Possibility of z snark privacy on Dash in the future?

PAX

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Is it possible that DASH could adopt the z-snark privacy cryptology in the future?
 

Miner237

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Is it possible sure why not, but not sure how DASH would benefit from this. It already has a zero knowledge system after mixing occurs you DASH can be anonymous. Do expand on your question
 

PAX

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thank you for that reply--- i very well could be incorrect-- but it is my understanding that DASH's current coin- mixing privacy/anonymity method is still traceable by advanced investigative measures. Again, perhaps incorrectly--- it is my understanding that the z-k snark technology is the superior non-traceable privacy anonymity transaction method.......
 

adi382

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but it is my understanding that DASH's current coin- mixing privacy/anonymity method is still traceable by advanced investigative measures.
According to whom? Have these advanced tracing measures ever been demonstrated to break Dash's anonymity?
 

camosoul

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According to whom? Have these advanced tracing measures ever been demonstrated to break Dash's anonymity?
The XMR clowns have been using this line for nearly 3 years. You'd think they would have laid the issue to rest by now...
 

DashDude

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The XMR clowns have been using this line for nearly 3 years. You'd think they would have laid the issue to rest by now...
It's not just the XMR clowns. Even among general Bitcoiners when someone asks for a private transaction solution the preference is for Monero first, ZCash second and Dash mentioned barely or not at all. I've seen this several times in threads on r/bitcoin, r/btc and r/bitcoinmarkets which is my favorite of the three.

Dash's solution works, but is not preferred by the general crypto community at this time. I'd also like to understand zk-snarks more, why Ethereum chose that technology path, etc. I'm neither a cryptographer nor a computer scientist, but it seems like a valid question to me.
 
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camosoul

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Dash's solution works, but is not preferred by the general crypto community at this time.
Rules for Radicals: Never go outside of your own peoples' knowledge.

DASH forces people outside of the realm of common knowledge. This has always been the case... this is why DASH has always had an uphill battle, and frankly, I'm fine with that. Resources should be spent on development, not trying to educate stupid people.

The problem with privatesend is that most people know what cryptography is, but they have no clue what steganography is. They've never even heard of it.

They go along with the thing they've heard of. They consider it "best" because they have no clue what they're comparing against. They have no understanding of the alternative. They don't even know what it's called. They fear the unknown.

Which is better?

A Ford Mustang?
or
A Smarglack Sorgenfloob?

For all you know, a Smarglack Sorgenfloob is a spaceship. Which is obviously waayyy better than a Ford Mustang. But, you don't know that. You've never even heard of it before... So you confine yourself to the realm of what you know, and buy a Ford Mustang and declare it the best because you wouldn't declare the decision you just made to be the worst, your fragile crypto-snowflake ego depends on being right about everything always and knowing everything. If you admitted that you didn't know everything, that introduces the possibility of being wrong, and that just won't do! Ask pretty much any cryptotard...

An introduction to the concept of hiding in plain view; steganography, would not go amiss. Audit-able privacy is best privacy. I don't know of anyone who has even attempted an infographic or simple video about this.

I describe it to people as putting all your money into a cash register with everyone else's money. You get back the same number of $100s, $50s, $20s, $5s and $1s that you put it, but there is no longer any way to know which one came from who, or that you have them, until you stick your name on a TX. So, don't do that.

Cryptography is essentially a ticking time bomb. It's not a matter of if the whole thing will be unmasked, but when.

Since DASH's steganographic version is optional, transparent, and not dependent upon computing power; I say that's better. DASH doesn't hide the connection, it eliminates the connection. Whether or not the DASH you're holding was once used in a drug deal, or to pay a hitman, is not your responsibility, nor should anyone be able to check and see, or falsely accuse you of criminal involvement by means of a connection you had nothing to with with. No amount of computing power can counter that. the guilty-until-proven-innocent realm of "regulation" doesn't like it, but that's kinda the point... "Regulation" is nothing more than a nameless, evidence-less criminal accusation from which you are forced to prove your innocence.

But, making a large effort to corral the ignorant and force them to learn is a waste of time. You can't force a herd of cats to sit down, hold still, and learn the math you're trying to teach them for their own good. It'll never happen. As with everything else about DASH throughout it's lifetime, DASH makes such leaps that it takes a while for the derps to catch on. Just keep doing what you're doing and the weak will have regrets for not keeping up. Nothing you can do about that without slowing yourself down. It's nature.
 
