Additional Network Layers and Governance v3

jeffh

Member
May 8, 2017
108
45
78
I think it's time to start thinking about the governance layer and the budget system as first class citizens on the Dash network.

Here's a quick little paper I wrote a couple of weeks ago with some of my ideas.

The diagram isn't all that great so feel free to ask questions and I can share more of the vision.

I'm looking for some feedback from the community and I think that it's worth having a discussion about this and beginning the conversation around what v3 of Dash Governance could look like.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Ftoole

Member
Aug 20, 2017
132
27
78
37
May people on this forum don’t open files from unknown people you might what to add the contents to this thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crypto Rob

djcrypto

Member
May 27, 2014
180
94
88
Love it.
Also, I clicked on the link and didn't die.
I would like to see this on DashDrive.
I don't think it would take up many resources and integrating it with DAPI would be a perfect solution.
Perhaps @Obusco could help.
 

thesavoyard

Member
Mar 15, 2017
143
40
78
44
Amsterdam
www.disaf.eu
Dash Address
Xp8WZRv9Papo21ySQE8ghtQDUxN6qoKzS6
I hope you don't mind, I linked them as a non-download JPG.

I would also like to add, a DDOS attack longer than 15 minutes is unlikely.
 

Vedran Yoweri

Active Member
Apr 29, 2015
334
152
113
I think it's time to start thinking about the governance layer and the budget system as first class citizens on the Dash network.
it's been a first class, decentralized citizen from it's inception. you confuse dashcentral with the dash governance system.
One of the problems being faced by the Dash Governance system is that of centralization. The basic component of the governance system relies on the work of one community individual, rango.
not true, nothing is centralized. dashcentral is not a component of the governance system. using dashcentral is completely optional. i've never used it. voting is easy with dashninja & dash-cli, even better with dmt. pre- and proposal discussions are done on the dash forum. i really dislike the whole idea of third parties for these essential functions.

from what i understand about this proposal it essentially the same as dashcentral but utilizing distributed tech. i don't see any advantages here.
 

AjM

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Jun 23, 2014
1,341
575
283
Finland
Dashcentral is third party site, it is NOT official system.
DAO and voting works fine without any third party site.
But it is eye candy and easy to use i agree.
 

jeffh

Member
May 8, 2017
108
45
78
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I know it’s Dashcentral technically isn’t a component of the governance system but if you don’t use it, then you’re just voting based off either their pre-proposal or off the ID.

I think it’s pretty safe to say the majority of us follow the link to see what additional information proposal owners have posted to justify the cost of their proposal.

I think that if Evolution allowed for voting through the DAPI instead of requiring DMT or the core wallet, and gave folks a good interface - then we might see voter participation rise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
1,253
795
183
it's been a first class, decentralized citizen from it's inception. you confuse dashcentral with the dash governance system.

not true, nothing is centralized. dashcentral is not a component of the governance system. using dashcentral is completely optional. i've never used it. voting is easy with dashninja & dash-cli, even better with dmt. pre- and proposal discussions are done on the dash forum. i really dislike the whole idea of third parties for these essential functions.

from what i understand about this proposal it essentially the same as dashcentral but utilizing distributed tech. i don't see any advantages here.
Dashcentral is not the governance system, but when the actual proposal submitted to the network only contains a URL pointing to where you are supposed to find the proposal details, and that URL points to dashcentral (or wherever), then obviously if there is a problem with Dashcentral (or wherever the URL points to), then it interferes with things. When someone submits a proposal in Dash and the proposal can only contain a URL, there is no guarantee that (1) the URL will necessarily always resolve to the same website, (2) the content of the website will remain unchanged either by the proposal owner or by a third party, and (3) the website will remain online and the data is able to be retrieved. Using a distributed solution mitigates all of these issues, how is that not an advantage?
 

AndyDark

Well-known Member
Sep 10, 2014
353
705
163
I think it's time to start thinking about the governance layer and the budget system as first class citizens on the Dash network.

Here's a quick little paper I wrote a couple of weeks ago with some of my ideas.

The diagram isn't all that great so feel free to ask questions and I can share more of the vision.

I'm looking for some feedback from the community and I think that it's worth having a discussion about this and beginning the conversation around what v3 of Dash Governance could look like.
thanks - like some comments above, DashCentral is an app that reads governance data from fullnodes and provides UIs for writing governance data via fullnodes, i.e. it's not part of the Dash protocol. Likewise your proposed implementation isn't within the Dash protocol but a layer to make it easier to do same (in a more redundant / decentralised way).

