Dash needs new leadership and direction

[GrandMasterDash]

I think you are can't see the forest for the trees... Evolution is all about privacy, instant transactions, security and decentralisation. But there is entire process to get to there (and it is just the beginning).

You criticize fiat gateways focus... in my opinion you are simply not able to see the strategic value of this project.
Without fiat gateways Dash will stay a toy for geeks. We could build 100 new, shiny technologies but if Dash is not easily available and exchangeable to ordinary people it is useless (they simply have fiats not Dash). So yes, it is important to have this focus (and it is not forever). But if you think that it is the only focus (obsession), you are wrong. Read this carefully: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/april-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.8913/

I do see the goal, I just don't agree with it. You want to see a "better" bitcoin and you think following a similar path to bitcoin is both essential and urgent. Seven years down the line, plenty of gateways, where is bitcoin? I've heard every excuse imaginable, playing it both ways... "it's going to the moon" but "Rome wasn't built in a day" blah blah blah

I'm not saying fiat gateways are wholly bad, but I am saying some balance is needed, and right now there's too much emphasis on fiat. Dark Send was attractive because it was different to bitcoin. Now we're going to let the security of MNs take a back seat because fiat and the inevitable KYC is flavour of the month.

 

[crowning]

...Some ideas...

I don't reply on one of your postings in particular, I just want to post some general information to think about:

1. A blockchain based technology, even when it seems to run stable for years, is a VERY fragile technology. Even minor changes/additions can completely break it. $40 millions market cap is some serious money.
   
2. There are many ideas, but only a limited number of people are actually capable to implement them. Most of them work for other crypto-currencies. The number of people who can AND want to work on Dash is small. And they are not driven by money. And a day only has 24 hours. So you have to set priorities. And priorities can change over time.
   
3. A lot of ideas sound obvious and straightforward, however they are a pain to implement, or will break other important things, or slow down everything significantly, or are just not possible to implement at all.
4. Blockchain size, even when not for Dash and not now, WILL be a problem somewhere in the future. The more things we use the blockchain for, the bigger is grows. Did you ever sync a Bitcoin wallet from scratch?

In 2014 I had a LOT of ideas for Dash, especially for the UI which I absolutely not liked.
But nobody had the spare time to implement them. And money can't buy time.
So I did it myself. I think I have roughly implemented 10% of the ideas I had, 40% I tried but learned that they would break other things/make things very slow/nobody would need them/pick your poison, and the remaining 50% are in my "ToDo" folder.

Believe me, I would LOVE to try every idea I come up with, and everything others come up with.
But I can't...

 

[demo]

I don't reply on one of your postings in particular, I just want to post some general information to think about:

1. A blockchain based technology, even when it seems to run stable for years, is a VERY fragile technology. Even minor changes/additions can completely break it. $40 millions market cap is some serious money.
   
2. There are many ideas, but only a limited number of people are actually capable to implement them. Most of them work for other crypto-currencies. The number of people who can AND want to work on Dash is small. And they are not driven by money. And a day only has 24 hours. So you have to set priorities. And priorities can change over time.
   
3. A lot of ideas sound obvious and straightforward, however they are a pain to implement, or will break other important things, or slow down everything significantly, or are just not possible to implement at all.
4. Blockchain size, even when not for Dash and not now, WILL be a problem somewhere in the future. The more things we use the blockchain for, the bigger is grows. Did you ever sync a Bitcoin wallet from scratch?

In 2014 I had a LOT of ideas for Dash, especially for the UI which I absolutely not liked.
But nobody had the spare time to implement them. And money can't buy time.
So I did it myself. I think I have roughly implemented 10% of the ideas I had, 40% I tried but learned that they would break other things/make things very slow/nobody would need them/pick your poison, and the remaining 50% are in my "ToDo" folder.

Believe me, I would LOVE to try every idea I come up with, and everything others come up with.
But I can't...

I dont know of what ideas you are talking about, but the universal dividend and a Web of trust is already there, implemented in the blockchain.

https://github.com/duniter

The proof of importance that encourages transactions, and the proof of identity is also there, implemented in the blockchain.

https://github.com/NewEconomyMovement

We have Just to go there, and cut and paste their code into dash code. But even if we do it, who is going to merge our effort?