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dashman2

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Don't think dash would benefit from it personally- hiding in plain view is a good analogy. cheers
 
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PAX

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According to whom? Have these advanced tracing measures ever been demonstrated to break Dash's anonymity?
Well, am not saying they are correct-- but the "PR" on a number of large YOUTUBE video bloggers often repeat the meme that DASH's privacy crypto is not as good as Monero or ZCash-- and they specifically allege that transactions using DASH's privacy can be "followed" or traced-- here is an example of such a claim in this YOUTUBE Vlogger who has a large following-- Roger Ver also said the same thing in one of his YouTube videos---- see YOUTUBE video here:
 

solarguy

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Well, am not saying they are correct-- but the "PR" on a number of large YOUTUBE video bloggers often repeat the meme that DASH's privacy crypto is not as good as Monero or ZCash-- and they specifically allege that transactions using DASH's privacy can be "followed" or traced-- here is an example of such a claim in this YOUTUBE Vlogger who has a large following-- Roger Ver also said the same thing in one of his YouTube videos---- see YOUTUBE video here:
Some time ago, one of our members sent a dollar (I think) to the Monero donation fund to they could pay their poor developers something. And he challenged them to trace or "break" the transaction. And, as I recall, he only used 4 layers of mixing, not 8, which is far far far harder to break.

The silence was deafening. They never broke it. In fact, nobody anywhere has ever broken a Dash privatesend transaction insofar as we know. Can't say that for Monero. I believe we will soon have a proposal to offer serious reward money to anyone who can break a specific privatesend transaction. Something on the order of fifty grand. It's a win/win. If they don't break it, we can rub their face in it. In the unlikely event that someone does break it, the reward is contingent on showing us the exploit so we can fix it, then we offer another even bigger reward. Win/Win.

On top of that, as I recall, there is an even more sophisticated and more trustless privacy/mixing function on the roadmap.

Saying the world is flat 192 times, and yelling it, and making a youtube video about it, still doesn't make it so.
 

PAX

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Hi Solarguy! -- what you wrote about Monero, the "rumors" and the coming reward and even further improvements to the DASH private send transaction feature is GREAT! -- thank you for that- -and for the data on the subject! :) I guess it really is a matter of "PR" out there - the bounty thing would be a great promo feature-- of if there was just an easy way/educational link on the subject that is informative and PRO DASH PRIVACY PR-- which we could share and send to these YOUTUBE Bloggers each time they make such a remark-- that would be awesome.!
Thanks for the data-- PAX
 

Voluntary

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Pivx, which started as Darkcoin by forking the Dash source code but not the Dash blockchain, is currently in the process of integrating Zerocoin style zk-snarks for private transactions. re: Coin mixing... It's a wasteful use of blockspace and as currently implemented is only safe against _known_ analysis methods.
 

camosoul

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It's pretty common media practice to repeat a lie and call it news.

There's nothing you can do to stop the ignorant from speaking what they imagine to be true.

As I've previously mentioned, an introduction to stegnogaphy would be the best course of action.

Everyone understands Cryptography, so they go with it simply because they understand it.
They don't understand Steganography, so they can't choose it because it's a big fat question mark.

Stop talking about "mixing."

Equivalent denominations tossed in a pile is a sub-category of steganographic methodologies. Talking about mixing skips over the first explanation.

No one has ever broken it. They've already had all the incentive in the world. Since they can't break it, they play the SJW game; they simply declare it so with no facts, and even in the face of facts.

You're trying to go up against a lie directly. You can't do that. It just looks like a shouting contest with neither side presenting any facts.

The onlookers make their choice based on "feelings" since they don't understand either side of the argument.

So, explain steganography, and the particular subset of it, denomination and mixing, that DASH uses. Let people make up their own minds.

At the moment, people are making up their minds based on a completely one-sided narrative of simply going with the thing they know. Don't interfere with people making up their own minds. Simply add the missing information.

Stupid people and trolls will still be stupid people and trolls. There's nothing you can do to "counter" that, and there's no reason to waste your time trying. Simply provide the missing information that the deceivers are taking advantage of.
 

camosoul

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There is a proposal in pre-discussion about offering a big fat juicy reward for anyone that can break a privatesend transaction. I am hopeful that it will turn into a full blown proposal this budget cycle. That'll shut their pie hole.

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...atesend-de-anonymization-contest.16038/page-2
I'm not sure this is useful. It may just bring out the fakers.

There is already a bigger reward at stake; being the one who brought down the Cult of Evan. XMR has been telling us it's so easy a child can do it for nearly 3 years now. If it's so easy, why can't anyone do it? Adding a tiny stack of cash to that is not going to help.

The problem here is that people are choosing between a thing they understand, and a thing they've never heard of. They always choose the thing they understand.

They have no clue what steganography is, so they can't choose it.
 

camosoul

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

wikipedia said:
Steganography (/ˌstɛɡəˈnɒɡrəfi/ ( listen) STEG-ə-NOG-rə-fee) is the practice of concealing a file, message, image, or video within another file, message, image, or video.
We're hiding all transactions inside a ledger of transactions, by making all transactions look the same.

Every duff is saying: "I am Sparatcus!"

