Should Platform run on all nodes or should Platform run only on High Performance nodes ?

[vazaki3]

No, Dash DAO is not a social system. It is the governance system for the financial network.
Utopian ideologies never do and did any good for business environment - so f**k social justice and socialist lunatics playing emotions.

Utopian ideologies ? What are you talking about? How bitcoin started, remember? Who was initially invited into bitcoin? The fat rich lazy dollar guys, or the hackers? What kind of problem bitcoin tried to solve? Wasnt a social problem that bitcoin tried to solve? The Bitcoin hackers, having not a single USD in their pocket, they changed the definition of money, and tried to turn the money of the bankers into obsolete objects. The bitcoin hackers failed, but their descendands still try.

You dont know how to write a single line of code Kot, you are of these kind of persons that every hacker society detests. Your stupid theory about money and society, your unconditional surrender to the dollar guys, combined to the fact that you were DCG for a long time, is one of the main reasons for Dash's decline. As an active member of the previous DCG board, you encouraged and caused (or at least tolerated) the marginalization of both miners and of privacy/anonymity advocates (not to mention the imense censorship that occured in the past in this very forum of which I am a victim) . This attitude forced many usefull members of our community to migrate to other coins. Go on, continue your destructive work. The fat rich lazy dollar guys will save neither you, nor the Dash cryptocurrency.

If you launch a censored version of the DashPlatform (as quantumexplorer plans) or if you steal the rewards from the 1-3k sardines (most of them are Dash hackers), many usefull members of our community will just migrate to another coin. And then aristocracy will win plutocracy. It always does.

 

[kot]

Actually, I wrote hundreds of thousands lines of code in my life.
And it still doesn't make me interested in fucking socialism (I'm not even sure how do you connects those dots). I have lived almost half of my life under socialistic regime - that was a true misery. Never again - I will fight social justice parasites everywhere.

 

[vazaki3]

Actually, I wrote hundreds of thousands of lines of code in my life.

So where are your code contributions here in Dash? You wrote hundreds of thousands of lines of code for whom, and for what purpose?

And it still doesn't make me interested in fucking socialism (I'm not even sure how do you connects those dots). I have lived almost half of my life under socialistic regime - that was a true misery. Never again - I will fight social justice parasites everywhere.

Do not confuse socialism with society. It is not the same. Social structures is both socialism and capitalism, and whatever.

Every gathering of more than one persons, forms a society. And a society has social rules.

A very common and very strong social rule is to not steal the rewards of a social group that participates in the society. If you break that rule, war begins.

You and babygirafe decided to reduce the miners' rewards, now your descendands are trying to reduce the rewards from the 1-3k sardines.
Dash's price hit the bottom due to your decisions, and will continue to fall if you continue that path.

 

[vazaki3]

Do not confuse socialism with society. It is not the same. Social structures is both socialism , and capitalism, and whatever.
Every gathering of more than one persons, forms a society. And a society has social rules.
A very common and very strong social rule is to not steal the rewards of a social group that participates in the society. If you break that rule, war begins.

You and babygirafe stole the miners' rewards, now your descendands are trying to steal the rewards from the 1-3k sardines.
Dash's price hit the bottom due to your decisions, and will continue to fall if you continue that path.

Another very common and very strong social rule is not to divide the members of a society, not to cause fights and quarrels among them.

On the other hand, whoever is an enemy of a social group and wants to destroy it, he encourages the "divide and conquer" method.

Thats what you and babygiraffe did to the miners and to the privacy advocates, thats what your descendands (quantumexplorer etc) continue doing to the 1-3k sardines.

By your decisions, you divide the Dash community instead of unifying it. Why?
Is it because you want Dash to be conquered by the fat rich lazy dollar guys? Do you want Dash to follow the failed path of bitcoin? Did someone hired you to do that job?

 

[rion]

Dash DAO is a social system. Maybe not a justy system, but a social system for sure. Every decentralized system that consists of more than one individuals, is a society system by definition. Trying to ignore the social impacts of a DAO is very short sighted.

Dash is an economy. That implies both social and financial issues. You're both right.

 

[vazaki3]

The 4k HPMN option has just reached funding! https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/analysis/?20221214111002

DASH 'Strider' Dolphin Watch (mnowatch.org)

Strider, a 24dolphin that has NEVER voted before, a dash community member that remained silent since 2018, a dolphin discovered by @xkcd since 2022-03-17 through blockchain analysis , voted for the first time a few hours ago and in favor of 4k_HPMN!!!