Dont tell me to fork, this is not a solution, fork is a failure because it weakens the community. The solution is to vote for the person we trust him to merge the code, let it be Evan or whoever. Vote is unique in dash, you cannot find it in duniter or in Nem. Vote is dash's strength.

 

[UdjinM6]

...
Unfortunately , as long as the majority of the core team and of the masternode owners are greedy geeks, by their actions they also invite this kind of people. People who want to earn fast fiat money, whithout carring about dash's future. This mentality leads dash coin directrly into the cliff, into the recycle bin of history.
...

Well, hello 20 days old account and let me tell you that you have literally no idea what you are talking about. Any of core team members could earn 10x more in fiat simply working for some company as a specialist as most people usually do. At least I can say this for myself comparing the salary on my last job and amount of Dash I earn here. It's been 1.5 years for me here and I can hardly call it a huge capital gain, neither I can call it an easy or fast money. At the same time masternode owners risk their actual money putting them into collaterals and providing service for network which might fail at any moment - even though it's 2 years old, it's still very young and could be quite fragile so they have to be wise when they vote for smth. Trust me, throwing mud at people who are doing something won't get you anywhere. Yes, they are not doing 100% right things all the time, no one does, but at least they try their best. You don't like how they do it maybe? Think you can do it better? Do it! You are very welcome to amaze us with your performance.

 

[demo]

Well, hello 20 days old account and let me tell you that you have literally no idea what you are talking about. Any of core team members could earn 10x more in fiat simply working for some company as a specialist as most people usually do. At least I can say this for myself comparing the salary on my last job and amount of Dash I earn here. It's been 1.5 years for me here and I can hardly call it a huge capital gain, neither I can call it an easy or fast money. At the same time masternode owners risk their actual money putting them into collaterals and providing service for network which might fail at any moment - even though it's 2 years old, it's still very young and could be quite fragile so they have to be wise when they vote for smth. Trust me, throwing mud at people who are doing something won't get you anywhere. Yes, they are not doing 100% right things all the time, no one does, but at least they try their best. You don't like how they do it maybe? Think you can do it better? Do it! You are very welcome to amaze us with your performance.

I call majority greedy, because you do not respect future dash generations. The way you code, is the way "lets get all the dash money now, and dont take into account new comers". This is greed.

Implement a universal dividand, implement a basic income, make dash symmetric in space-time, then I take back my accusations about greed. Or at least, if you dont want to implement it, or if you cant, for God's sake vote for it, and in that case I will take back my accusations too.

 

[UdjinM6]

I call majority greedy, because you do not respect future dash generations. The way you code, is the way "lets get all the dash money now, and dont take into account new comers". This is greed.

Implement a universal dividand, implement a basic income, make dash symmetric in space-time, then I take back my accusations about greed. Or at least, if you dont want to implement it, or if you cant, for God's sake vote for it, and in that case I will take back my accusations too.

Yes, I have no respect for so called "future generations" in the way you put it. You can blame me for that probably but I think that because they've done nothing so far they don't deserve a duff. Again, I put my time and my money and I think I deserve some reward for my efforts as well as anyone else who put his/her time and/or money into Dash improvement be it code, promotion, acceptance, etc etc. It's as simple as it is: put some efforts to gain some reward, otherwise - no efforts (no risk), no reward. And no, it's not greed. It's called incentive and it's fundamental principle that cannot be removed from crypto-currency just because someone wants some kind of symmetry or someone think it's unfair or smth like that.

Next. Basic income doesn't mean you get money from nowhere, it means someone else is paying you by paying higher taxes. Or central bank of your country is printing money so everyone else is paying you through the inflation. While this (imo) ugly logic could be implemented in some countries, it doesn't make any sense in Dash at all imo - we are not building any kind of state and we are not printing money. We are building digital money - a fast, secure, easy to use payment network to transfer value anywhere in the world without any boundaries. And no, no money are printed here for nothing though it might look otherwise at first sight. Tokens issued by network are paid:
- to miners for securing network,
- to masternodes for providing their services
- to proposal submitters for implementing smth for Dash.
No single entity gets Dash for free. Even faucets giving you "free" coins either earn some money for ads you watched or they simply "earn" attention for a coin itself.
And there are no taxes and I doubt we want some here. There are fees though but they are paid to miners for including transactions into blocks (which is a different kind of service comparing to securing network).

