drop an opinion or two.

    From reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/4nia0c/a_call_for_tungfa_to_heed_the_masternodes_vote/
     
    #2 TheDashGuy, Jun 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
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  3. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    The only real power the Masternodes have is to fund and de-fund things. If tungfa does not comply, then the only real power the Masternodes would have at the moment is to stop paying him, which right now happens through the core team budget. But regardless of what the MN's can or cannot do, it would be against the spirit of the dash DGBB model for a paid core team member to blatantly disregard a very clear instruction from the MNs, especially if it is something relatively trivial like giving up a practically worthless YT channel. I would urge tungfa to reconsider, and if not, would urge the core team to seriously re-evaluate his status as a paid team member.
     
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  4. itscrazybro

    itscrazybro Active Member
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    There should be no argument here.

    Your proposal has passed @amanda_b_johnson so it is your right to do what the masternode's agreed with.

    @tungfa You are going to need to listen to the network here buddy. This has been voted on formerly and is now basically set in stone so even if you have a reason for not doing this, it shouldn't matter unless you create a proposal yourself to counter @amanda_b_johnson

    @amanda_b_johnson It is my understanding that this will not be a problem in the new system (12.1) as we will be voting on project managers whom if they do not listen to the network, then they will have their funding cut.
     
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  5. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Imo, based upon what little I think I know, all things prior to the switchover to DASH official name should now be archived up, packed away, and put in cold storage for some time in the future when someone may want to do research.
    Anything that may be an imediment to the newest, biggest, best DASH should be set aside so it does not distract.

    I remain confused about this 'employee' thing...
    Perhaps someone could direct me to where this is specifically detailed ???

    HUGE difference between 'employee' and 'contractor'.

    IMO, DASH most likely has 'contractors'.

    If anyone was unaware, having 'employees' opens the door to many, many pages of legislative acts.
    IMO, DASH should be structured to avoid this scenario.

    If a contractor does not perform tasks as directed, discharge for cause is straight-forward and direct.
    Replacement a simple task, ...Is there someone more competent available ??

    By golly I know none of the particular details ! Get a 2nd opinion !!!
    rc

    .
     
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  6. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Employees = blockchain contractors here.
     
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  7. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    You cannot force someone to do something, even if he is an employee.

    The only thing you can do is to ask again masternodes owners if they wish to fire the employee or to reduce his salary, because of his disobedience to your voted proposition.

    So stop whining, and if you think the disobedience is so grave, then ask masternodes owners again to vote whether they approve or not the employee's behavior. And if not ,what are the mesures they propose.

    This is again a tree like voting, and a voting with numbers. Dash needs a tree like voting. and voting with numbers.

    Do you agree with the employee's behavior?
    Yes-> end of voting
    no--> What measures do you want to take against him?
    ->fire him!(yes/no)
    ->reduce his salary (voting with numbers about the reduction of the salary)​
     
    #7 demo, Jun 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  8. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Hi guys
    I don't have an opinion about the Youtube channel itself just a couple of thoughts about the voting process that came to mind when I read this post:

    1. As a general rule it would be better to consider a budget proposal binding when the proposal voting cycle closes as masternode operators vote at different times during the month and approvals often change or new competing proposals come online, things like that.

    2. The spirit of the proposal that was made to the network clearly was for the creation of a new Dash Youtube show that I believe we are all very excited to see happen soon. If in any proposal like this, a specific sub-item turns out to be controversial, like whether or not to delete the old Youtube channel, then a second proposal could be submitted just asking whether the network thinks the old channel should be deleted or not. This way the nodes get to be more specific in their intention and we all achieve our goal of following the decentralized decision making process more accurately.


    Just my thoughts. What do you guys think?
     
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  9. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    That's what I would/hope to expect...
    Someone keeps using the incorrect word...

    I kinda like 'workers'.
    [​IMG]
    It's a Get r' Dun kinda thing.