And of course this individuality was discoverd by mnowatch! What an amazing work mnowatch is doing! Good job @xkcd!!
I am impressed by the depth of information that mnowatch site has.

The agents are throwing their reserve troops in the DashPlatform battle. The fate of 1-3k sardines is predetermined. Destined to be eaten. --- Striders on the Storm!

 

[xkcd]

You and babygirafe decided to reduce the miners' rewards, now your descendands are trying to reduce the rewards from the 1-3k sardines.

The fate of 1-3k sardines is predetermined. Destined to be eaten. --- Striders on the Storm!

I gotta correct this, because the 4k and 10k solutions do not disadvantage the sardines! Though a portion of the masternode rewards is taken from the PoW L1 chain and fed into the PoS L2 chain as an incentive to run platform, when nodes leave the 1k pool and consolidate to 4k, the payment queue for the sardines shortens. So, while their payout will be less, it will also be more frequent and as such under the 4k system they are projected to end up getting the same amount of Dash each month as before. If we vote for the 10k option, then the sardines would actually be better off and get even more each month than they get now.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Being social and socialism is not the same thing. No cryptocurrency can ever expect to be money without being social, it is a necessity. The numbers for individuality represents how social dash is. The fewer individuals, the more isolated and less social it is.

DCG argues that HPMNs does nothing to change the quantity of individuality, it simply enforces transparency of individuality. I take on this challenge and ask everyone that cares enough to donate to mnowatch (or start their own independent audit), that we can out anyone found of voting abuse.

The higher collateral creates social division between regular MNOs and HPMNOs. It also sends a message to the world that DCG is incompetent or lazy to foster wider masternode participation. MN shares do not sufficiently counter HPMNs as it severely limits choice of geographic location for MNs. We can say it is inadequate decentralization because there is still only one entity responsible for the upkeep, regardless how "trusted" they are.

See this globally coordinate Interpol takedown to understand how important individuality is:

Hundreds arrested and millions seized in global INTERPOL operation against social engineering scams

International police cooperation targets telecommunication fraud, business mail compromise (BEC) and associated money laundering

www.interpol.int

- 1770 locations raided worldwide
- Some 3000 suspects identified
- Some 2000 operators, fraudsters and money launderers arrested
- Some 4000 bank accounts frozen
- Some USD 50 million worth of illicit funds intercepted

 

[AgnewPickens]

My main concern is that Platform, as an experimental sidechain, does not impact core functionality
if Platform is halted. Running Platform on all nodes risks that. Though there are 1K solutions or
roundabouts there that would reduce the risk to Core, do we really want to die on this hill? We are
not even sure there is a market for Platform services outside the Dash community.

 

[peter]

I gotta correct this

This is nice. But how many times? We read this again and again, it's endless.
vazaki3: they steal the rewards
xkcd: I gotta correct this
vazaki3: they steal the rewards
xkcd: I gotta correct this
vazaki3: they steal the rewards
xkcd: I gotta correct this
...

It seems, that there are a lot of things, that vazaki3 just refuses to understand.
IMHO any dialogue with him/her is useless...

 

[kot]

Dash is an economy. That implies both social and financial issues. You're both right.

We were discussing Dash DAO, not the Dash economy. DAO is just a governance system - decision making process to be more precise.

I know very well the difference between society, social issues and socialism. I don't confuse them. He was writing pure socialist rhetorics, I am very familiar with from my own life experience, and I wholeheartedly detest.

Sardines good, whales bad -> working class good, capitalists bad.
Whales steal rewards from sardines -> capitalists steal from the working class.
We need more sardines and less whales -> we need more working class and eliminate capitalists.
We need to protect sardines -> party needs to protect working class.
mnowatch does a great job, it hunts down sleeping agents -> KGB protects working class from spies and agents.
etc. I don't even want to continue. F**k that.

Socialists and their twisted rhetorics (it is always about protection, society and equality) were so successful in the mankind history.
They generated so much prosperity, wealth, equality and progress in so many places around the world that it is obvious, we need it here. Oh wait...

 

[kot]

It seems, that there are a lot of things, that vazaki3 just refuses to understand.
IMHO any dialogue with him/her is useless...

Well. He suffers from mental disorders (manic personality, graphomaniac) and I regret each time, I engage in discussion with him. Total waste of time and energy.
EOT for me. Let's talk about something useful and important.

