Won't Evolution push MN rewards from today's 8.33% to almost zero due to massive increase in MNs?

R

RGXDK

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Current masternode rewards are 8.32%. With "savings accounts" in Evolution, everyone will be able to put their Dash to be used by other people to create masternodes.

1. Won't this result in a massive increase in the number of MN, pushing the rewards to a much lower value than it is today? I'm thinking less than 1%.

2. How exactly will the network decide who will get to create those MN? Say 5 people put up 200 mn in their savings account so they have 1k Dash together and 100 people are interested in setting up a masternode, how is this going to play out?

3. A 6-8% ROI makes Dash attractive, however a 1% might negate that due to it's emission rate.

If anyone has more info I would love to read more about it. Opinions and general comments are also much welcomed. Please let me know if I've made a mistake on my assumptions too.

Thank you.
 
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jimbursch

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More MNs provide more service to the network -- more nodes, more bandwidth, more storage, more security -- which is good for the network, especially since Evo will demand additional services. This is a good thing.

Yes, more MNs means less yield on collateral, so there will be an equilibrium -- a point at which it is not profitable to add another MN to the network. This would also be a point at which adding another MN is just wasteful because the network is adequately serviced.
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
More MNs provide more service to the network -- more nodes, more bandwidth, more storage, more security -- which is good for the network, especially since Evo will demand additional services. This is a good thing.

Yes, more MNs means less yield on collateral, so there will be an equilibrium -- a point at which it is not profitable to add another MN to the network. This would also be a point at which adding another MN is just wasteful because the network is adequately serviced.
Thanks for your reply. What is your evidence to support this equilibrium?
 

Instacoins

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The point would be reach as soon as hosting costs overtake the MN return. As soon as that happens MNs might get moved to china (just like we saw it in bitcoin mining. First you could do it from everywhere and it made money; like MNs currently. At some point it might Change). I dont see there anything bad. Its unpreventable.
 

TroyDASH

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What is your basis for getting that number -1-2%?

If the number of masternodes doubles, then the percentage reward halves. Right now there aren't even enough coins to create 8000 Masternodes if every coin was used towards collateral, so it would be 4% minimum. Of course this will decrease over time as the block reward goes down.
 
R

RGXDK

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What is your basis for getting that number -1-2%?
If the number of masternodes doubles, then the percentage reward halves. Right now there aren't even enough coins to create 8000 Masternodes if every coin was used towards collateral, so it would be 4% minimum. Of course this will decrease over time as the block reward goes down.
It's in my message: "With "savings accounts" in Evolution, everyone will be able to put their Dash to be used by other people to create masternodes. ". When millions of people can just put their little Dash into basically masternode shares with a click of a button, the number of masternodes is not going to double, it's going to 10x-50x.
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
The point would be reach as soon as hosting costs overtake the MN return. As soon as that happens MNs might get moved to china (just like we saw it in bitcoin mining. First you could do it from everywhere and it made money; like MNs currently. At some point it might Change). I dont see there anything bad. Its unpreventable.
Amanda ( @amanda_b_johnson, big fan of your work Amanda! ) is going around promoting "masternodes are earning $1000/mo, passively. Better than most rental properties.". That won't be true when evolution comes along. She does mention "as of today", but since Evolution is just a few months away...

Tweets with replies by Amanda B. Johnson AmandaB_Johnson  Twitter 2017-05-28 at 11.05.31 AM.png
Tweets with replies by Amanda B. Johnson AmandaB_Johnson  Twitter 2017-05-28 at 11.05.31 AM.png
 
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TroyDASH

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It's in my message: "With "savings accounts" in Evolution, everyone will be able to put their Dash to be used by other people to create masternodes. ". When millions of people can just put their little Dash into basically masternode shares with a click of a button, the number of masternodes is not going to double, it's going to 10x-50x.
There cant be more Masternodes than the total coin supply divided by 1000, even if a billion people put in their life savings.
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
There cant be more Masternodes than the total coin supply divided by 1000, even if a billion people put in their life savings.
Good point! Supply ~= 8mn / 1000 = 8000 masternodes max. If the network can have a maximum of 8,000 masternodes, then what will happen if I put my dash into the Savings account at evolution and no more masternodes can be created?