    There's no argument about it... when they are unable to work for the common goal, they are set aside...

    Best
    rc
     
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  10. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Yup.
    And what that means is, the proposal was not written in specific detail.

    Best
    rc
     
  11. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Just to clarify, I do think the proposal was clear in its intention to delete the old channel. It is very clearly stipulated in the description. I guess what I was saying is that in cases where there is multiple items that are part of one proposal. If no controversy surfaces about any of the sub items that are beyond the spirit of the main proposal then there is no need for any clarification.

    But in cases where there is controversy after the fact about a minor item within a bigger proposal, then it would be wise to submit the previously perceived to be minor item again to the network as an independent question, so that you can give the network the opportunity to be more accurate in its choice. I actually volunteer to donate the 5 DASH necessary for the submission if it turns out to be necessary in this case.
     
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  12. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Yes but why are we wasting the masternodes on such trivial stuff as @yidakee has pointed out to me many times in the past, along with many others. Tungfa just needs to be relieved of his decision making "abilities" in situations such as this. Thats half the point here.

    I agree though, in general we can refocus our goals via the MN's voting on things and/or people just agreeing in general as well.
     
  13. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Again. this is a tree like voting. A tree like voting is a voting where the result of a vote depends on the result of a previous vote. Dash needs such a thing to be implemented asap.

    The more branches the tree like voting has, the more specific the masternode owners can be in their intentions. So whenever someone adds a tree like vote and not a flat vote, this means that he respects masternode owners, and he does not want to trick them in the details.

    Here is a simple tree like voting for the problem of the employee disobedience:


     
    #13 demo, Jun 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  14. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    You are ignoring the fact that one single person (tungfa) is causing this to be happening in the first place. Amanda made her case and is correct in doing so and such we need to move along, not argue with someone who thinks "he knows better" all the damn time.
     
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  15. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    We had an exhaustive conversation about this point in the Dash Nation Consensus thread. It was made clear that Masternodes indeed have no power to decide anything except for budget concerns.

    It was said that we are not ready for true decentralized governance in this way, and that eventually we will move more to this type of system where the Masternodes have a power over policy as well as budget.

    The Masternodes do have an option though, to relieve Tungfa of his monthly Dash stipend. I personally would not want to do this, as Tungfa works harder than almost everyone on this project, and even if that wasn't the case, he falls under the core team umbrella. If we wanted him defunded, we would have to defund the whole core team. That's not an option, IMO, as they as a whole are doing a fantastic job.

    These types of conversations will continually come up as we grow and attract more people. I have these conversations all the time on Twitter, that's why it's important to me. Maybe we'll make some more progress in that regard through this.

    @amanda_b_johnson Here is the link to the discussion, FYI:
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-nation-consensus-discussion.8759/

    EDIT: Maybe we should also wait for @tungfa to state his case as well before we crucify him... :)
     
    #15 TaoOfSatoshi, Jun 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  16. kot

    kot Administrator
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    Hi All,
    I would like to ask all of you to step back and think broader about the entire situation. Without personal attacks.
    This particular case is very tricky because the proposal itself was about the creation of a new channel - which seems to be very attractive activity with potential advantages. (Unfortunately) part of the proposal was deletion of the old channel.
    I am pretty sure that most of the votes were given for creation of the new, attractive content but almost no one cared about the old one during the voting process.

    Personally I do not have an opinion on this particular case at the moment (I would need to know more about potential pros and cons of deletion of the old channel). However I have a general opinion and I would like to share it.
    The old channel and its content was created as a collective effort of many people, who dedicated their time and talent for Dash. They still own copyrights to the content and it is their intellectual property. It is also hours or days of their work that would potentially disappear with all deleted links (together with entire history of the channel, likes and comments). Deletion of this old channel looks a little disrespectful to these people and their efforts.

    It is a controversial topic to me. In my opinion it should not happen that one proposal erases the efforts of the other people.
    I see some valid points on both sides and I feel like there is no good solution here. I would propose to have a call, consider pros and cons and make the best possible decision to resolve this case (best for Dash).