 

[vazaki3]

I gotta correct this, because the 4k and 10k solutions do not disadvantage the sardines! Though a portion of the masternode rewards is taken from the PoW L1 chain and fed into the PoS L2 chain as an incentive to run platform, when nodes leave the 1k pool and consolidate to 4k, the payment queue for the sardines shortens. So, while their payout will be less, it will also be more frequent and as such under the 4k system they are projected to end up getting the same amount of Dash each month as before. If we vote for the 10k option, then the sardines would actually be better off and get even more each month than they get now.

I have already answered to this argument.

Yes..it is reasonable whatever you said.
But what about the rewards? Why excluding the 1k masternodes from the expected future wealth? Why the 1k, at the best scenario, should stack at the same ROI, while the 4k/10k will become richer and richer?

DCG said that for the 4k_HPMN, at the best case the 1-3k sardines will earn exactly as much as they earn now. But there is also the worst case....
And of course the 1-3k sardines will not benefit from the potential wealth produced by Dashplatform. All the wealth goes to the 4k and more.

Have you seen Rion's video?

As you can see above in Rion's superb video , if the 4k(10k) proposal passes the economic analysis reveal that it will result the reduction of masternodes from 5000 to 2500(2180).

The economic analysis reveals that we will have an extinction of the 1-3k sardines because their scheme will not be economicaly viable.
If the 4k_HPMN proposal passes, the number of masternodes is DESIGNED to decrease from 5000 to 2500 nodes!!!!

The agents want to reduce the number of masternodes, in order to control the Dash network. It is that simple.

On the other hand, I mainly care about the voters, and I want to increase their number. The below is my pre-proposal for the DashPlatform issue.

I believe that the correct vote/pray (for the branch of the Dash knowledge tree we are discussing in this thread) is:
1) Dashplatform should be launched initially by the discovered individualities of mnowatch.org , one node each. <--real decentralization, incentivizes the increase of the voters
2) Let the DashPlatform launch standalone in the free market, without asking any masternode rewards. <--NO to a Dashplatform fed by MN rewards, this is statism
3) Offer Dashplatform shares to all the masternodes, allowing them to be paid in case the Dashplatform becomes profitable in the free market. <-- unify the dash community, in contrast to the "divide and conquer" method of DCG
4) Turn the Dashplatform profitable by creating an app that will support the creation of a Dash knowledge tree. This decision tree will be replicated everywhere in the platform and people will vote/pray on it, add or delete branches of it, and comment on it (by paying the relevant platform fee). <-- governance without amanda's chief
5) Make the tree an absolute commitment for all the developers of DCG, so that no DCG development is allowed in case there is not a relevant branch of the tree that allows it. <-- accountable developers

 

[xkcd]

I have already answered to this argument.


DCG said that for the 4k_HPMN, at the best case the 1-3k sardines will earn exactly as much as they earn now. But there is also the worst case....
And of course the 1-3k sardines will not benefit from the potential wealth produced by Dashplatform. All the wealth goes to the 4k and more.

Have you seen Rion's video?


The economic analysis reveals that we will have an extinction of the 1-3k sardines because their scheme will not be economicaly viable.
If the 4k_HPMN proposal passes, the number of masternodes is DESIGNED to decrease from 5000 to 2500 nodes!!!!

The agents want to reduce the number of masternodes, in order to control the Dash network. It is that simple.

On the other hand, I mainly care about the voters, and I want to increase their number. The below is my pre-proposal for the DashPlatform issue.

I do not agree with this because if the ROI is better for the 4k Masternodes, then more people will combine their 1K collaterals and move to that pool, this will have the effect of increasing the ROI for the sardines. Thanks to MNOwatch, we know that there are more than enough people with 4k or more Dash to create plenty of 4K Masternodes, so that won't be an issue. Of course we will track the pool sizes and ROI on MNOwatch.org, but I fully expect the ROI to equalise between the two groups, the sardines are safe!

Further, not only are the sardines safe, but they have greater power in the network after this change, for example, since sardines run 4 nodes for every 4k Dash, they will be more in control of any hard fork we make in the future. Hard forks may impact the 4k nodes, so in terms of network upgrades, sardines will have 4x more power than the HPMNs. They will be making important decisions on the shape of the network going forward.

 

[vazaki3]

I do not agree with this because if the ROI is better for the 4k Masternodes, then more people will combine their 1K collaterals and move to the 4k pool, this will have the effect of increasing the ROI for the sardines. Thanks to MNOwatch, we know that there are more than enough people with 4k or more Dash to create plenty of 4K Masternodes, so that won't be an issue. Of course we will track the pool sizes and ROI on MNOwatch.org, but I fully expect the ROI to equalise between the two groups, the sardines are safe!

