Vote: Self-sustainable Decentralized Governance by Blockchain

RenegadeMan

Member
Aug 6, 2014
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I can see this happening with a messed up governmental system where both candidates are the same except for some colors and jokes about each other. I think you will see the masternoders are a smart involved group. The projects will be much more useful than anything happening with a 100+ year government/financial system.

The Ninja site isn't as accurate as this one that Crowning sent a link for:
http://178.254.18.153/~pub/Dash/masternode_payments_stats.html

We already have a 36.8% yes vote on day 2. I would say this is pretty good. If we do start to have issues with low votes, we can move to a lower threshold system with 40% yes votes, but only if the no votes are less than 10%. This still enforces a majority vote. Or maybe Evan can figure out a way to stop payments to non-voting masternodes - that would sure push up the vote %! Or encourage voting by sending a DASH to each masternode that votes. We have a lot of options and can tweak this as time goes on. Fear not.
Thanks for your reply Solarminer. Yes I agree the situation's not the same when considering masternode voters of a game-changing digital currency versus the general public; they're worlds away from each other really. But the apathy thing will still be an issue.

I think your idea on withholding payments to masternodes that don't vote, although it sounds extreme and heavy-handed, would actually put a rocket up EVERYONE and be enormously effective! I'd support that because as an MN owner you're taking part in the provision of services to the Dash network and with that comes a responsibility to help keep development moving along and ensuring Dash keeps evolving at an appropriate pace.

Some good ideas you have.
 

Solarminer

Well-known Member
Apr 4, 2015
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Weird that nobody gets the same percentage... This will not look good. :/
Yeah, this is also been stated on bitcointalk that this will be addressed. Something about when your node was updated to .23. I also see that this will probably be a near unanimous vote anyway, so no recounts for hanging chads.
 

Jeztah

Active Member
Oct 9, 2014
181
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103
I think your idea on withholding payments to masternodes that don't vote, although it sounds extreme and heavy-handed, would actually put a rocket up EVERYONE and be enormously effective! I'd support that because as an MN owner you're taking part in the provision of services to the Dash network and with that comes a responsibility to help keep development moving along and ensuring Dash keeps evolving at an appropriate pace.

Some good ideas you have.
You can't force people to vote. You will get meaningless votes just for the sake of voting.
 

elbereth

Active Member
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Mar 25, 2014
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Jeztah said:
You can't force people to vote. You will get meaningless votes just for the sake of voting.
Here in Peru voting is an obligation. You get fined 25 usd for each voting you skip.
It might force meaningless votes but it is used irl.
 

Jeztah

Active Member
Oct 9, 2014
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Here in Peru voting is an obligation. You get fined 25 usd for each voting you skip.
It might force meaningless votes but it is used irl.
That doesn't make it right dude, just look at our (the US) legal system.
 

drkhouse

Member
Nov 22, 2014
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Hello everyone

I'm sorry to be putting forward a less-than-flattering commentary on this whole process of voting via our MNs but, as theoretically pure and balanced as it is, I can't see this working.

In many democracies around the world, when there's a referendum on some critical issue that requires the voting populace to vote 'YES", those referendums are rarely carried through by the YES voters, the normal outcome is NO, because groups opposing the YES create so much FUD and confusion about potential downside of voting YES, the NOs often unequivocally win from the sheer inertia of the YES vote needing a massive proportion of the voting public that will even take enough interest to carry the motion. An example is Australia where there have been around 44 referendums since federation in 1900 and only 8 of those were carried

It comes from the fact that there'll only ever be a percentage of people that are interested in either a firm YES or NO. For argument's sake, let's say that percentage of people who actually have a view is 75% (which I think is potentially on the high side; in many democracies where life's relatively easy it's likely to be far less) that generally means the 25% who don't hold a view are simply either not going to turn up to the polling booth on the day or leave their ballot paper blank (which is effectively a NO) or just vote NO because either they don't understand what's being voted on or they don't care. So for a YES to be carried, it needs to be voted by more than 66% of that 75% (to get the overall vote above 50%) and this is where the great challenge of most referendums is. To get more than 66% of people voting to vote YES is often a monumental task for the YES campaign. And like I've noted, in reality it's probably much higher than 66% of all voters needing to vote YES as there's likely to be many more people not voting at all than the 25% I've suggested above.

