Official Dash Instamine Issue Clarification

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kot

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Hey Everyone!

I was thinking that it would be good to have an official explanation of the instamine issue as many people are concerned about it and ask questions.
It is very easy to find a lot of scam about this problem but it is difficult to find any of our explanations in the net (just ask google). Therefore I have created a page in our confluence that can be easy indexed and promoted. Feel free to share the link below with the new users asking about this problem. You could also use the article in discussion with our friends from the Bitcointalk, who constantly raise this topic.

https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/OC/Dash Instamine Issue Clarification

I would like to thank balu and babygiraffe for their editorial help

PS. If you see a need to change or update this page - feel free to share your comments or send me a PM
 
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fernando

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I agree about the need for this, but no truth is gonna convince the trolls. I would have it for SEO purposes, but I would not move it around too much. If we share it in bitcointalk the only thing we'll achieve is getting a few toxic comments in confluence :sad:

Also, we need to acknowledge what happened. I really believe it was not intentional and for sure it was not a scam, but it happened. And it has had some advantages for us, like giving Evan enough coins so he had an incentive to stick around for really long without doing anything else. And that is something that has been key for Dash being what it is today. When people ask me what I try to do is to explain that today it doesn't affect the coin in any meaningful way. No feature is affected by it. People who are pissed are because they didn't benefit from it, not because of its effects or what it means. I understand, I also wish I was here in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that the coin is broken in any way!
 

kot

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fernando There is no intention to convince the trolls - it is simply impossible :). The intention is to share an open and honest communication to our current and future users + SEO.
Are you suggesting to add any additional statements?

daf - thanks for the suggestion (I will update the document)
 
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fernando

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fernando There is no intention to convince the trolls - it is simply impossible :). The intention is to give offer and honest communication to our current and future users + SEO.
Are you suggesting to add any additional statements?

daf - thanks for suggestion (I will update the document)
Nope, I think it is good :) I was just saying that we should not go too far in terms of sharing it, especially on btctalk.
 

Ryan Taylor

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Couple of additional thoughts (sorry I didn't think of these during the editorial process).

1) We could point out that the larger base of coins potentially benefits new investors, because dilution is lower than it otherwise would be (we currently have dilution of a little under 14% annually, which is very low for a coin our age); it is hard to argue that higher coin creation in relation to the base would be better
2) Point out that if it were a scam, the lead dev has had ample opportunities to cash out during past price surges, but has not, and that pace of development and new innovations are robust

Perhaps those help make the case?
 

wserd

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I agree with babygiraffe. One of the best arguments against it having an influence today is that there have been both major price spikes and declines where early holders could have sold their coins and new users could have bought.

Edit: You seem to address that already, not sure if you edited but I like it a lot in its current form. Concise yet comprehensive.
 
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ericsammons

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I first got some Dash about a year ago (when it was still Darkcoin), but have only recently been looking more into it. I didn't know anything about the instamine issue until a few weeks ago, and boy does it bring out the trolls! Personally, I don't really care who owns how much of a coin - what matters to me is the technology and economics of the coin, and if it can presently be fairly acquired and used. Frankly, the instamine doesn't impact a new investor in the least as that has already been priced in. What matters is its future potential as a currency.

However, I do think there is a need for transparency, and something like this statement is an important step. But I wonder if it doesn't go far enough. The details are pretty vague - it just says things like Evan has a lot of coins, but not the most; others also got a lot of coins early on, etc. I know a fundamental principle of Dash is privacy, but can more details be given, such as approx. how many Dash does Evan own, how many did he acquire the first 24 hours, etc.? Basically people just have to take your word for it now, with no blockchain evidence.

In the Bitcoin world, Satoshi's holdings are mostly known and no one begrudges him for it. I know the situations are not completely analogous (and Satoshi's hidden identity might be in part because of his holdings), but if more details are possible to combat any PR issues, it would be great to put them out there.

Just my 2 Dash.
 

fernando

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I first got some Dash about a year ago (when it was still Darkcoin), but have only recently been looking more into it. I didn't know anything about the instamine issue until a few weeks ago, and boy does it bring out the trolls! Personally, I don't really care who owns how much of a coin - what matters to me is the technology and economics of the coin, and if it can presently be fairly acquired and used. Frankly, the instamine doesn't impact a new investor in the least as that has already been priced in. What matters is its future potential as a currency.

However, I do think there is a need for transparency, and something like this statement is an important step. But I wonder if it doesn't go far enough. The details are pretty vague - it just says things like Evan has a lot of coins, but not the most; others also got a lot of coins early on, etc. I know a fundamental principle of Dash is privacy, but can more details be given, such as approx. how many Dash does Evan own, how many did he acquire the first 24 hours, etc.? Basically people just have to take your word for it now, with no blockchain evidence.

In the Bitcoin world, Satoshi's holdings are mostly known and no one begrudges him for it. I know the situations are not completely analogous (and Satoshi's hidden identity might be in part because of his holdings), but if more details are possible to combat any PR issues, it would be great to put them out there.

Just my 2 Dash.
First things first: welcome to the community and thanks for your comments!! It is great to have the perspective of someone who's not been around so much. We sometimes lose perspective.

Regarding more info, I don't think it is fair to ask anyone to declare all his holdings.

