The Dark Elephant in the room. Bad Pools , Enforcing

mattmct

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Hey guys,
I decided to post this in the private section..

Someone echo'ed a thought I had previously, and it raises a good question. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg7608717#msg7608717
A note to the developer:
Evan, it's time to pull the trigger on payment enforcement. MN payments have dropped to about 50% of all blocks as lots of unknown dark pools that don't want to pay are growing their hash rate. I'm sure some pools are advertising 'still getting the full payout' to DRK miners. Whenever there is an inequality such as this, it doesn't take long for the smart money to work around it. See for yourself:
http://drk.poolhash.org/poolhash.html
After the soft fork, we have been lucky that the pools which have upgraded have. As the guy mentioned above, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of pool opperators haven't updated (won't) and miners might move to a pool which isn't making MN payments, IE paying out 25% bonus.

It would be very sad, and bad for Dark if the "bad" pools which don't / haven't updated get more hashpower and more network power because the miners are moving to a pool which effectively pays out 25% more The full 5, rather than 4.

Even worse, I'd hate to see a change in direction of some bad pools even rolling back, so they payout 5.

Now THE question. When is it time to start enforcing? When we feel that the most have changed over? We will never reach 80-100%.

More could still change over for sure, but the bad pools could attract more miners and with it, more network share. I'm just hoping things get better and not worse,....but greedy pools and miners could make things worse in time. "mine here, 5 DRK blocks, rather than 4"....

I've been maintaining a list of pools here https://darkcointalk.org/threads/updated-pools-running-0-9-11-4-5-paying-masternode-payments.1597/

yidakee is hunting down bad pools here: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/ju...-collectively-help-drk-before-next-fork.1662/

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/pr-needed-during-slow-times.1651/ To touch on this post, some info on current plan would be awesome.

Cheers eduffield and everyone working so hard.
 
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eltito

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I believe Evan is hoping to introduce enforcement with RC4. He mentioned after the first attempt at launching RC3 that we may need to use shaming as a tactic to get bad pools to update. I think we can build on yidakee's thread and launch a mini-campaign on the forums and our social media sites as far as that goes. For now I think we should make that our focus.

That will hopefully make some headway, but obviously enforcement is the only sure solution. Evan has mentioned to me that, in the meantime, he could put code in that would blacklist blocks from bad pools, but I think that is at least one or two steps beyond where we are now.
 
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raze

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I'm not sure what's up with Coinotron. It looks like they started paying MNs, then stopped for about 8 hours, then just started again. :what:
 

mattmct

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I'm not sure what's up with Coinotron. It looks like they started paying MNs, then stopped for about 8 hours, then just started again. :what:
Now that's interesting. That's one of my fears. An honest coin could see they are loosing miners to pools "paying 25% more" and then switch back to an old darkcoind to get 5 DRK.

What level is the GO level? We will never reach 100%.
 

vertoe

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To be honest, let me speak freely. Cryptos are a tough economy. People are doing everything to get 1% more, or 3%, yet to consider 25%! I'm running 20 masternodes and I am getting around 20 DRK per day and I know this is a voluntary donation because the payments are not enforced yet. If I would be running a pool with multiple GH power and see my miners are running to other pools because they pay 25% more, I would also roll back my pool's version and do some good PR for my pool.

TL;DR flagging pools as "bad actors" is idealism and will fail in the long run. People go were the money is. +1 enabling enforcement sooner than late.
 

vertoe

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Oh and in addition there was the suggest to start using the enforcement trigger for 3h / day, 6 h/day and so on... This will hurt the big pools and forces them to upgrade ASAP.
 

fernando

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Oh and in addition there was the suggest to start using the enforcement trigger for 3h / day, 6 h/day and so on... This will hurt the big pools and forces them to upgrade ASAP.
I like that. Also, I would just announce that sometime during the next xx hours we are going to start enforcing. As little information to cheaters as possible so their life is more difficult. I understand what they are doing, but being on the other side I can't sympathise.
 

mattmct

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My only fear with the 3hr/s a day type thing is.....if it stops working, then starts working, uninformed people may just assume something is wrong with the network....getting rejected shares. That along with the broken blockchain explore / pool. It doesn't look good at all.

How about a deadline to update before a certain "enforcement day" ? If they don't update, their blocks get rejected. They then HAVE to update, and it's their fault if they didn't.
 

mattmct

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To be honest, let me speak freely. Cryptos are a tough economy. People are doing everything to get 1% more, or 3%, yet to consider 25%! I'm running 20 masternodes and I am getting around 20 DRK per day and I know this is a voluntary donation because the payments are not enforced yet. If I would be running a pool with multiple GH power and see my miners are running to other pools because they pay 25% more, I would also roll back my pool's version and do some good PR for my pool.

TL;DR flagging pools as "bad actors" is idealism and will fail in the long run. People go were the money is. +1 enabling enforcement sooner than late.
vertoe, you understand my point exactly. People are greedy, and shortsighted. They just want as much DRK as they can, and don't give a thought about harming the coin and it's overall value.

Right now people are viewing it as optional, and are at a disadvantage paying the optional fee = less out to their miners and their own cut. Pools have to be competitive, and miners want as much as they can. My main worry is we start seeing less pools paying out 4 rather than 5.