Getting both pieces together: start giving money to someone ("future generations") for free (at real) and the value of network tokens will be effectively nullified because you destroy incentive. That's exactly what one should do if he wants to see everything falls apart.

"Let's get all the dash money now, and dont take into account new comers". That's simply not true - http://dash.org.ru/pages/emission.php. There is a lot of time for "future generations" to come and do their work to earn some Dash. Everyone is welcome to participate, just start mining, run a masternode, submit a proposal, provide some service etc.

Voted "no", obviously.

 

[bertlebbert]

Wow, I remember a couple of past 'meltdowns', but this time - this 'new' persona - really takes the cake...
demo? short for demolition?

 

[raganius]

@GrandMasterDash I respect and admire you, as you've always been an important and sensible member of this community. Your concerns are justifiable and pertinent, and very opportune.

DASH is changing a lot. And I have been feeling quite uncomfortable with it. Not because of the changes in itself, but because of a strange sensation that the community is falling appart.

I know that Evan is faithful to the community, and I am sure that he is doing his best for DASH. The only failure, in my opinion, is "distance": It feels like Evan keeps himself "distanced" from us. I am not sure if "distanced" is the correct word here, but what I mean is that Evan is not "present" (ostensive).

At first it was ok, as the community used to be much more harmonious (maybe homogeneous), was smaller... DASH was "smaller". But now, many things are happening at the same time, some things are good, some not so much, and the community has developed, and now it is much more complex. Fights are becoming frequent (and that is normal in a complex community).

Evan's lack of "direct contact" with the community causes a great deal of anxiety, as we remain "blind" (not knowing what is going on).

Anyway. This community is divided by a new paradigm: self-governance

• It aspires to be "headless" (I mean, it aims to dispense the figure of a leader: the community wants to be its own guide) - that's why, I believe, Evan keeps himself distant (he respects our "self-determination", as is seems);
• But it still needs (and demands) someone guiding ourselves - that's why Evan simply decides (as decisions are necessary).

This duality is exactly what gives us this scary feeling of something wrong. And this is the reason, for example, I prefer not to worry too much with what is going on here anymore (or else I'd go crazy lol).

It's a tough situation: we want more voice, but we are not being able to do it in a intelligible manner (there is too much noise - but how to solve this noise problem, as it is natural when so many ideas, opinions and proposals are being brought at the same time).

Maybe what we need is a step back:

• The community needs to accept that we still need a ostensive leadership (and Evan should not be scared of being be more present, thus allowing a more direct contact with the community).
• The "governance" solution should be seen with a different perspective, and reinstalled in an adapted manner, taking into consideration our recent (and rich) experiences.

I am still of the opinion that the governance should be as simple as possible, untill we are trully ready and comfortable to give another step further.

I hope I was able to express myself clearly (I hope I made sense).

 

[kot]

I just made an interesting exercise. I tried to imagine what would happen with the project, when Evan and entire (mindless/greedy/useless) core team resigns and leaves the work to all forum-based "visionaries" (last times there are so many of them)...

 

[bertlebbert]

I just made an interesting exercise. I tried to imagine what would happen with the project, when Evan and entire (mindless/greedy/useless) core team resigns and leaves the work to all forum-based "visionaries" (last times there are so many of them)...

LOL, and how did that work out, having the lunatics run the asylum?

 

[demo]

I just made an interesting exercise. I tried to imagine what would happen with the project, when Evan and entire (mindless/greedy/useless) core team resigns and leaves the work to all forum-based "visionaries" (last times there are so many of them)...

Do you want me to try it?

We do not make assumptions. Propositions is what we are making. We do not accept the core team to arrive suddently carrying the ten commandments, and command us. If there is some of you having the mentality of the slave who waits to be commanded, please try to understand that this is not all people's mentality. So the procedure of specs production should be tottaly reversed. Small decisions should be put into polls, and these polls should depend eachother. For example:
Should we go to France? Yes/No/Other

|________result No/Other----> end
|________result Yes---> Should we go by plane? Yes/No/Other
|________result Yes---> Should we stay in a Hotel? Yes/No/Other

|________result Yes-----> In a double room? Yes/No/Other​

From that tree of polls, the specs will be extracted automatically, according to the votes of the people.

 

[demo]

Yes, I have no respect for so called "future generations" in the way you put it. You can blame me for that probably but I think that because they've done nothing so far they don't deserve a duff.