    This case also shows that our system is not perfect (yet) and requires improvements.
     
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  17. Macrochip

    Macrochip Active Member

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    Nothing needs to be deleted. Deactivate the account and all videos will become inaccessible to anyone but the owner(s). They will permanently remain on YouTube servers ready to be re-activated anytime, retaining all copyrights etc.
    I speak from personal experience: I have several original videos "invisible" on YouTube and no one can watch them unless I choose to allow it (namely by re-activating my account or give out a secret link iirc).
     
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  18. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    This is the greatest compromise. I love it! Everyone wins. Thanks @Macrochip.
     
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  19. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Back to the worker bees again...
    https://jenasol.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/honeybees1.jpg
    This thread is the buzz within the hive !
    Of course !

    I don't view this as a 'sink or swim' issue, yet it's good education to see how all this shakes out !
    Patton was left to set on the bench when the PTB felt the need to do so... Then called back into the action.

    As said above... this is tedious bs for the MN voters to deal with.

    They can't get buried in the small details or nothing would get done.

    Certainly a good indication there should be a project manager for significant things funded...
    Or, is That tungfa's position ???

    Best
    rc
     
  20. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Well-known Member

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    Hello, everyone, thanks for the input.

    @Macrochip: thank you for the suggestion. Deactivation is certainly an option not yet put forth. That sounds grand. I'll propose it to the network, as Evan and others have suggested.

    To clarify for @Minotaur and @kot: the proposal is not about creating a *new* channel. At this time, two channels exist which are exact replicas of one another in terms of content: youtube.com/darkcointv, and youtube.com/dashorg. They are replicas. Because they are replicas, they are splitting one another's view counts and subscribers, which makes both look worse.

    And @Minotaur, I'll take that 5 Dash reimbursement. Please send to Xy1jmkj55JwtAEWjAaHtqH64NJqAfy489c. I'll make the proposal shortly.
     
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  21. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    I can see why you have a man-servant. :cool: Wheew! You sure know how to whip things into shape...I'm glad you're on our side. Dash Nation became stronger today, thanks to you. :D
     
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  22. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Well-known Member

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  23. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Well-known Member
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    https://www.youtube.com/user/DarkcoinTV/ currently has:
    -- 953 subscribers and has produced
    -- 124,559 views

    It would be a shame to lose these people. While I am not sure if the DarkcoinTV has Creator Studio / YT partners status but if so, there's a way of re-directing an old channel to a new channel. "You can have the shortened version of your custom URL redirect your audience to another channel. Just put the URL you'd like to have your shortened URL redirect to in the Redirect URL field."
    source: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2976814?hl=en

    An alternative, if DarkcoinTV channels does not have the Redirect URL option and if Tungfa is inclined to torture himself, would be this:

    -- go to setting / Annotations;
    -- create a BIG speech bubble annotations, 20 or so seconds with a LINK to a new channel / duplicate video;
    -- click on a Link;
    -- ADD a new channel (or, better, video) link;
    -- do NOT click on "Open Link in a new window";
    -- Apply changes.This way or another it might not be a bad idea to find a way to preserve the value old channel represents, instead of just abruptly deleting it because, ATM, we love Amanda more than we love Tungfa :)

    EDIT: buster (on slack) posted a valid question about the "bad name" Darkcoin associated with the channel in question. Here's is the reply to his concerns:

    The name of the DarkcoinTV channel can be changed also.
    source: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2657964?hl=en

    A bit of PINA, to make these changes, but the process would be a win-win. You save the channel, replace the "bad name" and re-direct users to a new channel that is new and has comparatively much smaller number of subscribers / views. (178 subscribers & 3,877 views vs. 953 subscribers & 124,559 views)
     
    #23 GreyGhost, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  24. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    BINGO.

    Back to your homes everyone, movie is over.
     