And this is the challenge we're going to have with this whole concept. There will be masternode owners that have jumped straight in and voted immediately, there will be others who're still considering the proposal and discussing aspects of it on these forums prior to voting, there'll be others still thinking "I must get onto that" and a fourth type who haven't even heard about it yet because they're not consistently on these forums. For a proposal to carry, it needs to have a massive YEA vote because there are so many MNs that will just be left at ABSTAIN.

I think we're seeing this phenomenon in the figures already. According to Elbereth's Dashninja MN votes page YEA is currently 28.1%, NAY is 0.2% and ABSTAIN is 71.7%. The sheer inertia involved of needing every MN owner to act and cast their vote is going to make it almost impossible to get YEA votes carried and I'll be surprised if even this first "Self-sustainable Decentralized Governance by Blockchain" proposal to set the whole budgeting system in place is going to be carried.

Maybe we need to think of other ways to do this as I can't see this working effectively for this or future votes on proposals.
Well as you know, money talks. Make sure mn owner's vote within a week or else they won't get paid for future blocks...

Also, if evan pull a 100% solid vote system, it will work. If it's not full proof, the vote system will be disabled.
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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What if MN operators are so annoyed with endless bullshit that they just don't care anymore? What if they go on vacation? What if they die? What if they're in the hospital for 4 months? What if their country turns (more) despotic?

Voting can't be mandatory... There's all kinds of reasons someone might not care to vote, or might not be able... That doesn't mean their node stopped denominating and IXing, so why shouldn't they get paid for that service they can proof they did....?

[facepalm]
 

drkhouse

Member
Nov 22, 2014
79
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48
What if MN operators are so annoyed with endless bullshit that they just don't care anymore? What if they go on vacation? What if they die? What if they're in the hospital for 4 months? What if their country turns (more) despotic?

Voting can't be mandatory... There's all kinds of reasons someone might not care to vote, or might not be able... That doesn't mean their node stopped denominating and IXing, so why shouldn't they get paid for that service they can proof they did....?

[facepalm]
Well it could be an option...
let's say voting is mandatory. But if you know you will be on vacation or dead... or inactive for a long period, their should be an option to indicate "will not be voting for future projects" so your nodes doesn't count in the total masternodes since you won't be able to help the coin And yet you will still be paid for your masternode service.

So the mn's that doesn't vote AND doesn't check that they will be absent, they won't get paid.

I still think this is too much and we should keep it simple: you don't vote? No blocks for you! You can make sure you have access to your mn from mexico if you're on vacation ;).

Or maybe the android cold wallet will let you vote one day! :p
 

raganius

cryptoPag.com
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
What if MN operators are so annoyed with endless bullshit that they just don't care anymore? What if they go on vacation? What if they die? What if they're in the hospital for 4 months? What if their country turns (more) despotic?

Voting can't be mandatory... There's all kinds of reasons someone might not care to vote, or might not be able... That doesn't mean their node stopped denominating and IXing, so why shouldn't they get paid for that service they can proof they did....?

[facepalm]
I love you, camosoul! That's exactly and perfect, as you said, "here's all kinds of reasons someone might not care to vote, or might not be able... That doesn't mean their node stopped denominating and IXing, so why shouldn't they get paid for that service they can proof they did....?"

The community is deciding to give the voting control to the Masternode owners because we believe they are smart, responsible and trustworthy (as a group) enough. To presuppose, at the same time, that these same Masternoders will be too lazy to vote is nonsense...

...from a good intention to a dictatorship there's a small step.
 

Minotaur

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 7, 2014
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What if MN operators are so annoyed with endless bullshit that they just don't care anymore? What if they go on vacation? What if they die? What if they're in the hospital for 4 months? What if their country turns (more) despotic?

Voting can't be mandatory... There's all kinds of reasons someone might not care to vote, or might not be able... That doesn't mean their node stopped denominating and IXing, so why shouldn't they get paid for that service they can proof they did....?

[facepalm]
I agree with you that voting should not be mandatory, it is not even necessary for the purpose of the system. I think what is most important is that everyone has an option to vote if they wanted to. Abstaining basically means you leave the decision to those that are voting, and that is OK too, if that is what you want to do.