Also if there is a cap on the number of masternodes, then we could calculate the minimum reward a masternode will receive
today 4k masternodes -> 8%,
8k masternodes -> 4%,
16k masternodes -> 2%
18k masternodes (maximum coin supply) ~1-2%

Does my logic makes sense?
 

acidburn

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May 26, 2014
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But surely the more nodes = higher costs to invest?

If higher cost then the 1% reward doesn't matter? That 1 payout a month might be worth £2,000?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
But surely the more nodes = higher costs to invest?

If higher cost then the 1% reward doesn't matter? That 1 payout a month might be worth £2,000?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The absolute value of the payout doesn't matter, what matters is the ROI (%). It applies to masternodes, mining, dividends, businesses etc.
 

TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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Good point! Supply ~= 8mn / 1000 = 8000 masternodes max. If the network can have a maximum of 8,000 masternodes, then what will happen if I put my dash into the Savings account at evolution and no more masternodes can be created?

Also if there is a cap on the number of masternodes, then we could calculate the minimum reward a masternode will receive
today 4k masternodes -> 8%,
8k masternodes -> 4%,
16k masternodes -> 2%
18k masternodes (maximum coin supply) ~1-2%

Does my logic makes sense?
The "shares" would always be contributing towards a masternode collateral, its just a question of how much of the collateral or how much of the total combined collateral it is.

Yes I agree with that model -- when the MNs doubles then the reward, as a percentage, halves.

I don't know as to your other question of the "how" or the "who" with respect to the Masternodes that are created from savings account shares.

Over the long term, you are right that the percentage rewards cannot continue to stay relatively high as long as the coin supply has a maximum. At that point I think we have to think about ROI in a different way, because unlike fiat, a coin with a max supply is deflationary, not inflationary.
 

acidburn

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May 26, 2014
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But my point still stands. The value paid out in fiat will go ip


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

camosoul

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I see a lot of assumptions being made in this thread.

Evolution in a few months? I'm questioning if it will happen at all. And even if it does, will it be so far behind everyone else that it doesn't matter? There has been about 2 years of jacking off and doing not one damned thing, priorities are completely head up ass...

Coin supply reduced to basically zero, but price won't go up? Really? Is this how the market works?

The concept of masternodes is going to disappear and we'll have nothing but these "savings accounts?" Or we somehow have both? Are we forgetting that there is going to be manual, human arbitration added? Could not these things be independent concepts? Has the means for this function ever been mentioned? Where are you getting this information? Consider the extreme left-fringe kill all business neo-Bolshevik attitude of 98% of those involved with DASH... Once this arbitration model gets implemented and every arbiter sides against the vendors with zero consideration of facts or reality... "ask for arbitration, get free stuff." It's going to be worse than the chargeback system. Wasn't the whole point of crypto that the transactions aren't reversible?

Not to mention, other forms of investment. This isn't operating in a vacuum. If the APY becomes low enough or the difficulty of implementation high enough, there will be better places to put the money for better yield. Much lower than 7% and it isn't worth my time. If I have to share 50/50 with do-nothing "savings accounts," I'm out. So will be everyone else with the capacity to do basic math. If I can't walk away with at least 7%, I can easily find alternatives where I can. Since MNs hit the $100k mark, growth in MN count has been pretty small... For a halving of payout, I'd predict a little more than an order of magnitude increase in fiat value. But, would it ever get that far?

All levels of DASH, from leadership to fanboys, seem to think everything else in the world has disappeared and DASH is the only game in town for everything forever. Massive ego tripping, yes-man worship, perspectives distorted into bizarre delusions... Do you really think DASH will get that far? It's already falling apart...
 
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TroyDASH

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If I have to share 50/50 with do-nothing "savings accounts," I'm out.
You would share if it was the difference between having 1 masternode, versus having 2 Masternodes and sharing 50/50 on the second one.
 

Instacoins

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I dont think its falling apart at all. Its a great concept. And if you have better ideas feel free to fork.
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
The "shares" would always be contributing towards a masternode collateral, its just a question of how much of the collateral or how much of the total combined collateral it is.

Yes I agree with that model -- when the MNs doubles then the reward, as a percentage, halves.

I don't know as to your other question of the "how" or the "who" with respect to the Masternodes that are created from savings account shares.