Further, not only are the sardines safe, but they have greater power in the network after this change, for example, since sardines run 4 nodes for every 4k Dash, they will be more in control of any hard fork we make in the future. Hard forks may impact the 4k nodes, so in terms of network upgrades, sardines will have 4x more power than the HPMNs. They will be making important decisions on the shape of the network going forward.

Can four individuals combine their 1k collaterals to a common 4k collateral? How this can happen? Where is this documented by DCG? How this can be implemented or facilitated?

And what about the designed huge reduction of the number of masternodes, in case 4k_HPMN passes? Doesn't that worry you?
Look at @rion 's video--> Dash Platform Node Model Explanation - YouTube

4k_HPMN (voluntary) scenario:
platform nodes count : 460
masternode nodes count: 1960
masternode + platform nodes count: 2420

From currently 3800 nodes, Dash will fall to 2400 nodes!!!! 1400 nodes less!!! THIS IS A DISASTER!!!

 

[qwizzie]

It will be interesting to see how marketing Dash Platform from within the Dash community will work exactly, when that same Dash community is clearly conflicted about Dash Platform startup options.

Who will recommend Dash Platform to their family members and friends, when CTO of Dash Core Group himself stated that there are risks involved with setting up Platform nodes (new code and all)

while at the same time there is a strong reluctness from the same CTO of Dash Core Group to undertake a third party security audit on Dash Platform .. independently testing all that new code by a third party.

I will certainly not promote Dash Platform to any of my friends or family, i feel no inclination to do this whatsoever. Hell, I am not even sure Dash Platform is safe to use. So who will do the marketing ?

DCG ? with their track record ?
Those few large masternode whale entities who supported the 4K HPM solution and made it pass ?
Those MNO's that voted against 4K and 10k HPM proposals or those Dash community members that understand the centralization risk to Dash Platform ?
Those MNO's that voted for the 4K and 10k HPM proposals ?

It is a shame that the longterm Dash community unifying end goal (Dash Evolution), is now fracturing this Dash community and creating conflict.
I also wonder if this could have been avoided with more foresight from DCG, and with perhaps more openness to the Dash community about Dash Platform limitations and safety issues with regards to its PoS sidechain setup. I guess we will never know.

 

[kot]

I will certainly not promote Dash Platform to any of my friends or family, i feel no inclination to do this whatsoever.

And you are right. This is not a product for the friends and family. This product is targeted for quite specifically experienced developers and engineers.
So, unless your relatives and friends are hardcore-blockchain devs, there is no need to mention about the platform.

 

[amanda_b_johnson]

Question:

How much of the viability of the 4k HPMN suggestion is reliant on the accuracy of MNOwatch's assumptions about masternode ownership distribution?

I.e. What if, for whatever reason, MNOwatch's assumptions are 5% off? 15% off? 25% or 35% or more?

Is such a thing possible? Surely no one assumes that no MNO has ever tried to conceal his cluster by acting in ways that are contrary to MNOwatch's grouping methods?

 

[vazaki3]

Question:

How much of the viability of the 4k HPMN suggestion is reliant on the accuracy of MNOwatch's assumptions about masternode ownership distribution?

I.e. What if, for whatever reason, MNOwatch's assumptions are 5% off? 15% off? 25% or 35% or more?

Is such a thing possible? Surely no one assumes that no MNO has ever tried to conceal his cluster by acting in ways that are contrary to MNOwatch's grouping methods?

The voting information is all there in mnowatch, under the Creative Commons 3 license.
But the grouping may be considered subjective.
For example, why grouping by using the IPs rather than the Masternode Ids?
Why an individuality is defined when he/she has uniquely voted for 500 reports, and not for 400 reports?

I encourage everyone to download the voting information from mnowatch, search the votes and the blockchain, try different groupings and compare their results to mnowatch's results.

 

[xkcd]

Question:

How much of the viability of the 4k HPMN suggestion is reliant on the accuracy of MNOwatch's assumptions about masternode ownership distribution?

I.e. What if, for whatever reason, MNOwatch's assumptions are 5% off? 15% off? 25% or 35% or more?

Is such a thing possible? Surely no one assumes that no MNO has ever tried to conceal his cluster by acting in ways that are contrary to MNOwatch's grouping methods?

Generally, people act to conceal their collections, so whales prefer to appear as dolphins, and the dolphins prefer to appear as sardines, if anything, there are more clusters than MNOwatch has identified. So, for sure, plenty of people capable to run 4k nodes, even 10k nodes.