The one thing we want to avoid is for the system to become stagnant because of lack of participation. There are many ways to do that we could define a minimum quorum and a time frame to vote. If a proposal you don't like reaches the minimum support required to pass you are free to vote against it before the time window closes, same if a proposal you like is losing and already reached the minimum quorum you should hurry to vote to help support it before the time window closes. This is just one idea, I believe there are several options but mandatory voting is not possible as the service that people provide does not relate to voting in any way.
 

paperThin

Member
Jun 13, 2014
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What if MN operators are so annoyed with endless bullshit that they just don't care anymore? What if they go on vacation? What if they die? What if they're in the hospital for 4 months? What if their country turns (more) despotic?

Voting can't be mandatory... There's all kinds of reasons someone might not care to vote, or might not be able... That doesn't mean their node stopped denominating and IXing, so why shouldn't they get paid for that service they can proof they did....?

[facepalm]
Agreed. Here's another reason it won't work:
the new "auto vote nay" script :)
 
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qwizzie

Well-known Member
Aug 6, 2014
1,720
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Updated https://dashninja.pl/mnvotes.html with 24h and 1 week graphs (the 1 week one is empty for the moment).
Even if I don't have "accurate" figures those are the ones returned by the 4 daemons.
Really nice graphs you added there, i have a question about the accuracy of the votes :

if you compare your site with crowing's site there is some 10% difference in the votes, do we know what exactly causes this and more importantly
can or will it be fixed for future voting proposals?
 

dark_wanderer

Member
Nov 12, 2014
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Some thoughts about the voting:

1) Someone who does not run a masternode cannot vote. His voice will never be heard.
2) Is it true that the total share of the masternodes owned by big investors and the dev team/DASH functionaries exceeds 50%? If this is true, and given item 1, the whole voting process becomes redundant. If I am not mistaken, there is at least one big investor who owns ca. 600 masternodes or 25% at the monent.
3) If several people have shares in one masternode, how should the owners of that masternode vote before the masternode itself can vote? How to estimate the number of such masternodes?
4) Project budget is proposed to be measured in US dollar which is backed up by nothing and can be created by FED in nanoseconds out of thin air. What about using gold/silver instead (1 ounce, 50 g)?
 
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moli

Grizzled Member
Aug 5, 2014
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Some thoughts about the voting:

1) Someone who does not run a masternode cannot vote. His voice will never be heard.
This will encourage them to set up a MN.
2) Is it true that the total share of the masternodes owned by big investors and the dev team/DASH functionaries exceeds 50%? If this is true, and given item 1, the whole voting process becomes redundant. If I am not mistaken, there is at least one big investor who owns ca. 600 masternodes or 25% at the monent.
Not sure but I don't think the dev team owns too many MNs. I think the majority of MNs are still in the hands of many different people.
3) If several people have shares in one masternode, how should the owners of that masternode vote before the masternode itself can vote? How to estimate the number of such masternodes?
They can work together to agree on a vote. Probably something like if 5 people own a MN, and 3 say "no", 2 say "yes", then the vote is "no".
4) Project budget is proposed to be measured in US dollar which is backed up by nothing and can be created by FED in nanoseconds out of thin air. What about using gold/silver instead (1 ounce, 50 g)?
Is gold/silver a monetary unit in any country?
 

elbereth

Active Member
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Really nice graphs you added there, i have a question about the accuracy of the votes :

if you compare your site with crowing's site there is some 10% difference in the votes, do we know what exactly causes this and more importantly
can or will it be fixed for future voting proposals?
No idea, I am no core developper. From what I understood it is because I updated to .23 with 24h delay.

Still if this is going to work we need a more robust system with multiple concurrent votes and robust/consistent results accross the network (votes rebroadcast or blockchain votes).
 

Minotaur

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 7, 2014
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It is easy to confuse a market with a democracy, please remember that the purpose of this system is to allow decentralized decision making and each stake holder has a bond of trust with the network through the collateral that he has tied up in masternodes, the higher the risk the person is taking the higher the weight of his vote. All voices are heard, just proportionately to the risk that voice is taking. This is more akin to a share holders assembly than an government election system. The cool thing about Dash system is it is decentralized and anyone willing to invest can set up nodes at any time by getting coins in the market and then with that risk will come the power to vote on the direction of the coin.

The system is also very healthy we know who our largest holder is, that person bought all his coins in the open markets, so he is taking a big risk, and although he obviously has influence his nodes are not even close to allowing him to approve things on his own he still needs to compromise and work with the community, plus is in his best interests since he is taking the largest risk.