We are actually already working on the governance system V2. It's part of Evolution, which is a 2 layer system - we remove governance objects from layer one onto layer 2, with data stored in DashDrive, and use Quorums to mediate the governance results back to layer 1. So actually this kind of implementation wouldn't be needed, although it could still be built on top.
 

jeffh

Member
May 8, 2017
108
45
78
third-party.
url should be forum/proposal discussion. both interactions (blockchain / forum) under dash control.
I get where you’re coming from here but as the budget continues to scale, I don’t think managing $100M through a forum is the best approach.

You’re never going to get buy-in from larger businesses to become contributors if they have to use the current system, it’s an accessibility problem.

Let’s make sure we build not just for today, but for the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

AndyDark

Well-known Member
Sep 10, 2014
353
705
163
I get where you’re coming from here but as the budget continues to scale, I don’t think managing $100M through a forum is the best approach.

You’re never going to get buy-in from larger businesses to become contributors if they have to use the current system, it’s an accessibility problem.

Let’s make sure we build not just for today, but for the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep remember though that DashCentral is just a frontend to the governance system which is p2p itself. I guess there's not many alternative frontends because a) the gov system internals are pretty esoteric and b) DashCentral is a really good / usable site so high bar / lot of work to compete with.

I think we are on the same page, Evo design is solving the same problems your aiming to. The solution is DAPI based, i.e. raising proposals and voting via DAPI instead of DashCore. The Evo v2 gov solution is also highly flexible because you can assign lots of types of data to be fundable and anyone (with the required collateral) can vote on that.

PM me if you'd be interested in getting involved with the alpha when it's ready to develop applications around this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bhkien

jeffh

Member
May 8, 2017
108
45
78
Yep remember though that DashCentral is just a frontend to the governance system which is p2p itself. I guess there's not many alternative frontends because a) the gov system internals are pretty esoteric and b) DashCentral is a really good / usable site so high bar / lot of work to compete with.

I think we are on the same page, Evo design is solving the same problems your aiming to. The solution is DAPI based, i.e. raising proposals and voting via DAPI instead of DashCore. The Evo v2 gov solution is also highly flexible because you can assign lots of types of data to be fundable and anyone (with the required collateral) can vote on that.

PM me if you'd be interested in getting involved with the alpha when it's ready to develop applications around this.
Definitely on the same page, that last reply was meant more for the person above you than for you.

I’ll be in touch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: AndyDark

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
1,253
795
183
third-party.
url should be forum/proposal discussion. both interactions (blockchain / forum) under dash control.
I would rather it point to a distributed system that does not require trust, than one that is controlled by the dash team and is also a single point of failure. But since there may be something being developed as @AndyDark mentioned, we might end up with something that is both distributed and controlled by dash, which would be even better.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
PM me if you'd be interested in getting involved with the alpha when it's ready to develop applications around this.
Why you hide your code?
As long as you insist of following a closed source model, you will never become competitive.
You need as many eyes as possible to watch your alpha.
How is it possible for you to write valuable closed source code, when all programs you run are already based on millions of lines of open source code? Closed source model is a dead model, and you will fail if you follow it.
 

Vedran Yoweri

Active Member
Apr 29, 2015
334
152
113
The Evo v2 gov solution is also highly flexible because you can assign lots of types of data to be fundable and anyone (with the required collateral) can vote on that.
sounds great. please consider adding rfp proces so dash can ask the market what it wants proposed. could be used as beta to mature the tech.
 

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
2,869
1,081
1,183
Why you hide your code?
As long as you insist of following a closed source model, you will never become competitive.
You need as many eyes as possible to watch your alpha.
How is it possible for you to write valuable closed source code, when all programs you run are already based on millions of lines of open source code? Closed source model is a dead model, and you will fail if you follow it.
Now is not the time to worry about such things. Once the DAPI is live, I am very much hoping we can get a Core2 team going.
 

thesavoyard

Member
Mar 15, 2017
143
40
78
44
Amsterdam
www.disaf.eu
Dash Address
Xp8WZRv9Papo21ySQE8ghtQDUxN6qoKzS6
What I'd like to see for more advanced proposals. Larger and more complicated projects can involve sensitive information. A public forum is not always in the best interest of the Dash community. It allows competitors to steal ideas, sabotage projects and lets people who have no knowledge publically comment.