Bring on enforcement day! lol
 

eltito

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My only fear with the 3hr/s a day type thing is.....if it stops working, then starts working, uninformed people may just assume something is wrong with the network....getting rejected shares. That along with the broken blockchain explore / pool. It doesn't look good at all.
That is exactly what would happen. I think it's an all or nothing proposition.
 

mattmct

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That is exactly what would happen. I think it's an all or nothing proposition.
Lets go all in then. I say we warn the pools to upgrade. Then give them a deadline of when enforcement comes. "Enforment day" ;). Then it's up to them if they want a broken pool or not.
 
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splawik21

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Just look here: http://drk.poolhash.org/poolhash.html
There are many unknown pools which dont pay 20% x MN. But!
There are many KNOWN pools!

These are last 12h:
* HASHFASTER - INFORMED
* BLACKCOINPOOL - INFORMED
* MULTIPOOLUS - INFORMED - [email protected]
* COINKINGIO - INFORMED - irc #coinking talked with Jake
* COINOTRONCOM - INFORMED - [email protected]
* GHASHIO - INFORMED - ghash.io
* DRKCIF8COM - UPDATED
* DEDICATEDPOOLCOM - INFORMED - binaryclock
* HASHRATEEU - INFORMED - prozacsf84
* SWITCHERCOINCOM - INFORMED - https://switchercoin.com/support

I took the action and started to find the ways to inform the owners of these pools so they update ASAP.
No time to loose.
Earlier they update the more often the blocks will be paid, the confidence of the MNs owners will rise and the enforcment will not hurt so much.DONE and waiting results
Searching for UNKNOWN pools.
 
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splawik21

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multipool.us has updated
 

splawik21

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* COINOTRONCOM - INFORMED - [email protected]
look at block 95039

and updated ;)
Still looking at these unknown pools.... searching google and forums...but it hard... meaby it is some solo farms?

EDIT: 95034 - they have installed old again ???!!!???
 
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splawik21

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I think that no pool want to get orphans...so I wrote a msg to all of them :)

Hello,

We`ve just seen on the blockchain that your pool has not been updated yet to
the newest wallet.
We`d like to inform you that with coming enforcment all pools which will not
update will get all found blocks as orphans.
We expect you will update as soon as possible.
LINK: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg7616031#msg7616031

Thank you for collaboration.

splawik21
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mattmct

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I think that no pool want to get orphans...so I wrote a msg to all of them :)

Hello,

We`ve just seen on the blockchain that your pool has not been updated yet to
the newest wallet.
We`d like to inform you that with coming enforcment all pools which will not
update will get all found blocks as orphans.
We expect you will update as soon as possible.
LINK: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg7616031#msg7616031

Thank you for collaboration.

splawik21
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Hero member! Honestly awesome work for being so proactive.
 

splawik21

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Thank you, it need some work to do when everybody else is sleeping I here at 4:05 a.m. looking for bad actors ;)
look @ EDITed post of mine at coinotron
 

fernando

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I dont understand why we are not enforcing...
Reading eltito 's announcement I understand that Evan is not confident about the enforcement protocol not breaking the network. Too bad, between bad actors and variance playing against me, my MNs get less payments than a bunch of dead prostitutes.
 

splawik21

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splawik21 Thanks a lot, that's great work!!

I'm worried that now that we have announced that we won't enforce until RC4 (see announcement here: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/status-update-7-1-2014.1675/) some pools may revert to older versions. We need to keep an eye even in those who were paying.
Fernando we can`t obligate them to do things, if Evan is not sure yet, we could only msg them some of them didn`t know even, they told me. So after update if they don`t revert more coins for MNs operators even if 1 pool update and do not revert is a success :)
 

fernando

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Fernando we can`t obligate them to do things, if Evan is not sure yet, we could only msg them some of them didn`t know even, they told me. So after update if they don`t revert more coins for MNs operators even if 1 pool update and do not revert is a success :)
Absolutely, I'd say that even those reverting can be a success because at least you are starting to profile them and know them, and that is very valuable.
 
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eltito

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I would imagine we won't have much shady crap like that going on from the reputable pools. The "unknowns" are going to do what they want anyway.

Evan made the decision that RC3 enforcement wasn't going to happen. Once that decision was made, the only alternative to public disclosure was to basically lie to people by threatening to switch it on, with no intention of ever doing so. That is shady in its own right, never mind the fact that people would quickly have caught on - at which point we lose all credibility on the matter.
 

fernando

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I would imagine we won't have much shady crap like that going on from the reputable pools. The "unknowns" are going to do what they want anyway.

Evan made the decision that RC3 enforcement wasn't going to happen. Once that decision was made, the only alternative to public disclosure was to basically lie to people by threatening to switch it on, with no intention of ever doing so. That is shady in its own right, never mind the fact that people would quickly have caught on - at which point we lose all credibility on the matter.
Yeah, I guess there was not another alternative.

As I said in another thread, bad actors probably had already figured out we were not enforcing... I hate when someone raises the bet and I'm half-bluffing, but the intelligent thing to do is drop the cards and wait for the next round, not going all in with a mid pair.