Over the long term, you are right that the percentage rewards cannot continue to stay relatively high as long as the coin supply has a maximum. At that point I think we have to think about ROI in a different way, because unlike fiat, a coin with a max supply is deflationary, not inflationary.
I found this post on Dash's inflation rate.
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/inflation-rate-of-major-cryptocurrencies.1077

Does the minimum MN ROI make sense?

Workbook2 2017-05-28 at 11.45.50 AM.png
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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I found this post on Dash's inflation rate.
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/inflation-rate-of-major-cryptocurrencies.1077

Does the minimum MN ROI make sense?

View attachment 4163
Yes. But that is assuming that every coin is going to be part of a masternode share. The number of actual Masternodes is going to be lower than the max total that could potentially exist, so the effective rates will be higher. Secondly, measuring ROI denominated in dash is different than measuring ROI denominated in fiat, because fiat is inflationary with no maximum supply.
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
I see a lot of assumptions being made in this thread.

Evolution in a few months? I'm questioning if it will happen at all. And even if it does, will it be so far behind everyone else that it doesn't matter? There has been about 2 years of jacking off and doing not one damned thing, priorities are completely head up ass...

Coin supply reduced to basically zero, but price won't go up? Really? Is this how the market works?

The concept of masternodes is going to disappear and we'll have nothing but these "savings accounts?" Or we somehow have both? Are we forgetting that there is going to be manual, human arbitration added? Could not these things be independent concepts? Has the means for this function ever been mentioned? Where are you getting this information?

Not to mention, other forms of investment. This isn't operating in a vacuum. If the APY becomes low enough or the difficulty of implementation high enough, there will be better places to put the money for better yield. Much lower than 7% and it isn't worth my time. If I have to share 50/50 with do-nothing "savings accounts," I'm out. So will be everyone else with the capacity to do basic math. If I can't walk away with at least 7%, I can easily find alternatives where I can.

All levels of DASH, from leadership to fanboys, seem to think everything else in the world has disappeared and DASH is the only game in town for everything forever. Massive ego tripping, yes-man worship, perspectives distorted into bizarre delusions... Do you really think DASH will get that far? It's already falling apart...
I agree that Masternode owners should receive substantially more than "do nothing savings account". That's one of the reasons why I left Pivx. You get 4.53 pivx/day for for running a masternode and 4.42pivx/day for just "staking" the same number of coins in your wallet. Does anyone have more info on that?

Why exactly is dash falling apart in your opinion?
 

camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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Why exactly is dash falling apart in your opinion?
A combination of corruption and cluelessness.

A bunch of homeless SJWs have been put in charge of the purse, which is free money for nothing with no consequences for making dumb choices. This leads to DASH getting a lot of egg on it's face, but no one smart enough to realize the only feedback loop is looking like a bunch of fools. Add in the echo chamber of leadership refusing to listen to anything but these same yes men that will vote for shit in a hat with no idea how to follow up or stop giving away money to obvious bad ideas and scams. None of these people have been in a position of success before, they have no idea how to STAY there. The most glaring issue has been failure to capitalize on IX. It's been left to rot on the vine for 2 years while every other brain in crypto figures out a way to implement their own version. Ignoring the external feedback, paying attention only to the suckernode yes-man rubes... IX can't even be used in it's current condition. It's the idea of instantly SECURED payments that mattered, not the particular implementation. Especially since the very coin, DASH, which came up with the idea still has a broken implementation of it's own idea 2 years later...

Please show me a part of DASH trajectory that's not falling apart... The coders are hard at work. Yup. On all the wrong things. Priorities are completely backwards.

The lead has been lost to at least a dozen other projects, yet they plod on as if they're the only show in town. It reminds me of Detroit Automakers. They think they can dictate the marketplace to the consumer, even as the sands slide out from under their feet... They prefer the pleasant words of the yes men and delude themselves.

The 4th man's dark, accusing song had scratched their comfort hard and long... Call him a trol, put him on the ignore list. Doesn't matter that he's 100% right.

In time, there will be none left to hang but themselves.
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
A combination of corruption and cluelessness.