I'd like to see a secure means of communication between business and the Masternodes. With NDA function to protect proprietary information. A business may go another direction and seek traditional funding if they are forced to lay out their business plan to the public.
 

thesavoyard

Member
Mar 15, 2017
143
40
78
44
Amsterdam
www.disaf.eu
Dash Address
Xp8WZRv9Papo21ySQE8ghtQDUxN6qoKzS6
Why you hide your code?
As long as you insist of following a closed source model, you will never become competitive.
You need as many eyes as possible to watch your alpha.
How is it possible for you to write valuable closed source code, when all programs you run are already based on millions of lines of open source code? Closed source model is a dead model, and you will fail if you follow it.
Dash is not publishing their updates as open source until it is ready for release, there's too much competition and too many people who would undermine them. Protecting information is important now that Dash is a major player.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bhkien

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Dash is not publishing their updates as open source until it is ready for release, there's too much competition and too many people who would undermine them. Protecting information is important now that Dash is a major player.
This centralized way to develop software has been proved wrong. You need as many people as possible to watch your bugs (and especially your design bugs) from the very beginning. Go on and follow the closed source model. Your failure is assured.
 

UdjinM6

Official Dash Dev
Dash Core Team
Moderator
May 20, 2014
3,639
3,537
1,183
Wow, 4 (FOUR!) contributions in three years. Watch out Peter Wuille.

How many commits does Evan Duffield have to Bitcoin Core? How many lines of Bitcoin Core code did he use to make his Instamined billion dollar fortune?

If the TAWP-SEKRIT technology in Evolution is so great, why don't you contribute it to Bitcoin Core first? You could use BTC as a guinea pig, to make sure Evolution's new features work in production. Think about how much it would raise Dash's profile if Bitcoin copied Evolution!
I'm not working on Bitcoin, I'm working on Dash. And thus I contribute back when I discover an issue in backported code, I don't look for issues in Bitcoin code specifically.
Evo can't work on Bitcoin - they will never integrate masternodes and having masternodes is one of the major design requirements.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Evo can't work on Bitcoin - they will never integrate masternodes and having masternodes is one of the major design requirements.
Have you ever proposed a BitcoinImprovementProposal regarding masternodes, and the bitcoin community refused it? If yes, where is your BIP? If no, then how do you know they will never intergrate masternodes?

Write a BIP as @UdjinM6, and offer it to the bitcoin community. If they deny your BIP, then you are right complaining. But if the Bitcoin community accepts your masternodes-BIP (or an improved masternodes-BIP which wiill be based and will respect your core ideas about governance) then, upon the common decision of the Dash masternodes and the Bitcoin masternodes, you should be able (and be ready) to merge Dash blockchain with Bitcoin blockchain. This blockchain merge requires another BIP/DIP, of course.
 
Last edited:

Coqui33

Member
Oct 16, 2017
57
26
58
81
I see no need for this proposal. Also, the ad hominem slinging that started with an irrelevant debate over open- vs. closed-source code is demeaning to this forum. Take it outside, children.
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
1,253
795
183
such as the failure mode now occurring as overpaid MN staking cannibalizes vital revenue needed to keep the PoW ecosystem healthy.
There's no evidence that the PoW ecosystem is unhealthy. Everyone whining about mining profitability for weeks and yet the hashrate is still going up.
 

Plateglassarmour

New Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Mar 23, 2017
22
17
3
27
I love the idea.

My first thought is that once you have the platform, it would be easy to have "tiers" of proposals to look through.

There would of course be the full, ready proposals featured front and center; but you could also have a separate level for pre-proposals or small projects (<10 dash) that wouldn't make sense to have a full proposal for, but that could be evaluated in the same manner, by any masternodes that have spare time/attention from the "big" projects.

You could remove the 10% voting threshold requirement, and have the projects funded by a sub-dao fund that has a normal, recurring proposal to get funding, but that disperses the funds without having the same requirements for a proposal fee.

Like you mentioned, it could function like kickstarter where all these "mini-proposals" are sorted by category, and masternodes could drop in and evaluate whatever category they feel like they are qualified to evaluate and have the time/attention for.

It would solve a lot of the problems people are complaining about in terms of the high proposal fee, without swamping the masternodes with a deluge of tiny proposals to sort through if they only want to evaluate the "important" ones.
 
Last edited: