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Pre-Proposal: ATMs in major French cities

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by thesavoyard, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    Introduction

    A pre-proposal to install Dash enabled ATMs in major French cities.

    France has a very low adoption rate for cryptocurrencies. This leaves an opportunity to be the first major accepted digital currency. One of the major barriers to Dash acceptance is fungibility. This proposal would provide regional fungibility in at least four major French cities, also in border regions to overlap with Spain, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, and Belgium.

    The cities we intend to target include: Paris, Lyon, Montpellier, and Annecy (near Geneva, Switzerland). These cities are large student cities with high levels of tourism.


    Why should Dash fund this?

    The low adoption rate of cryptocurrency ATMs in Europe is due to the high cost and highly regulated market. A lawyer is required to create lease contracts for rent and to provide banking service. An armed guard with an armored vehicle must service the machine, we are not allowed to access the interior.

    We already have an established business in vending in the region. Essentially, we have experience and licensing. We have access to all the legal resources needed to install the ATMs. We also have relationships with souvenir shops in major tourist areas where we can market Dash point of sale machines later on.

    With the high startup costs of ATM service, combined with the high risk of the venture, cryptocurrency ATMs have notoriously high fees. http://www.businessinsider.com/using-a-bitcoin-atm-is-actually-pretty-expensive-2014-3?IR=T

    Funding with a grant will allow our Dash enabled ATM to charge a lower fee, giving Dash a competitive advantage in Western Europe.

    Who are we?

    My name is Christopher Felix, doing business as disaf.fr (Distributeur automatique France). I own, place, and manage penny press machines in the central France region. I have been in the business for nearly two years and I’m looking to expand to Dash ATMs.

    I am American born and have a background in business administration and logistics. In the US I worked for RICOH Logistics USA as an exporter.

    I am also an Oxford-trained English teacher at the Ecole des Mines in Saint Etienne France. A highly ranked engineering school.

    I am currently seeking a certificate in database development and design to improve my technical business knowledge.

    https://www.facebook.com/christopher.felix.545 Bitcointalk.org profile: thesavoyard

    My name is Isabelle Felix, I have been a freelance photographer for more than ten years. I contract real estate photography primarily but also provide administrative services to my clients, a local investment firm.

    I am French but have lived in the United States and Switzerland as well. I am currently learning web design and development to further my education and provide needed services for my clients.

    https://www.facebook.com/iaflx

    Estimated Costs

    Purchase of four BATMThreeM+ teller machines for installation in Lyon, Montpellier, Paris and Annecy. 4x $8000 + VAT @ 20% = 400 Dash

    Legal fees for space lease and bank contract = 20 Dash

    Premium location rental space = 72 Dash

    Travel expenses for machine placement plus proposal cost reimbursement (one time) = 13 Dash

    Total = 505 Dash

    A high budget for rental will allow the machines to be placed in prime areas with high exposure, not just small, private computer shops. With leverage, we may be able to place the machines in city owned areas, department stores or train stations.


    Actionables

    · Purchase four Dash enabled ATMs, preferably GeneralBytes with NFC card wallet dispenser.

    · Properly license and contract with banks to provide service for the ATMs.

    · Contract legal services to manage ATM placement and liability.

    · Provide management and maintenance on ATM machines for a minimum of 4 years.

    · Provide a lower fee for Dash users on the ATM than Bitcoin users. (Eventually Bitcoin may be disabled due to double spending risk.)


    Feedback is welcomed and appreciated.



     
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  2. CharlieShrem

    CharlieShrem New Member

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    Hey!

    Thoughts

    - I think DASH would benefit from ATM's. However, I think you should look to put 1 in Paris, 1 in Amsterdam and 1 in Berlin, or something like that. 4 in France is too saturated.
    - Besides for the benefit of having good on/off ramps, I think a profit sharing agreement with the community could be interesting to look at.

    -Charlie
     
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  3. 7dhdaQhZ

    7dhdaQhZ New Member

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  4. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    I'd love to put a machine in Amsterdam! That's worth looking into. Berlin is a good idea as well, but much closer to General Bytes Eu branch so I'm not sure it isn't already done. I'd think at least 2 in France should be good?There currently aren't any machines in Lyon and it is a metro of 4 million.

    I will modify the proposal for Amsterdam and Berlin (if Berlin isn't taken). what do you think about the scale? I was thinking about starting with one machine but Dash is growing fast and small scale proposals would have small scale impacts.
     
  5. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    Charlie's proposal is less reliant on expensive equipment. In order to increase Dash acceptability, I think we need to get a street level marketing. Not just mass marketing. No doubt Charlie's proposal will drastically increase exposure and acceptability. But it won't penetrate every region. In order to make Dash go mainstream, you need to be local.

    The Paris ATM has fees over 11%. I can drop Annecy and Montpellier and add Amsterdam and Berlin. Or just drop Berlin due to distance and add Amsterdam. I'm looking to refine my proposal so any feedback is helpful!
     
    #5 thesavoyard, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  6. CharlieShrem

    CharlieShrem New Member

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    First, I would do research on the top LocalBitcoins volume by European city. Also do some demographic data on who is buying Dash and where.

    Go where the buyers and sellers are :)
     
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  7. Narroway

    Narroway New Member

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    May I assume that since you will be asking for funds from the Dash Treasury that this business will be running at a no or low profit? If this will be a for-profit business for you than why would you not make you profit from the running of the business like all other successful endeavors.
     
  8. halso

    halso Active Member

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    DASH only ATM is more appealing than DASH enabled ATM. Unless the BTC fees will also be shared with the MNs also?
     
  9. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Honestly, I personally don't believe in crypto ATMs as an idea anymore...
    "I can buy/sell <crypto> in N places around me!" Well, cool, so what? What are you going to do with that?
    Why would you want to buy some crypto? Probably to invest a bit. Well, it's much easier to buy crypto on online exchanges. Or you will most likely get much more choices to buy it via localbitcoins/wallofcoins if there is at least some adoption in that region.
    Why would you want to sell crypto? Probably to cash out or to pay for smth. Well, it's much easier to use cards https://www.cryptocompare.com/wallets/#/cards to withdraw $/euro/whatever in any regular ATM (and there are many thousands of ATM, they are almost everywhere) or to pay for things directly online and offline.
    Both selling and buying these ways won't require you to search for that one and only ATM somewhere and also give you much more options. So why using crypto ATMs in the first place?
     
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  10. Technologov

    Technologov Member

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    One problem with all the current ATMs is that they are Bitcoin branded.

    If Dash is gonna sponsor that, it should have Dash branding front-and-center, and have 2-way capability.

    Is there any Dash branded ATM? (Huge blue Dash logo on it) Brand recognition is super important.
     
  11. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    I'm with UdjinM6. Never understood why anybody should bother with ATMs. Seems so 20th century. We should be concentrating on a wallocoins type solution for Europeans. Why should we sponsor an expensive, make that really expensive option. 1 location in Paris? Check the moneygram location chart for Paris:
    [​IMG]

    Wallocoins already has moneygram hooked up. There are lots of bank branches as well. Why not use their infrastructure (buildings, tellers, networking) against them. Show me some data about ATM use anywhere that will justify this and I'll reconsider.
     
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  12. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Looks like if I want to buy Dash in Paris with cash, I already have options:


    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Obusco

    Obusco Official Dash Dev
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    And Toulouse ? :'( *total sadness*

    If I may, it worth talking with the guys at "La Maison du Bitcoin" in Paris (try PM them on twitter @lamaisondubtc), they had bought an ATM (bitcoin), and they had to shut it down because of legal restriction. The law do not allow to buy from an ATM because of the fact that you hide a transaction. That is the reason you know have to buy/sell from their Desk (with ID Card if I'm correct).
    I know we had an ATM in Toulouse, but same thing, it has been shut down (but this might came from the fact that the company that runs it : "MineOnCloud" has switch to Online resell only).

    I will try to get more information from MineOnCloud and their ATM whenever I can.

    Do you have talked to one of those who had taken the journey of putting an ATM, I'm not an expert, but there seems like complication around that ?
     
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  14. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    @Narroway Absolutely not, do the master nodes need to stop accepting profits related to Dash? If they give Grants they are also benefiting from the promotion of the money. As it stands, it could be a long while to profit from Dash ATMs. I would have to put in potentially years of work before I turned a profit so I'm not willing to go non-profit. A dash grant is defined as something that Dash as a whole benefits from, not a non-profit endeavor. Besides, if it was non-profit I'd likely be considered an employee and Dash would provide me a wage. I would still profit but not share in the risk.

    @halso Profit sharing with the master nodes is currently not possible. I don't want to make promises I can't keep. Charlie has the idea to create a profit sharing scheme but it may not even be legal. It could be considered bribery to profit share a grant.

    @UdjinM6 I don't see how shady exchanges are going to replace ATMs in the near future. Most people don't have access to Dash/BTC because it is too difficult to buy. While this only solves the problem for people living near ATMs, it does incrementally give greater access. That is how Dash will become digital cash for the masses, incrementally. Don't think paper money is outdated, though, it's not going anywhere soon. You can't be banking for the masses without fungibility from paper to digital without a bank, an ATM is the solution.

    @Technologov I have access to custom graphics. Vinyl Dash stickers on and around the ATM were always part of the planning.