Satoshi's are known because he used his addresses publicly and the public nature of the blockchain makes it quite easy. If he had known the value the coins would eventually reach, he probably would have been more private. And he could have much more without us knowing. Which brings us to the fact that any declaration in this area could also be questioned by those who want to attack because there is no way to check.
 
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nmarley

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I know a fundamental principle of Dash is privacy, but can more details be given, such as approx. how many Dash does Evan own, how many did he acquire the first 24 hours, etc.? Basically people just have to take your word for it now, with no blockchain evidence.
I keep wondering to myself, why are people so interested in this? It doesn't change the fundamentals of the coin, the fact the it's the most fully-featured, has a solid management team, decentralized governance, a supportive community, etc. It's still designed extremely well from an economic perspective (tragedy of the commons problem solved through incentivisation).

Literally the only reason I can think of is that people are upset that some others got to make a lot of money quickly, and they didn't get that chance. Like someone screaming "that's not fair!", even though we all know that life isn't fair. The fundamentals are there... I just don't get why some people are so caught up on the "fairness" aspect.
 

tungfa

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i really do not understand it ether ?

I got into DRK when it was at 0.0004 BTC !!!
( :eek: )
but, i was so new to crypto, and honestly had no idea what i was doing
that i did not buy huge at all, but that is life !
others got in even earlier (X11) and others got in later
as in any other market.

Nobody is harassing Bill Gates about his Microsoft Stocks Portfolio
because that would just be ridiculous ;)
 

David

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However, I do think there is a need for transparency, and something like this statement is an important step. But I wonder if it doesn't go far enough. The details are pretty vague - it just says things like Evan has a lot of coins, but not the most; others also got a lot of coins early on, etc. I know a fundamental principle of Dash is privacy, but can more details be given, such as approx. how many Dash does Evan own, how many did he acquire the first 24 hours, etc.? Basically people just have to take your word for it now, with no blockchain evidence.
I agree completely.

Yes, Evan has the right to financial privacy just like the rest of us, and it's completely his choice whether to reveal the extent of his holdings. I personally think he should, for several reasons:

a) There was a large instamine, which I believe was accidental. But given this mistake and the opportunity to gain numerous coins, I think a definitive answer would be helpful.
b) He is the founder, which puts him under additional scrutiny.
c) He is the lead developer and the true visionary behind the project. The credibility he has within the community is enormous, as is his influence.
d) The budget system could be manipulated, at least in theory, by somebody who has enough coins. The founder, whose "vote yes for this" easily counts for 500 votes, could, in combination with his own masternodes, have unusually strong influence over budget proposals.

These four factors, in my opinion, are reasons why he should chose to waive his right to privacy with respect to his Dash holdings. It's like the public figure exception to slander/libel law: in the U.S. at least, you can get away with saying a *lot* more about a celebrity or politician or other public figure than you could about a regular person. Why do you think TMZ still exists? =)

It's entirely Evan's decision though, and we must respect his right to privacy. If he chooses to reveal his holdings, that's great. If not, that's his right too.

P.S. Elbereth has mentioned before that Evan has about 270 MNs, which he presumably deduced from voting records. I apologize if posting that here is inappropriate, but it's already been deduced by another person from public blockchain records. In theory he could have more Dash that isn't in masternodes, or some of his MNs could be run for friends and family.

P.P.S. Fernando is absolutely right--even if Evan did tell us how much Dash he owned, we'd still have to take his word for it. But I think such a declaration would be designed to inform those who already believe in Dash, not to refute the trolls. It's like my dad said when I pointed out that padlocks could be easily cut, allowing criminals entry into our yard. He pointed out that locks aren't intended to keep the criminals out; they are intended to keep honest people honest.
 

rustycase

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This is a significant issue to this day and affects PR to a great extent.
rc
 

rustycase

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Tnx !
I do feel the first presentation, linked by kot, to be be a superior presentation than by the fin tech geeks, though...
(and I shall query fernando regarding his reservations... it is an official DASH document. )

Circumstances have dictated I must review every single bit of the issue so I may understand the scenario better, in my own defense !
My personal reaction to hostility is an immediate and terse response.
Review of this material should assure I am well prepared to confront the problem directly, in a civil manner.

I am fully aware some persons are beyond any logical and forthright rebuttal.

Best
rc
 

mastermined

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mbgnkmp2

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Perhaps as a suggestion for the team, especially as DASH begins to get more and more attention from the cryptosphere and raging opposers who would be eager to diminish and downgrade DASH as a scam based on this fact alone, couldn't there be an external audit to put an end to this discussion by studying the coin distribution among the community and providing concrete numbers to everything related to this?

It would help making DASH more immune to this sort of trolling and loss of credibility by newcomers who, unknowledgeable of cryptocurrencies, DASH or what this event specifically means, would run at the first cry of "wolf" by an ill-intended person.
 

Goan Games

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We goan games have a Dash Core wallet but we have forgot the passphrase we tried a lot to remember it but we failed. In dash we dont have a option like other crypto currency forget password option so that we can put a new password which is wrong.
Because of this i have almost loose my Dash Coins. Dash should work on the forgot password linked because anyone can loose his passphrase than what he or she can do.
 
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I just don't get why some people are so caught up on the "fairness" aspect.[/QUOTE said:
I think it's down to one of two things:
Anything of bad appearance undermines confidence.
and
Any scam involves someone gaining at someone else's expense, and people worry that someone so obviously gaining by such an event means that they and others will lose.
 
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