How can they do something? They havent heard about dash the time you started coining, even some of them they are not born yet!!!

I think you dont understand well the concept of the symmetry in space-time. Symmetry in space-time means that the same amount of work should result the same amount of dash, means also giving the same chances for everyone when mining. Do you think that the efford of the persons that initially started to mine dash (when mining was easy) deserves that value? These were not people who coded, they were just miners, they just put the code into their computer, and they gain dash very easy, whithout working.

As long as dash is limited in number, and as long as many people are expected to arrive in dash , in order to respect the symmetry in space-time we have to give some dash to newcomers. If we dont, new generations will not trust this "old guy's coin" and they will not do transactions with it. And this will be the end of dash, because money is above all trust and transactions. Dash should be money , should have transactions, it should not be a collecting value of old guys, like bitcoin, diamonds, coins, gold or stamps.

 

[yidakee]

This is the 4th thread where quantum mechanics are are used to establish that Dash is an existencial black hole.

.

 

[balu]

I dont know of what ideas you are talking about, but the universal dividend and a Web of trust is already there, implemented in the blockchain.

https://github.com/duniter

The proof of importance that encourages transactions, and the proof of identity is also there, implemented in the blockchain.

https://github.com/NewEconomyMovement

We have Just to go there, and cut and paste their code into dash code. But even if we do it, who is going to merge our effort?

Sure, copy-paste works just like that. Oh my..
If you really have no idea, why make a clown of yourself?

There is a reason why Dash governance was created the way it is. If you'd like to have a direct influence on the direction of the development, you either need to DO something as @UdjinM6 already explained, or you need to be financially invested (owning MNs, thus being able to vote). You are trying a third approach, which as you can see, will fail. The unwritten code of conduct in this project should be clear: these are the two commonly agreed ways to contribute and influence decisions. If you have nothing at stake, your opinion weights less than that of those who are invested somehow. Deal with it.

 

[crowning]

...And this will be the end of dash...

You're a bit late, others predicted this already when it still was called XCoin.

BTW, you know the meaning of the word "symmetry", especially in the context of spacetime?
You may want to check this and this and this .

https://github.com/NewEconomyMovement
We have Just to go there, and cut and paste their code into dash code.

Please come back when you have at least a tiny idea how software development works.

Thank you.

 

[demo]

You're a bit late, others predicted this already when it still was called XCoin.

BTW, you know the meaning of the word "symmetry", especially in the context of spacetime?
You want to check this and this and this .

You are right. For now on I will change the term. "Economic symmetry in space-time" is the correct one.

 

[demo]

Sure, copy-paste works just like that. Oh my..
If you really have no idea, why make a clown of yourself?

There is a reason why Dash governance was created the way it is. If you'd like to have a direct influence on the direction of the development, you either need to DO something as @UdjinM6 already explained, or you need to be financially invested (owning MNs, thus being able to vote). You are trying a third approach, which as you can see, will fail. The unwritten code of conduct in this project should be clear: these are the two commonly agreed ways to contribute and influence decisions. If you have nothing at stake, your opinion weights less than that of those who are invested somehow. Deal with it.

So theories have no value at all?
From your point of view, maxwell who discovered electromagnetic fields is a moron.
From your point of view, theorists didnt do something, they had nothing at stake, they were just talking.

When you are explaining your theory, you are doing something. If you are coding without theory, you are doing nothing.

 

[crowning]

You are right. For now on I will change the term. "Economic symmetry in space-time" is the correct one.

You did read (and understand) this one: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0902.4274.pdf ? And understand the consequences of the weaknesses of this theory?

 

[kot]

So theories have no value at all?
From your point of view, maxwell who discovered electromagnetic fields is a moron.
And all other theorists, they didnt do something, they had nothing at stake, they were just talking.
When you are explaining your theory, you are doing something.

So you find scientific theories comparable to wishful thinking and nonsense?

 

[demo]

So you find scientific theories comparable to wishful thinking and nonsense?

Not only sientific theories. Theories in general, is what I am talking about. Moral theories, political theories, religious theories, economic theories, mahtematical theories e.t.c

Everyone who express a theory, is doing something, even in case the theory is proved wrong.

It is meaningless to ask a proof of stake, at the time the theory is expressed. This is what @balu is doing.