It is a great solution and every coin will face this challenge of how to make coordinated decisions and keep moving forward, is a very hard issue and Dash is pioneering by creating an innovative solution instead of just ignoring the problem.
 

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Some thoughts about the voting:

1) Someone who does not run a masternode cannot vote. His voice will never be heard.
2) Is it true that the total share of the masternodes owned by big investors and the dev team/DASH functionaries exceeds 50%? If this is true, and given item 1, the whole voting process becomes redundant. If I am not mistaken, there is at least one big investor who owns ca. 600 masternodes or 25% at the monent.
3) If several people have shares in one masternode, how should the owners of that masternode vote before the masternode itself can vote? How to estimate the number of such masternodes?
4) Project budget is proposed to be measured in US dollar which is backed up by nothing and can be created by FED in nanoseconds out of thin air. What about using gold/silver instead (1 ounce, 50 g)?
Along with what Minotaur said:

1. is not true because there will be an open forum for everyone and anyone to participate on each project. The people participating don't need to own a masternode, but can have great effect on the projects. Their input and insights will be the backbone of the system. They will be the ones to convince masternode owners which way to vote.

2. If they had that many of the masternodes, we wouldn't still be waiting for 51% of the vote! No, I'd be surprised if all together, they had as much as Mr. No. 1, who bought all his coins mid to late 2014. That was an investor, and not one of the team members as this person had big bucks even then to buy so many coins.

3. That has to be worked out by the service provider in such a way that makes his clients happy.

4. I don't see why not, except that gold is very volitile, silver is less so, so perhaps that would work? Even so, anything would work, as the purpose is to take the risk out of the contract from both sides (if DASH price goes down, we'll have to pay more toward the project, but if DASH prices rise, we'll have to pay less. It'll depend on the DASH market) So in the end, we could perhaps make it so that the payment is in a defined currency. Any currency that they developer wants to use. The contract will still be paid in DASH, but at the equivalent of the currency he wants, as long as there is an exchange for that currency.

I gotta say, I'm surprised that it's taking so long to hit 51%. Maybe we should make a vote-many video tutorial so that Mr. No. 1 can vote. I suspect he hasn't done so yet?? Then again... who knows? LOL
 

InTheWoods

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Oct 12, 2014
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Getting an error when trying to vote:



masternode vote yea

Error upon calling SetKey

OP says to copy masternode.conf to the dash folder but no idea where to find the file. Flare runs the masternode servers for me.
 
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AjM

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Jun 23, 2014
1,341
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Finland
Getting an error when trying to vote:

masternode vote yea

Error upon calling SetKey

OP says to copy masternode.conf to the dash folder but no idea where to find the file. Flare runs the masternode servers for me.
Select one which suits to you:
To vote, simply copy your masternode.conf into your dash directory, open the software then
execute the command “masternode vote-many yea” or “masternode vote-many nay”.

To vote with a single masternode you can use the command “masternode vote yea” or “masternode vote nay”.
 

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
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Mar 9, 2014
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I just checked Crowning's chart here: http://178.254.18.153/~pub/Dash/masternode_payments_stats.html and it now shows only 1.65% voted (all YEA)

I counted all the YEAs on my masternode, and got 165 nodes voting YEA.

Obviously, they don't add up, weird the number is similar, but the answer is not at all.

So what happened? Did the slate accidentally get cleared? Why can't we get a proper answer?
 

crowning

Well-known Member
May 29, 2014
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Alpha Centauri Bc
I just checked Crowning's chart here: http://178.254.18.153/~pub/Dash/masternode_payments_stats.html and it now shows only 1.65% voted (all YEA)

I counted all the YEAs on my masternode, and got 165 nodes voting YEA.

Obviously, they don't add up, weird the number is similar, but the answer is not at all.

So what happened? Did the slate accidentally get cleared? Why can't we get a proper answer?
I had to re-boot the server where my voting daemon (v0.11.2.23 of course) runs, and for reasons only Evan knows it's now stuck at 43 YEA, 0 NAY and 2557 ABSTAIN.

I think I'll have to look into that code soon...
 

TanteStefana

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Ugh, something is buggy there. For all we know, we're way past 50%, LOL. That would make more sense. I don't think anyone's daemon is showing similar (correlating) results.