  25. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Well-known Member

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    Clever thought, GreyGhost. Unfortunately, a redirected URL has no bearing on any of the three points listed in the new proposal at http://dashwhale.org/budget. Good thought, but no dice.

    953 subscribers is wonderful, and it can be re-achieved in not that much time, I imagine.

    I'm going offline now to retire to my faraday crypt.
     
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  26. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Well-known Member
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    Your own 8,200 subscribers & 551,206 views on The Daily Decrypt certainly support your optimism. Only that 953 existing subscribers to the "old" channel in question, IMHO, also deserve to be informed why is the channel they subscribed to suddenly gone.
     
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  27. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    hey there
    ok, 1st of all, we were having (starting) a discussion about this on slack, but it seems that you are set in your ways and do not want to discuss this in person and prefer to do it in public ? well, lets do it here then

    the budget is voted in, but not paid out. Meaning in a month time a lot can happen and as far as i see it this 'contract' is not confirmed = hence not paid out.
    saying that means to me we have time to "talk this through", (what is the best approach, discuss with the people who run the YT's, and such,...)
    i gave you guys access to the New YT channel already, as requested.

    I was trying to have a talk with you and pete about the old YT channel,
    in my believe , erasing it would be a big mistake as the links associated with that channel have been shared far far around on the internet (english, but specially in Russian and multiple other languages). We are still having a ton of new comments and views on the old "Dash: What is Dash? = P15E10 " + other videos
    Erasing the old YT channel will kill all links (obviously) with it, we worked very hard to share these links all over the internet, they are used in 'old' publications and articles, OP's of threads, webpages, forums and all over the shop. We have no idea where (obviously) so we will not be able to change them. The idea always was to keep the old YT open (or even better hidden) that the links stay live, even though we migrated to another channel.
    Why kill them, if we can just simply hide the channel and keep the links alive ?
    (alex-ru pointed the hiding option out here https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dashs-very-own-youtube-show.9107/#post-96294 )
    Shouldn't we use that old YT to "migrate" people to the New Channel ? (that is what we are trying now with the migrate video)
    Killing it and starting new is definitely easier, but would be a huge loss, as we have 950 subscribers already (i know in the YT world that is not much/ but for us it is).

    The old channel now has "We migrated / Please follow us to..." video posted all over (Tx to alex ru), we had the idea of changing all descriptions of videos to "We migrated / Please follow us to...", i am answering since weeks to all comments with "We migrated / Please follow us to..."
    (i would suggest to set all videos to private except the "Please Migrate' one- that still watched people from old links but tells them in channel and description where to find us now)

    I am NOT ignoring any Masternote vote, i am trying to have a discussion with you guys what is the best approach
    that is all, if i broke some kind of network law here, sorry i am not aware, happy to fix whatever is broken

    you have to understand that i am a bit protective of that old channel as a lot of work went into it,
    proposals voted in are great, but at the same time somebody has to step up and 'protect' our infrastructure, erasing is erasing, if that is done , it is done.
    Proposals come and go, Dash will still be here (if the proposal idea was good or not) :rolleyes:
    that is all i am saying, and was trying to talk though with you guys on slack
     
    #27 tungfa, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  28. halso

    halso Active Member

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    Hi Amanda, i love your work. You will be a great asset to Dash. I used all my masternodes to vote for your proposal.

    It would be great if you could come to a compromise with tungfa. To be honest, i didnt fully understand the issues with the old channel when i voted.

    I think a compromise would be the best way forward for Dash.

    Thansk
     
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  29. Ryan Taylor

    Ryan Taylor Well-known Member
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    My thoughts:

    1) I completely disagree with @amanda_b_johnson that this proposal has even passed yet. We are still at the very beginning of the July proposal cycle and I can tell you that those individuals that have not voted yet are probably the MOST LIKELY to have doubts or concerns about her original proposal (thus haven't voted yet). In my mind, a proposal doesn't pass until the voting deadline. Otherwise, we risk situations in which a proposal owner lobbies two whales, submits their proposal, gets the two whales to vote immediately, and "boom!" you have a "passed" proposal. I haven't even fully read the comments on your first proposal, let alone made a decision or voted. What about my vote? And the votes of everyone else that is taking the time to carefully consider your proposal? Are there not enough votes "in the wild" that could swing the voting the other way? What about competing proposals that might otherwise de-fund yours that aren't even submitted yet?