You're hiding one thing inside a large group of things that all look the same, using a mechanism that historically identified objects as unique, by continuing to identify them, but by eliminating the uniqueness instead of the identification.

If every Dollar had it's serial number erased...

Cryptography maintains the uniqueness, but tries to hide the uniqueness. The problem with this being, Moore's Law. Once the hiding mechanism fails, which it inevitably will, the uniqueness will be exposed, because it was there all along. The cryptographic blockchain becomes no better than BTC, LTC, et al. This is not a matter of if, but when. It will happen.

You'd think anyone who ever saw a Guy Fawkes mask would grasp the concept...

Cryptography is a ticking time bomb.
 
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solarguy

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IT WOULD BE GREAT IF WE/DASH COULD GET THIS TYPE OF FREE PUBLICITY, SUCH AS MONERO IS SOMEHOW GARNERING, FOR DASH'S PRIVACY ATTRIBUTES: SEE THIS ARTICLE : https://themarketmogul.com/xmr-monero-cryptocurrency/?hvid=Qj5mr

Meh...that free publicity isn't all that great, "Due to the secrecy Monero brings and its use on the Dark Web, a large security risk is presented; contraband supply can be hidden, as well as fraud and other crime. Therefore, it is only inevitable that soon regulators and governments will put strong restrictions in place to protect users and to regulate its use."
 

greensheep

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Jan 3, 2016
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The Darksend feature of Dash does have some issues, so I think Dash should explore possiblities to integrate z-snark in some way. The problems with Darksend that I see
  1. You must never leave any change when paying with darkmixed coins. Spending any change would break your anonymity.
  2. The smallest denomination of mixed coins currently is 0.0100001 Dash, which is worth about $2 at the moment. This means on average you pay 0.005 Dash or $1 too much in a darksend transaction that because of 1) you cannot get back as change. This makes darksend transactions impractical for low amounts at the moment. Introducing smaller denominations would help here.
  3. Darkmixing uses many addresses which potentially bloat the blockchain and your wallets.
  4. Hardware wallets (currently) do not support dark mixing. Which again limits its usability. z-snark have the same problem and it might be much harder to get support for it on hw wallets. We will see who will be first to solve that.
 

AnarchicCluster

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Dec 22, 2014
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Evan seems to be sceptical about zk-snarks here is what he said on reddit.
Offchain mixing solutions are always going to be better than any sort of cryptographic functions that are stored on chain. Think about quantum computers, ASIC fabricated specifically made to break said cryptography, etc. When the value being transmitted exceeds the cost of producing such a device it will be done, probably in private by nationstates for the specific purpose of breaking the anonymity.
Source
 

camosoul

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You must never leave any change when paying with darkmixed coins. Spending any change would break your anonymity.
This was known, address, and a solution created, a long time ago.

You are either a troll, or you haven't done sufficient research.

The smallest denomination of mixed coins currently is 0.0100001 Dash, which is worth about $2 at the moment. This means on average you pay 0.005 Dash or $1 too much in a darksend transaction that because of 1) you cannot get back as change. This makes darksend transactions impractical for low amounts at the moment. Introducing smaller denominations would help here.
This is predicated upon the previous falsehood, so it is also a falsehood.

The change problem is solved, so this argument went out the window with it.

Caveat: solve, but not implemented. DASH is Alpha experimentation on some core function. Evolution is the final product, and we don't even have a glimpse at that yet. This is all very early experimental. It's easy for the Cryptotard community to miss that fact, because what DASH looks like now is familiar, but what it's heading for is not. There's no frame of reference for people who have never accomplished anything grand in their live. They see DASH as it is today with no ability to reason that it's just a first step. This lack of vision is a result of ALL cryptocurrencies taking only that first step and then stopping there. That's not what's happening with DASH.

While I have a LOT of criticism for the totally retarded way some of this has been grossly and even willfully mismanaged, the forward progress is still happening. Boy orders of magnitude over what it had been even this time last year.
Darkmixing uses many addresses which potentially bloat the blockchain and your wallets.
It bloats it a lot less than the cryptographic option.

My Hummer as a bigger gas tank than my motorcycle. So what?

You're also ignoring the fact that, in the very near future, no DASH wallet will store the blockchain. DAPI. Again, you're either a troll, or you're really bad at doing research. Or both...
Hardware wallets (currently) do not support dark mixing. Which again limits its usability. z-snark have the same problem and it might be much harder to get support for it on hw wallets. We will see who will be first to solve that.
I've been using hardware wallets on DASH for a while now. I hope this "problem" is never "solved" because it isn't limiting my usability in the slightest... This is an imagined problem of someone desperately trying to make a point that isn't real. You're looking more and more like a troll instead of simply being misinformed... Benefit of the doubt is going to run out real quick...
 
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