TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
It has become increasingly in-vogue to claim mining isn't producing value for the Dash network.
Has everyone forgotten why Dash has mining?
- Thread starter TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
- Start date
No, I will explain in the comments. No one is looking to move away from mining, however, the Dash network is over paying for mining since some of the security is moved up into the masternode network, also from v20 onwards, the entropy from miners will no longer be used, taken instead from the masternodes. Due to these things, it makes sense to taper the reward paid to them to better remunerate them for the value they bring to the network.
Now regarding the state actor bit, my biggest concern with going full POS is that the pussy MNOs would not mine some TXes eg in the case OFAC deemed some as forbidden, this is because MNO are 'soft' targets, due to the unfortunate case that masternodes are run over the clearnet and some MNOs host in large data centres and dox themselves to various entities, worse some MNO approx one third outsource the entire business of running a Mnode to a third party who you can absolutely bet would comply with any 3 or 4 letter agency's demands!
In contrast however, anyone can mine a block and place it on the network even over TOR or VPN anonymously and that block will be chainlocked and forever mined upon, the MNOs can't stop it and this is the true benefit of mining and why it will never go away completely in Dash. Now for this feature to work, it does not require any particular amount of the block reward, it works with 50% of the reward or with 10% of the reward just the same, so why are we paying more?
Now regarding the state actor bit, my biggest concern with going full POS is that the pussy MNOs would not mine some TXes eg in the case OFAC deemed some as forbidden, this is because MNO are 'soft' targets, due to the unfortunate case that masternodes are run over the clearnet and some MNOs host in large data centres and dox themselves to various entities, worse some MNO approx one third outsource the entire business of running a Mnode to a third party who you can absolutely bet would comply with any 3 or 4 letter agency's demands!
In contrast however, anyone can mine a block and place it on the network even over TOR or VPN anonymously and that block will be chainlocked and forever mined upon, the MNOs can't stop it and this is the true benefit of mining and why it will never go away completely in Dash. Now for this feature to work, it does not require any particular amount of the block reward, it works with 50% of the reward or with 10% of the reward just the same, so why are we paying more?
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
You seemingly don't understand how POW offers anti-state attack properties. Let me explain.
To take over the network, an attacker would need to control a significant proportion of MNs and Miners. With these controlled, they can change the code to fit their needs (neuter the network of its interesting properties and/or censoring transactions/transaction types they don't like).
Controling the MNs represents a finite (albeit high cost). Once you purchase enough Dash, you can capture the MN network by owning 60%+ of the MNs. Again expensive to do, but if you have a "printer goes brrr" you can accomplish this. Nothing can challenge this dominance.
Controlling the Miners represents an infinite cost. Money needs to be continuously spent on mining (electricity, hardware, etc.) for as long as the attack persists. You want this cost to be as high as possible. A state would go bankrupt attempting to attack the network. This is massively significant difference between POS and POW. This is why lowering the payout for mining (and subsequently lowering the cost of this attack) is a terrible idea.
Dash's main differentiator right now, is that it is configured to be highly resistant to attack. Let's not fuck this up for any reason, especially ones from wannabe economists.
No, that's not how it works, if all the miners updated to a malicious code base, the MNs would not chainlock those blocks, but would instead continue to chainlock the correct chain, since exchanges need a CLSIG and run an official version of the dashd, the government fork would be completely invalidated and have nowhere to sell their coins.
The v19.0 Hardfork stall is an example of bad code being mined but not chainlocked.
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
I'm not sure if I should be surprised that you and Angew have such poor reading comprehension. The attack would be targeted at both Miners AND Masternodes. That is why chainlocks is the most secure in the world.
It becomes a question of cost for controlling both elements of the network. MNs are a finite large cost and Mining is an infinite large cost. These costs should remain high to insure network security against central bank backed attackers.
It becomes a question of cost for controlling both elements of the network. MNs are a finite large cost and Mining is an infinite large cost. These costs should remain high to insure network security against central bank backed attackers.
But conversely, if someone has a large percentage of MNs, they could simply run custom-compiled code to disable whatever MN-provided services they didn't like or lock only blocks/transactions they preferred - without breaking consensus rules. Ultimately I doubt a state-level actor would attack that way, but it would be a bad situation to be in regardless.
Indeed, but the OP is derailing the conversation with this make believe nonsense anyway, in this reality right now, the miners are overpaid for the work they do, it's indisputable..
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
Explicitly - what is make believe non-sense. Expose yourself.
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
Exactly. You are not serious people. Your opinions are worthless.
This scenario will never happen because X11 can be GPU mined and I have a GPU and will mine for Dash at a loss to keep the block chain rolling.
vampyren
Member
Even so we need more than 1 Dash warrior to keep the chain alive, unless we go fully PoS + MN like say pivx.
Also considering the price for GPU's today i doubt anyone would waste their GPU unless they make big profit. Hell i wouldn't. My 3090 and 4090 cost an arm and a leg and i want them for gaming unless i earn allot which you don't considering electricity cost and hw cost.
I don't think we should discourage the miners we have! We don't want a chain with huge mempool like BTC today! And from what i see the hashrate is already taking a nose dive at the levels of 2022: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/hashrate-dash-bsvbrc.html#1y
Now i don't know exactly how profitable they are today so you might be also right in reducing the reward but what i'm saying is that we need the miners.
I check the price and X11 cost around 9k!
I see miners earn around 9$ a day so that is almost 3 years ROI!
I would not call that a very good investment today. That would be even worst with GPU as they are not as optimized for X11 i assume.
It won't be just me mining the ghost chain, I don't know why you are getting bent out of shape over this, there are plenty of examples of ghost chains that are still mined, Dash will do just fine!
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
Junior87 said it beautifully on dashcentral
I think a large part of the mining incentive comes from that you could exchange hardware and electricity investment into crypto that could flow to anywhere in the world, anonymously. This is especially useful for those countries that have capital control
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
that isn't producing value for the network. That is producing value for Miners. There is a difference.
The value for the network is mining produces infinite costs that would bankrupt an attacker over a long enough period of time.
rion
Active member
Come on Incubator Weekly. I’d be happy to give you a platform and have a friendly debate on this issue.
TheNetworkIsBiggerThanYou
Active member
I have a platform right here that is larger than incubator weekly. Either you can address my very discrete and coherent point or you can use laugh emojis like a troll and not be taken seriously.
I am describing a very specific attack that POW networks are immune to. XCKD and his moron cheerleading squad then pointed to a different attack to somehow disprove what I am saying.
The vote is 6 in favor of acknowledging the importance of POW and 2 against.
Come on this forum. I'd be happy to give you a platform and have a friendly debate on this issue.
rion
Active member
I’m more efficient using a vocal medium than text. I don’t have time to debate back and forth over text.
My guess is you’re focused on a narrow, theoretical, technical resistance to state level attacks, and are not considering social attacks. Mining does not make a project resistant to state level attacks. That’s a laughable claim, which is why I laughed at it.