Budget Proposal - Proof of Labour

[buster]

Myself and oaxaca will be doing a live interview with juliomoros and oscarmolivera about their whitepaper and cooresponding budget proposal.

Time: (use time converter if needed)
Sunday Feb 28, 2016
10:00 pm UTC
2:00 pm PST
5:00 pm EST

Where:
https://www.darq.io/live

What:
interview and audience AMA about the proposal/whitepaper. If you tune in live I'll be taking questions from the listeners.

This proposal is very unique. We've both read the white paper but it's very hard to understand all the mechanics of this idea.

There are some very good questions asked in this thread and hopefully we can get some elaboration on those. Also this will be a good discussion for those people who don't enjoy reading all these lines of text.

Julio indicated that they are not native English speakers. I believe Spanish is their natural language, but we're going to do our best. If there is somebody who speaks good Spanish and English and would like to join us that would be great.

Disclaimer: this is not an endorsement of the budget proposal. It's merely an attempt to give the proposers a platform to have a voice.

 

[toknormal]

Wow, this is going to be fantastic. There are loads of native Spanish speakers in the Dash community who maybe could assist.

 

[splawik21]

Wow, this is going to be fantastic. There are loads of native Spanish spearers in the Dash community who maybe could assist.

AFAIK Lebubar is the top guy. English, Spanish, he created these languages

 

[TanteStefana]

Yah, like Fernando and Juan Galt Edit: ^^^ Really? Cool! Also, isn't Daniel in Argentina (not Brazil?) Edit 2: will this be available to watch if I miss it live?

 

[buster]

Yah, like Fernando and Juan Galt Edit: ^^^ Really? Cool! Also, isn't Daniel in Argentina (not Brazil?) Edit 2: will this be available to watch if I miss it live?

fernando might be busy I'm in communication with him. I invited Juan on yesterday did not get a solid answer but he seemed interested. If you miss it live it will be published to my youtube channel, soundlcloud and website as well, so you will still be able to see it, just wont be able to participate in the AMA at the end with Julio and his partner Oscar. If you do have any specific questions you would like me to ask them though shoot me a pm, it seems you have done your homework here and would love your input.

 

[fernando]

fernando might be busy I'm in communication with him. I invited Juan on yesterday did not get a solid answer but he seemed interested. If you miss it live it will be published to my youtube channel, soundlcloud and website as well, so you will still be able to see it, just wont be able to participate in the AMA at the end with Julio and his partner Oscar. If you do have any specific questions you would like me to ask them though shoot me a pm, it seems you have done your homework here and would love your input.

Yeah, I don't think I can make it later today, really weird day going on. Besides, I haven't read shit about the proposal yet, so I would not be of any help anyway :grin:

 

[buster]

Yeah, I don't think I can make it later today, really weird day going on. Besides, I haven't read shit about the proposal yet, so I would not be of any help anyway :grin:

Lol I understand and still love you brother man!
Just fyi The point of this interview is for those people who don't have time to read that white paper or for the people who have read the white paper and still don't have a clear understanding of what this is (I'm in that boat). For those of you expecting some kind of detailed technical discussion about this proposal I'll try my best; but unless oaxaca has a much better understanding about this than I do we might be stuck with some basic information. The goal is to make this proposal as clear as possible for people voting on it, even if we don't pass this proposal today (which it doesn't look like we will) we can always think about it in the future if Julio and Oscar bring it back to us.

*edit for those scared to read the proposal there is like 8 pages of bitcoin definitions in the middle of it that can probably be skipped so it's not actually as long as it looks

 

[TanteStefana]

Also, They have another month before votes are due. They knew this would take a while to digest

 

[buster]

Also, They have another month before votes are due. They knew this would take a while to digest

Yeah from my understanding they were not in a big hurry to get this thing passed in the current budget. As I take notes and formulate my thoughts I am beginning to understand the concept a little more. The example they use about the auto repair shop is a pretty good way to try and understand a business that would be part of a flow script commitment:

"For example, an automobile repair shop. In regular market economy, if you don’t sell there
is no income. So, you need flawed cars frequently to survive. But under flow scrip
commitments, you may fulfill the contract whether or not customers come to you to fix a
car. So, is for your convenience to leave every car in the best possible conditions, so no
user come back to “nag” you."

I've only skimmed the responses in this thread so sorry if you guys already discussed some of that

 

[fernando]

Lol I understand and still love you brother man!
Just fyi The point of this interview is for those people who don't have time to read that white paper or for the people who have read the white paper and still don't have a clear understanding of what this is (I'm in that boat). For those of you expecting some kind of detailed technical discussion about this proposal I'll try my best; but unless oaxaca has a much better understanding about this than I do we might be stuck with some basic information. The goal is to make this proposal as clear as possible for people voting on it, even if we don't pass this proposal today (which it doesn't look like we will) we can always think about it in the future if Julio and Oscar bring it back to us.

*edit for those scared to read the proposal there is like 8 pages of bitcoin definitions in the middle of it that can probably be skipped so it's not actually as long as it looks

Well, I think that a proposal as complex as this one will probably need a lot of explanation, so your show with them is definitely a great idea. If I can't listen today, I will definitely do tomorrow.

Btw, it is great that you are recording so much more lately. I know it is a ton of work, but I really appreciate it!

 

[buster]

I just had a meet and greet with Julio on google hangouts and it went very well. I don't think the english will be an issue but still would be cool if we got a Spanish speaker. Slot is still open!

There is a counter to when the show goes live here
http://darq.io/live

That is also where you can watch. Ill be taking questions from people in my slack channel and the group chat section of google hangouts.