    @oaxaca Please see my response to UsjinM6, ATMs are far from outdated and for most users, Dash is hard to get. You'll never become Grandma's money if you can't install local ease of use methods. While money gram might be a competitor, it's not convenient and most people won't use it. Plus, a Dash ATM has street level marketing. I invite people new to marketing to do some research. Youtube will only go so far.

    http://www.marketing-schools.org/types-of-marketing/street-marketing.html


    I can see the reaction is overall negative. To be honest it's a bit disappointing. While only the Masternode holders opinions will decide in the end, I will not risk 5 Dash unless I have a generally positive response. I will work on refining my proposals and addressing any valid concerns.
     
    #14 thesavoyard, Mar 16, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  15. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    @Obusco Je suis desole! Toulouse is a very long and expensive trip from here. It's an eight hour drive with over 100 euros in tolls! The other cities are within day trip range!

    The ATMs are legal, I'm not sure what happened in Toulouse but I've spoken with the owners of the ATM in Montpellier. I have a lawyer that will be on retainer to deal with the complicated legal issues of ATMs in France!
     
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  16. Loov Loom

    Loov Loom New Member
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    I like the idea! If the machines will be branded with "Dash" logos, then I'll vote "yes".
     
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  17. Miner237

    Miner237 Well-known Member
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    Hi please no offense but ATM is touchy subject for me.

    Do you realize the BATM3 does not support DASH?!?!?!?

    Do you have experience with Crypto ATM systems? A penny press is NOTHING like an ATM.....

    I am doing this for the network FREE of charge in the US right now.

    I will submit a pre-proposal as well for the US if there is interest from the network in funding these machines, I would be happy to have my business expenses paid for by the network as well.
     
  18. Loov Loom

    Loov Loom New Member
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    I think the Dash budget should support getting these ATMs around,
    but yeah, maybe paying all the expenses from Dash budget and getting all the gains is not the right way.
     
  19. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    There is one big reason for using a crypto ATM.
    Anonymity.
     
  20. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    There is no such thing in public places anymore, they all are under camera surveillance.
     
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  21. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Cameras are useless. Υou can disguise.
     
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  22. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Haha, good luck :D
     
  23. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #23 demo, Mar 16, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  24. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Not in the least possible. Companies like IBM can identity and track people simply based on height or the way they walk. And they do of course, have basic AI for things like "follow white van with blue logo..." or "follow man in black cap with grey jeans..." etc etc. Across multiple cams and other devices )(audio analysis etc).

    TV programmes like Hunted don't show you half of what they can do.
     
  25. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    I would be willing to do a profit share if there are any profits with the Dash core business team. There would have to be outs written into the contract due to the high-risk nature of the business. But I will not bribe the master nodes to get the grant. Some people struggle with the concept of a grant and the purpose of their votes. I can see the greed of some master node holders is way out of hand and could lead to unethical and maybe even illegal relationships. Honestly, if you can't see the value of an ATM carrying your currency I'm questioning your business acumen. Cryptocurrency is still VERY difficult to buy for most people.

    I'll write a pre-proposal for an ATM in Lyon and contact the Dash business development team and see if we can arrange monthly payments for a set amount of time. Of course, the payments would be based both on Dash and BTC sold at the machine. I will be putting a machine in Lyon with or without the grant. The grant would help me secure a better machine, charge lower fees for Dash users and pay a higher lease for the location. This is exactly the kind of ground level marketing Dash needs, please try to see the world outside of the bubble where cryptos are old news.

    Also, Dash is supported. https://www.generalbytes.com/bitcoin-atm-dash-support/ 100% of General Bytes ATMs support Dash.
     
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  26. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    I also want you to be aware if there is profit sharing, then this is no longer a grant and is not what the Dash masternode vote was intended for.
     
  27. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    No they cannot identify you. It is very easy to imitate the way an old man walks. It is very easy to imitate a lame. The important think when you disguise is always to remember not to walk the way you walk. You may wear unequal shoes if you think that you may forget and start walking normaly. That way you can fool all their AI and protect your privacy from the cameras.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ise-helped-31-year-old-fugitive-evade-n636231

    [​IMG]

    The above was a serious criminal and he managed to escape from the police for months.
    So I think it is easy to protect your privacy, the few times you go to the crypto ATM.
    You just need a lot of crypto ATM's, a basic knowledge in order to spot the cameras, a decent disguise and a lame walk imitation.
     
    #27 demo, Mar 16, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  28. joemoraca

    joemoraca Member

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    Any update on this?
     
  29. thesavoyard

    thesavoyard Member

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    Hello, update incoming next week at the latest. We are negotiating three premium locations if all three go through we will be placed in all three. I can't give any more details until contracts are signed but they are perfect locations for Dash, surrounded by hundreds of retailers each. I hope I can come back next week with good news!
     
  30. blockchaintech

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    Ey! And other in Barcelona or Madrid, men. Spain exists !! :rolleyes:
    Spain is very touristy.
     

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