    2) I agree with the comments here that most people probably voted FOR the content you intend to create, rather than to DEACTIVATE the old account (which is a very minor component).

    3) It seems incredibly unlikely that in less than 48 hours or whatever since the proposal "passed", Amanda and Pete have exhausted all other options with @tungfa or fully considered the implications of an issue that was debated NOT just by tungfa, but by many other volunteers / community members as to the pros/cons... the fact that he is forced to respond to her above and that Amanda is already responding positively toward many other options proposed by other community members indicates to me that there was a rush to vilify him and pit the community on him to instantly produce the outcome she wanted, rather than through good old-fashioned dialogue, problem-solving, and compromise. I would encourage everyone to take a deep breath, realize we are all on the same team here and that this deactivation is a complex issue, and put down the pitchforks... there is a better way forward!

    4) I don't actually think this issue should be this explosive, nor is resolving it urgent, so I don't understand the rush to resolve it instantly and without dialogue. If Amanda feels that she can attract many times more subscribers than the old channel - and I don't doubt her abilities to do so - that would be great! Rather than counting our chickens before they hatch, why don't we wait to see her produce those viewers and THEN do what we need to do to shutter the old channel. The fact remains that as of this moment, we have more subscribers in the old channel. If she can change that for us, let's all agree to make changes after we have say doubled our old channel's viewership or whatever the right viewership number is.

    5) Even in cases where the network votes for something, that doesn't make it gospel, especially in cases where it was a sub-part of another proposal, where we might need to tease out the intent of the network. Also, the masses are not always as informed as the person responsible for that aspect of the project, who has lived and breathed a workstream for months or years. We need to provide those workstream owners the opportunity and respect for the work that they do here to come forward with their judgment and rationale in response before we allow the network to make an ill-informed unintended mistake. In my mind, that is part of that expert's JOB... to defend the network from making a mistake. I'm NOT saying that deactivating the old YouTube channel is a mistake... I'm not well informed enough either way at this point. But I am commenting on the process that is taking place here. Tungfa shouldn't be called out as "disregarding" the network when all he is trying to do is ensure everyone is as informed as possible BEFORE taking action, which is absolutely appropriate and should be expected of him. It is clear to me that this is a complex issue that many people have thought long and hard about... even if we end up (as a network) reaching a different conclusion than tungfa and others reached on their own, to expect him to blindly implement - without protest or debate - literally ANYTHING the network asks for no matter how "stupid" for lack of a better word, is not in anyone's best interest. It's simply a fact that in all human endeavors, you need leadership, which sometimes involves making difficult decisions or taking the time to persuade others of your point of view if you believe in it. We should expect nothing less of our core team. I would be far more concerned if tungfa followed the vote blindly and didn't defend what he thought was right.
     
    #29 Ryan Taylor, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  30. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    Well I agree that it's not absolutely urgent, but I do think it was important enough to warrant a vote. MN ops can always change their vote as well, so it's not like anyone is trying to (or is able to) ram something through quickly. Let's look at this as a test of how our DGBB influences things like this. As I mentioned in the other thread, this is only the first of many such things which are bound to happen. Let's start learning how to work through these now while the stakes are still low.


    Also a note about those subs. Look at the view counts on all the videos that were uploaded over the last month. It's like 20 views apiece. Very few people are watching those videos because they are subbed. And anyone who was subbed and actually watched the videos would have seen the video about the new YT channel so at least that part of it I really don't see as a big deal.
     
    #30 TroyDASH, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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