After speaking with Julio for only 5 minutes I have a basic understanding of why they are developing something like this. I also realized how fkn spoiled I am to be living where I do. I can honestly say that 5 minute conversation brought me back down to earth.

One thing Might be some audio issues as the connection for them is not the best, but he can use his phone for a connection which improves it quite a bit. Only thing is this will shorten the length of the interview because we don't want him to melt his phone.

See you all soon!

 

[toknormal]

Listening to that interview, I just realised that mobile phone companies are more interested in "flow money" than "stock money" cos they're always trying to sign people up to monthly contracts (and consumers are interested in a continuous on-demand service).

Also, I just realised that there is huge amount of labour that is not monetised. In particular in the Mediterranean countries (as distinct from the Northern European countries) families contribute to the public economy far more. Parents associations keep many functions in schools running (such as meal contracts, book procurement etc). Families are also involved in patient care in hospitals. These are non-remunerated sectors of the economy that do not reflect in GDP to the extent that they do in northern Europe and if they did those countries would have higher GDP's.

 

[oscarmolivera]

Listening to that interview, I just realised that mobile phone companies are more interested in "flow money" than "stock money" cos they're always trying to sign people up to monthly contracts (and consumers are interested in a continuous on-demand service).

Also, I just realised that there is huge amount of labour that is not monetised. In particular in the Mediterranean countries (as distinct from the Northern European countries) families contribute to the public economy far more. Parents associations keep many functions in schools running (such as meal contracts, book procurement etc). Families are also involved in patient care in hospitals. These are non-remunerated sectors of the economy that do not reflect in GDP to the extent that they do in northern Europe and if they did those countries would have higher GDP's.

Exactly toknormal, now you can see the enormous implications that the Flow Scrip proposal has?

 

[buster]

Hey guys thanks to everyone who participated.

Here is the Soundcloud Sound Clip of the inteview:
https://soundcloud.com/thedarq/ep16

You can also see it on the website
http://darq.io/media/ep16

You can also watch it on youtube

Sorry it's long but it went very well. Thanks for tuning in.

 

[toknormal]

Exactly toknormal, now you can see the enormous implications that the Flow Scrip proposal has?

Yes, I can. I think it will be the pin that bursts the fiat baloon. Localised instead of centralised liquidity creation.

Isn't all credit money flow money in a way because banks essentially require an implicit promise of economic activity (nominally quantified as debt) to create it ? The difference with this is that that the suppliers and consumers own the liquidity generation process themselves instead of banks owning it and charging interest on it.

 

[toknormal]

One way to resolve the "negative coins" issue might be:

[1] - build the logic to support the flow script user interfaces in Dash's APi layer (the one that's coming with Evolution)

[2] - for any given flow script, in the API layer simply nominate 2 addresses in the blockchain and a reference amount that represented parity

So, for example if the parity balance was 20 Dash, then you'd start the flow script period with 40 Dash at one address and zero at another (which when resolved to flow calibration would represent -20 and +20 in the relative 'charge/credit accounts').

This would mean that the agreements between business wallets and consumers could be facilitated and the flow script would be supported but the Dash blockchain doesn't even have to know about it.

The coin destruction algorithm in the flowscript (that activates when there's a shortfall in benefits) would be supported by simply moving the balance back to parity. So lets say the relative address balances were 23 Dash / 17 Dash, then coin destruction would be represented by paying 3 Dash to address B, thereby bringing the balances back to 20/20 parity. Since 20 was the calibrated reference balance in the flowscript, that would represent zero in both accounts = coins destroyed. But of course no coins are actually destroyed in the blockchain - just moved to "back" the relative states of the flowscript credit.

The user interface logic in the API layer could even automatically resolve between the two calibrations so that it actually shows zero balance when the paired flowscript addresses are at parity. You could therefore possibly implement all this without messing with the blockchain at all.

 

[TanteStefana]

Yeah from my understanding they were not in a big hurry to get this thing passed in the current budget. As I take notes and formulate my thoughts I am beginning to understand the concept a little more. The example they use about the auto repair shop is a pretty good way to try and understand a business that would be part of a flow script commitment:

"For example, an automobile repair shop. In regular market economy, if you don’t sell there
is no income. So, you need flawed cars frequently to survive. But under flow scrip
commitments, you may fulfill the contract whether or not customers come to you to fix a
car. So, is for your convenience to leave every car in the best possible conditions, so no
user come back to “nag” you."

I've only skimmed the responses in this thread so sorry if you guys already discussed some of that

Oh, this sounds like insurance??

 

[SnowHater]

buster, great show! Thanks.

 

[fernando]

Just listened to the show. Really interesting! I still don't fully get the proposal, but I still need to read the proposal, so the blame is on me :smile: Anyway, the interview was interesting enough to put the time needed into reading the paper.

 

[toknormal]

Oh, this sounds like insurance??

Yeah - I thought that as well. It's like the insurance model in some aspects. The difference here is that you don't need a bank to provide the liquidity. The liquidity gets created from the value of the exchange involved. I don't think people quite realise the significance of that part.

Many libertarians (including me) balk at the idea of "money created from nothing" or fractional reserve banking or debt. But in fact you can't run a society on a fixed monetary base - you do need some kind of credit creation cycle otherwise new infrastructure projects could never be started.

The problem with the current fiat system is not that it has a credit creation cycle, it's that:

[1] - that facility (of creating liquidity) is in the hands of a few private entities

[2] - the economic value behind the new liquidity has to be underwritten by the borrowers instead of the lenders and they end up paying interest on it when in fact (IMO) the interest should accrue to them since, although they didn't provide the liquidity, they do have to underwrite its value through their labour

What the flow script model does is put the liquidity generation back in the hands of stakeholders of the economy - in this case the providers of goods and services and the consumers of same.