A bunch of homeless SJWs have been put in charge of the purse, which is free money for nothing with no consequences for making dumb choices. This leads to DASH getting a lot of egg on it's face, but no one smart enough to realize the only feedback loop is looking like a bunch of fools. Add in the echo chamber of leadership refusing to listen to anything but these same yes men that will vote for shit in a hat with no idea how to follow up or stop giving away money to obvious bad ideas and scams. None of these people have been in a position of success before, they have no idea how to STAY there. The most glaring issue has been failure to capitalize on IX. It's been left to rot on the vine for 2 years while every other brain in crypto figures out a way to implement their own version. Ignoring the external feedback, paying attention only to the suckernode yes-man rubes... IX can't even be used in it's current condition. It's the idea of instantly SECURED payments that mattered, not the particular implementation. Especially since the very coin, DASH, which came up with the idea still has a broken implementation of it's own idea 2 years later...

Please show me a part of DASH trajectory that's not falling apart... The coders are hard at work. Yup. On all the wrong things. Priorities are completely backwards.

The lead has been lost to at least a dozen other projects, yet they plod on as if they're the only show in town. It reminds me of Detroit Automakers. They think they can dictate the marketplace to the consumer, even as the sands slide out from under their feet...
I don't see a single argument or actionable point in your rant. Vague, ad hominem, metaphors, exaggerations etc. I understand you're upset so perhaps you want to contribute when you're calmer?
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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I don't see a single argument or actionable point in your rant.
Lols, I'm perfectly calm. Making up some "state of mind" ad hominem, while trying to invoke the same accusation... Snoflake propaganda doesn't fix anything even f you think it makes you look cool

If a man stands in front of you, stabs out his own eyes, and then declares that he can't see the problem... He is the problem.

1) IX is broken. It was DASH's only real claim to innovation.
2) Tons of time wasted on backwards priorities and simply doing nothing at all.
3) A screwed up budget system governed by clueless rubes.

If you fixed #1, and still had the other problems, it would still work out. But all of this at once... And refusing to address it for 2 years...

I get it. You're emotionally invested and you don't like someone talking bad about your pet... This is exactly the sort of emotion-based silliness that got DASH inn this predicament.
 

Tallyho

Member
Mar 15, 2015
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Please explain how InstantSend is broken? Kraken has implemented it supposedly after extensive testing.
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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Why should instantSend not work exactly?
IX currently must be initiated by the sender. IF the recipient doesn't know how it works and doesn't have a tool to check, the sender can simply not use it an initiate a double-spend just the same as any other coin. Worse, even if it can be detected, it monkey-wrenches the flow of the retail checkout process. You now have to step aside, wait for confirmations, maybe send it back, who knows... It's a clusterfuck.

IX could be (and is being by other projects) simplified. Simply attach a lock VIN lock request /w fee to any TXID in the pool. An involvement verification of sig on either the sending or receiving address could keep out unrelated parties, if deemed necessary. Then, either the sender or the receiver, whoever was willing to pay for the security, could initiate it. Or leave out the check and anyone could pay the fee to request a lock. This has larger feature possibilities, too...

I've discussed budget systems before this one was implemented. I've discussed it all at length, but anyone who dares speak a work ndt in lockstep with the leadership is a troll and must be silenced! Especially if he is demonstrably correct and has this silly experience stuff...

Long live the Echo Chamber!
 
R

RGXDK

Guest
Lols, I'm perfectly calm. Making up some "state of mind" ad hominem, while trying to invoke the same accusation... Snoflake propaganda doesn't fix anything even f you think it makes you look cool

If a man stands in front of you, stabs out his own eyes, and then declares that he can't see the problem... He is the problem.

1) IX is broken. It was DASH's only real claim to innovation.
2) Tons of time wasted on backwards priorities and simply doing nothing at all.
3) A screwed up budget system governed by clueless rubes.

If you fixed #1, and still had the other problems, it would still work out. But all of this at once... And refusing to address it for 2 years...

I get it. You're emotionally invested and you don't like someone talking bad about your pet... This is exactly the sort of emotion-based silliness that got DASH inn this predicament.
You called me a snowflake, you say the IX is broken, you claim Dash developers have backwards priorities, you say the budget system is screwed up... I'm going to stop here as interacting with you is not a good use of my time.

Good luck and all the best
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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You called me a snowflake, you say the IX is broken, you claim Dash developers have backwards priorities, you say the budget system is screwed up... I'm going to stop here as interacting with you is not a good use of my time.

Good luck and all the best
You obviously aren't used to translating camo's posts :D
I like to keep a SJW/snowflake/leftist count
 
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